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Pip zero points

spart10187
spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
edited June 2017 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi this is first time I've posted on the website.
my son suffers from severe anxiety, depression, panic disorder which has basically taken over his life. He is 17
He is currently under care of Camhs he has a direct support worker and having CBT and he is also under the gp for meds he doesn't leave the house without me and struggles on a daily basis with his conditions. 
We applied for pip and he got zero points for both elements I have submitted a mantatory reconsideration approx 4 weeks ago and submitted further medical evidence and argued and pointed out discrepancies in the assessor report as a lot of it was in correct backing up with further evidence. 
I phoned DWP yesterday for an update and I was told the assessor reviewing my case has gone back to the original physiotherapist who assessed my son but the lady wouldn't say why. I felt the physiotherapist that saw my son had provided her report and that was it! what more input could she now have? 

Thanks. 


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Comments

  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @Spart10187 Hello I think I can help explain what is happening. There are 2 different organizations involved in PIP claims. DWP administer the benefit but they are not medically trained so the assessments are done by Private companies contracted by the government. Assessors working for these companies see the claimants face to face and afterwards write a report with suggested scores for all the PIP descriptors. The report is sent to DWP where Decision Makers or Case Workers as they are now called take the scores and send out the Decision. If a claimant disagrees with that decision they send in a Mandatory Reconsideration for the claim to be looked at again as you have done for your son. DWP then send everything back to the assessment company where a different Assessor will go over all the evidence including any further evidence that has been sent with the MR letter and they report back to DWP as to whether any changes should be made to the original award. Whoever told you it was the same assessor it was sent to is wrong. May be DWP told you they'd sent it back to the assessment company and you assumed it would be the same assessor who saw your son who would be looking at it again? Anyhow the 1st assessor's report is a PA4 and the 2nd assessor fills in a PA5 which should be signed by a different person (Health Professional). You can request a copy of the PA5 to check who did this 2nd review. I hope that clarifies what is happening at the moment. 
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    @wildlife thank you so much for clarifying that to me.
    to be honest when you ring DWP if they don't have anything to say they want you off the phone as quick as possible. 
    Surely they could have explained this to me slightly better. It did sound like they were going back to the same assessor for more information, and that's probably why I got my wire crossed and assumed it would be the same physiotherapist that saw my son. I've found the whole process really daunting and spent hours researching as how to to do the mandatory reconsideration as my local citizens advice bureau said it would be better if I did the mandatory reconsideration myself  and if we wanted to take it to an appeal if we were unsuccessful then seek advice from them. 
  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @spart10187 Glad I could help. If your son's MR is kept the same you will be advised to go to Appeal but at the same time while you are waiting for an Appeal date you can still try and change the decision by first making a complaint to the assessment company about the lies and inconsistencies on the assessment report, then by asking for a call back from a Decision Maker at DWP you can tell them you've complained and ask if they'll look at it yet again. You may have to write another letter and/or send in yet more evidence but if you feel by then that they are ignoring the medical evidence you've already sent tell them this. Most people at this stage either give in or just accept they have to go to appeal but I kept going and got a 2nd MR when they did agree to change the award. Good Luck whatever you have to do. The current system is corrupt and designed to turn people down and hope they'll just accept the decision.  
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    @wildlife again thanks for the advice really appreciate this should I look to make the complaint about the assessment company now or should I wait to see what decision is made I guess there's no harm in making a complaint now? What do you think? 
    Sorry just another question would I make a complaint and go through each descriptor they gave my son nil points on or should I just a general complaints letter stating I'm not happy with the report. The comments they made were he didn't need prompting to answer, he did, he went to a mainstream school when he didn't, he was shaking like a leaf, breathing heavily and a lot of other discrepancies which I was really shocked with. I wanted to complain but I read on another forum that it's best not to get personal and call out the assessors saying they are lying so I did a witness statement with everything I disagreed with that happened on the day, I got around by saying what the assessor may not know or have picked up due to the short appointment I didn't go all guns blazing.  I agree with you the process is not for the faint hearted and definitely corrupt in more ways than one. Thanks again 
  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @spart10187 Try and do it now especially as they still have your paperwork with them while they reassess your son's claim.The advice not to get personal is for DWP and not for the assessment company. You have to see the ongoing claim with DWP and the complaint to ATOS/CAPITA separately. About what to put in a letter of complaint I would advise you to concentrate on the written report rather than the assessment itself because they'll reject it if they can't see what you're not happy about in writing. Also only complain about the medical decisions that you have evidence for as anything else, although you know it's wrong, is your word against the assessor's. I have to tell you that you won't get a quick result from your complaint but it's important to do it as it helps DWP to know you disagree with their decision and you're more likely to be successful with the Mandatory Reconsideration. I would mention the school as that's factual and can be proved, and is important in showing your son is disabled and that the assessor got a significant piece of information wrong. Send them evidence of his school, something with the school address and his name on if you can. Good Luck...
  • BenefitsTrainingCo
    BenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,622 Pioneering
    Hi spart10187,

    I don't have anything to add to wildlife's advice really....If the MR request is not successful, you should definitely consider going to the tribunal, decisions often get overturned there & although it can be daunting you will get a lot of support on here.

