PIP, DLA and AA
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ias complaint result

rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
edited November 2017 in PIP, DLA and AA
i received a copy of this from my MP -and it was all ****-basically calling me a liar-said they could not comment mments  were what i told him-tho they used more complex vocabulary,if they cant comment on what i said cos not present how can they  comment that  what the assessor said is correct-when they were not present,he did lie and twist things around.


MP  in her letter to IAS put my complaint across but it was my client says that.....,Why does everyone put everything in third tense-
gp's .,MP .everything is "she says she has,...."  not she does have........

can anyone advise me how i approach this?do i go through each part and comment on it say why it is incorrect,



Replies

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Start with the DWP PIP provider guidance and identify the things they breached from there. Usual one is doing a functional assessment when no need and with no specifc verbal consent needed. Concentrate on factual stuff. Do not get into accusations of lying and dishonesty or use emotive language. Legally you cannot possibly prove them and they effectively discredit your case. Using neutral language and referring only to factual stuff will assist hugely. 

    Identify the profession of the HCP; ask for their registration and professional body. Unlikely to be needed and mostly irrelevant but if you can find serious ethical breaches then a further complaint to the professional body at least gets recorded. I must emphasise this is all unlikely though.

    Waste of time going via your MP. Case will be handled by one of their staff. Generally young, keen inexperienced kids with no tools in the box to know what they’re asking or whether the answer is BS. Also the MP has no weight with a private company. There would have to be a mass revolt for a private company to be dropped as a provider and one case isn’t going to do it. 
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Hi Mike

    true about MP staff-they have no clue-
    regarding THE IAS issue-the author of the response stated that they could not comment on what was said at the assessment as not present which is contradictory btu when it was the assessor's report- everything he recorded was said to be an accurate account of what I told him and how i portrayed my conditiosn affect me-they cant know that as they were not present ,
    -re what he was "observed to see " -laying papers on floor and sorting through them.

    I have no  help re presenting this and i have difficutly understanding their guideance-not straight forward language .
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Member Posts: 608 Pioneering
    I was told the same thing "oh we don't lie". Read my report and you'll see there are a stupid amount of inconsistencies. 
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    can i read your report?
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    mike mikehughescq said:
    Start with the DWP PIP provider guidance and identify the things they breached from there. Usual one is doing a functional assessment when no need and with no specifc verbal consent needed. Concentrate on factual stuff. Do not get into accusations of lying and dishonesty or use emotive language. Legally you cannot possibly prove them and they effectively discredit your case. Using neutral language and referring only to factual stuff will assist hugely. 

    Identify the profession of the HCP; ask for their registration and professional body. Unlikely to be needed and mostly irrelevant but if you can find serious ethical breaches then a further complaint to the professional body at least gets recorded. I must emphasise this is all unlikely though.

    Waste of time going via your MP. Case will be handled by one of their staff. Generally young, keen inexperienced kids with no tools in the box to know what they’re asking or whether the answer is BS. Also the MP has no weight with a private company. There would have to be a mass revolt for a private company to be dropped as a provider and one case isn’t going to do it. 
    can i send you the report-is there a way of sending private message
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Sorry, I’ve no idea. Still getting to grips with the site. Better to get advice face to face locally though.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Click on second icon under your name and select new message

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    @rainbow58 I have been through all this last year. My 1st complaint was rejected without an investigation saying the same as yours about things in the assessment can't be proved. So I wrote back still saying what I objected to but making that suggestions for change and then I made another complaint just about what was written on my report that I could prove was wrong according to my medical evidence that the assessor had at the time. It was still rejected saying the report met the DWP guidelines for assessors which is online on the Gov.uk site. Does your letter say you can now refer your complaint to ICE? If so I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle with IAS. I've given my complaint to ICE and given them more info. by comparing my report to the DWP Guidelines it's about all you can do. But they have a huge backlog of complaints on their waiting list. If you know the profession of your assessor which should be on your assessment report you can find their registration online but again it's only to check he/she is registered. If not you can add this to your complaint. Let's hope they get rid of these corrupt assessment companies asap and expose them for the lying and cheating so & so's that many of the assessors are. 
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    hi there Wildlife -yes i do know his profession.yes it did say the next step was ICE -but at the moment i have no support re this and not sure if i can cope with it all-with this -tribunal and **** GP who thinks having a croaky voice for three months is not a concern .when told its too painful to eat with pressure against stomach -said you need to eat more .

    its  all lies and unfair unjustified -the claim form asks how our conditions affect us-what we can cant do-and all that was not taken into consideration.I was for 18 years on DLA and for IB/ESA-they are claiming PIP is a new benefit -it is not-it is a revamped DLA.ESA is a new benefit but my IB  was automatically switched to ESA .The questions are exactly the same for care and slightly different for mobility.

    re things cant be proved-common sense -no one would lay their papers on the floor and sort through them on the floor

    i was told at tribunal in 2005 i would not have to attend any more assessments -dont know if i should mention that and that i had been awarded DLA indefinitely for care-they cant just ignore that,
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    checked the register of paramedics-only two with his name -both registered from 01/09/2017. my assessment was in august-is that concrete evidence he was not a registered paramedic?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Afraid PIP is an entirely new benefit and the conditions most definitely are not anything like the same at all. You can ask at the phone call stage for your DLA evidence to be taken into account but it’s relevance will vary. 