    As regards the complaint, I agree that it is worth complaining because whatever the outcome of the MR, the report is still wrong and both it and the assessment itself sound distressing. It's also helpful for both the MR and appeal to show that you disagree with the report so much that you have felt compelled to complain.

    Will


    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Hi just a quick update I did make a formal complaint to the assessment company which is still ongoing. 
    Regarding the mandatory reconsideration that is also ongoing DWP have requested some information from my sons GP. 
    Checked with the surgery the requested information has been sent off so still waiting to hear back I find the process really frustrating. 
    Do you know what information @wildlife they would have requested from the GP? The secretary said it was a form? Thanks
  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @spart10187 So glad you are getting somewhere with your son's claim. I'm sorry I don't know what information will have been requested. If you're really curious your surgery should be willing to let you have a copy of the form if you ask them. Unless they didn't keep a copy, but I'm sure it will be just what they need to know so things look promising. Remember when you phone DWP you only speak to an advisor who can't tell you a lot except what stage your son's claim is at. But you can ask to have a call back from a Decision Maker for a more in depth conversation about the claim. Especially if they don't make any changes after having more information. You can ask what the problem is and why they're not accepting medical evidence. Hopefully you won't need to do that but it's useful to know you can. Good Luck and keep us posted. Fingers crossed for a better result than you've had so far..  
  • rosie55
    rosie55 Member Posts: 40 Listener
    Does it basically go on what the assessors at the medical say then .
    I thought atos  just see you but its then down to dwp to decide what points and that you get x
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Thanks @wildlife I did quiz the secretary at my sons gp she said it was a form but wouldn't say much more she said I had to make an appointment with the doctor himself for him to tell me what he had said which I thought was a waste of an appointment I will ask when I take my son down next time. Thanks for the info I might ask for the decision maker to contact me however I did call as I had some further evidence from the psychologist and wanted to forward that on to the decision maker I was told as it wasn't forwarded on with the original reconsideration it may not be looked at however as I had put in for the reconsideration in May I advised I had now more evidence, but it seemed they weren't too keen should I just send a copy in? 
  • Matilda
    Matilda Member Posts: 2,590 Disability Gamechanger
    @rosie55

    The DWP more or less rubber stamp what the assessor says.  DWP draw heavily on the assessor's report to make their decision.
  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    edited August 2017
    @spart10187, It's always best to send in evidence with the MR letter but for future reference you don't have to despite what the DWP advisor said. If you didn't have the evidence then you couldn't have sent it. In your case now although you've rung once about the new evidence you didn't get a proper answer as to whether or not it's too late for it to be used so you could send it anyway and then  ask to speak to a decision maker, or just ring first to find out exactly what is happening with your son's claim. If the MR has been sent out then it will be too late. Hopefully they had enough evidence to use but if the MR is still being processed you'll be able to tell them about the new evidence and arrange to send it to them. Sorry if this sounds confusing but it's difficult to suggest what you should do when I don't know what stage the MR is at.
         If the MR has been done maybe they'll tell you over the phone what the result was and you'll be able to tell them about the new evidence and they might agree to look at the claim again. Tell them your son would not cope very well with the stress of having to go to appeal as part of your argument to get them to use the new evidence. Hope you can get this sorted. Good Luck.. 
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Thanks @wildlife according to the adviser no decision had been made yet the medical evidence from gp has just been sent to the decision maker. Yes I didn't have that particular evidence when I made the MR I will send it in and see what happens. Thanks again. 
  • wildlife
    wildlife Member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @spart10187 OK am a little clearer, yes it's definitely worth sending but you still need clarification as to whether the decision maker is aware there is more evidence on the way and that they need to wait till it arrives. So it still would be worth talking to a Decision Maker, bearing in mind it might not be the actual one who is dealing with the claim. However it will be noted and the message will be passed on. You may be able to discuss the claim at the same time and why it was rejected. I found the decision makers were actually very nice but it's their job just to go with what the assessor recommends, but if they are given obvious information that contradicts the assessor's report they are prepared to be reasonable about looking into it. Hope that happens for you.  
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Hello @wildlife, unfortunately my son didn't get enough points he got 4 daily living and 2 for mobility. 
    Atleast more than before as he got zero. 
    I spoke with the decision maker today and the next stage would be tribunal hearing although DM did say they would look at all the evidence again before going to tribunal hearing.
    The DM said that the GP evidence was helpful but did not elaborate on the daily living descriptors which they wouldn't as they only see you for 5 minutes it seems we needed to provide more evidence I provided a letter from his CAMHS my sons support worker however it didn't go into depth about the descriptors.  
    My son is currently having CBT treatment. I provided a detail statement of his daily struggles what he can and can't do and I'm unsure apart from myself who will able to vouch for activities such as not able to cook a meal and dressing and showering it seemed they didn't want to just take my word for it they want someone else to comment. 
    Im slightly lost who to ask to comment on these descriptors I have asked his CAMHS case worker if she can help but not sure what else to do.
    The DM was lovely she did say if we could provide this extra information with the appeal it will be looked at again before the hearing. 
    Does anyone else struggle to gather information regards to mental health and who is the best person to comment or help 
    Thanks in advance 

  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    I also explained to the DM that it will be too stressful for my son to attend the assessment, not sure if I should leave it and reapply after a few months as the appeal seems daunting. 
  • ourvoices
    ourvoices Member Posts: 47 Connected

    Hi @spart10187. Try not to give up, 67% of tribunals are awarded in favour of the claimants.

    The DMs should take into account all the evidence and not just the evidence of your GP and any other professionals involved with your son's treatment:

    The following excerpt is from the latest review of PIP:

    The Review also found that some forms of evidence, particularly those from carers or family members, were not always given sufficient weight with evidence from health care professionals being considered more objective. The Department should seek to ensure that the evidence of carers and family members is given due weight in the assessment process, while recognising that all sources of evidence should be probed and tested. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/604097/pip-assessment-second-independent-review.pdfI hope this proves useful.
  • spart10187
    spart10187 Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Thank you @ourvoices it seemed with the conversation with the DM was they needed more evidence but from professionals I feel like I've got all I could I've got evidence from his support worker , gp, plastic surgeon report injury he sustained, as a child, cbt appointment letter but not sure what more I can provide I am thinking possibly going to see a private physiotherapist to get my own evidence. Thanks 
  • knowy0151
    knowy0151 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    Hi this is first time I've posted on the website.
    my son suffers from severe anxiety, depression, panic disorder which has basically taken over his life. He is 17
    He is currently under care of Camhs he has a direct support worker and having CBT and he is also under the gp for meds he doesn't leave the house without me and struggles on a daily basis with his conditions. 
    We applied for pip and he got zero points for both elements I have submitted a mantatory reconsideration approx 4 weeks ago and submitted further medical evidence and argued and pointed out discrepancies in the assessor report as a lot of it was in correct backing up with further evidence. 
    I phoned DWP yesterday for an update and I was told the assessor reviewing my case has gone back to the original physiotherapist who assessed my son but the lady wouldn't say why. I felt the physiotherapist that saw my son had provided her report and that was it! what more input could she now have? 

    Thanks. 



    Hi this is first time I've posted on the website.
    my son suffers from severe anxiety, depression, panic disorder which has basically taken over his life. He is 17
    He is currently under care of Camhs he has a direct support worker and having CBT and he is also under the gp for meds he doesn't leave the house without me and struggles on a daily basis with his conditions. 
    We applied for pip and he got zero points for both elements I have submitted a mantatory reconsideration approx 4 weeks ago and submitted further medical evidence and argued and pointed out discrepancies in the assessor report as a lot of it was in correct backing up with further evidence. 
    I phoned DWP yesterday for an update and I was told the assessor reviewing my case has gone back to the original physiotherapist who assessed my son but the lady wouldn't say why. I felt the physiotherapist that saw my son had provided her report and that was it! what more input could she now have? 

    Thanks. 



  • knowy0151
    knowy0151 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    Hi this is first time I've posted on the website.
    my son suffers from severe anxiety, depression, panic disorder which has basically taken over his life. He is 17
    He is currently under care of Camhs he has a direct support worker and having CBT and he is also under the gp for meds he doesn't leave the house without me and struggles on a daily basis with his conditions. 
    We applied for pip and he got zero points for both elements I have submitted a mantatory reconsideration approx 4 weeks ago and submitted further medical evidence and argued and pointed out discrepancies in the assessor report as a lot of it was in correct backing up with further evidence. 
    I phoned DWP yesterday for an update and I was told the assessor reviewing my case has gone back to the original physiotherapist who assessed my son but the lady wouldn't say why. I felt the physiotherapist that saw my son had provided her report and that was it! what more input could she now have? 

    Thanks. 


    Hi i had the same done to me,physio reveiwed me and i was stripped of all with No point.
    also he lied made stuff up.I asked for a mandatory decision on the whole form and shocked i got it all back.i only sent them the same letter i did weeks before from my GP.
    some there is hope if not go to Appeal 
    goodluck
    Read more at https://community.scope.org.uk/profile/spart10187#LCmmsvCy1ToMaCgh.99

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