    Length of award can be very relevant, especially if your conditions are degenerative or you know you have exhausted treatments etc. However, it’s not relevant unless you raise it. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    PIP tribunal in my case placed a lot of store by my DLA medical evidence which DWP had asked If I wanted included with my claim.  And tribunal themselves raised the issue of my degenerative disease and so awarded me PIP with no end date.
  • JusticeJustice Member Posts: 206 Pioneering
    @rainbow58. They have to re register every so many years( Can't remember exactly how often), so this may just show the updated registration, if you want to know for sure then telephone them and ask if he was registered previously.
  • JusticeJustice Member Posts: 206 Pioneering
    @rainbow58 forgot to say that our MP's secretary was very good indeed, on the ball, kept in touch.and really got on the case. I guess it is the luck of the draw.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    hi justice  my mp secretary is being a .........
    like every nhs organisation is against me-
    the gp who was abusive to me got away with it
    and the same gp made false accusations in 2015 -
    removing me from the surgery when i had done nothing to warrant it.
    last year the mp supported and assisted me in getting back there -now its exactly the same situation and she refuses to help me.

    its the surgery i was at who are doing this to me-when i tried to talk to the practice manager-she refused to listen -hung up on me and accused me of harrassment when i rang back,
    if i find out i have got something serious going on then i will sue them for neglect.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Matilda said:
    PIP tribunal in my case placed a lot of store by my DLA medical evidence which DWP had asked If I wanted included with my claim.  And tribunal themselves raised the issue of my degenerative disease and so awarded me PIP with no end date.
    thanks for that i shall enter it in my appeal-

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    DWP are supposed to ask whether you want the evidence from your DLA award to be taken into account at the conversion phone call stage. Your answer is supposed to be recorded and then posted to you as part of the PIP 1. Rarely happens and they’re increasingly being caught out by it. Tribunals are also being made aware that it’s a significant omission. 

    Just be aware there’s no such thing as a PIP award with no end date. ”Ongoing” means between 10 and 29 years but in practice everyone is being looked at again every 3 years or so.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    My decision letter from the DWP states 'no end date'.  And DWP have advised me that my award will be 'reviewed' after 10 years.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, that’s what they say. It just isn’t what happens in practice.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    A tribunal awarded me PIP with no end date.  DWP could not change the tribunal's decision.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Well, they can, relatively easily should they choose via a set aside application, slip rule application or appeal to UT. What you mean is that they chose not to. 

    Either way, bar a policy change there is a letter at the three year point.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Below is the text from a BenefitsTrainingCo adviser's reply to me in May this year.

    QUOTE

    Hello Matilda

    You are correct that a re-assessment is not the same as  a review. Currently when a claim is being reviewed a short form will be sent to you, just asking (as detailed above) if your condition has changed. Given that you are on the enhanced rates, and your condition is unlikely to improve then their will be no change in regard to your needs for PIP purposes.

    We would all hope that a decision such as the one you received from a Tribunal would result in you being put at the very bottom of the pile when it comes to claims being reviewed. If it didn't and you were being reviewed after a couple of years, I would be encouraging you to see your MP, so that that they are aware of not only the stress it causes individuals but the way public money is being spent on reviewing such cases. 

    Regards

    Maria

    UNQUOTE



  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    I will respectfully disagree. I note the word “hope” and can only say that the experience of myself and my colleagues is that length of award and nature of condition has thus far not had any detectable influence at all on the decision to send the 3 year letter out. 

    All you can do is report back when you pass that point and nothing has been received.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    As long as the DWP only send me a short review form every three years and take things no further, as my condition is unlikely to change, then I won't be unduly bothered.  On the other hand, if the DWP wanted to reassess me, then I'd take the advice of Maria at the BenefitsTrainingCo and contact my MP about the unnecessary stress placed on a person with a degenerative disease and the waste of public money reassessing them.  My MP is Labour and it is Labour policy not to reassess people with degenerative diseases for PIP.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    It's as well to be aware that the short review forms (AR1) which came in on the 25th of June 2016 are a problem in themselves. A couple of things are happening.

    One is that people are ringing up DWP with changes of circs., which they often don't need to notify e.g. starting work (irrelevant for DLA and PIP) and these trigger a review. No way out once it's started. So, quickly get advice before disclosing any change of circumstances as it may not be a relevant one and may not need to be notified.

    The other is that people have been thinking they'll be okay just ticking "no change" and not putting in any supporting evidence to that effect. This triggers an immediate invitation to a face to face assessment. We all know of the problems that then creates.

    Ticking "no change" is fine but if it isn't accompanied by up to date medical evidence of the condition being maintained and practical anecdotal evidence of recent examples of the impact then it immediately triggers the further invite. What this means is that a 2 sided form is never really that.

    I know of a number of clients with effectively 10 or 20 year awards on the back of conditions where there's no question of improvement or treatment. All reviewed at the 3 year stage so far. The initial advice from WRAs/WROs was to just tick "no change". That was revised pretty quickly when it was realised that that would trigger a face to face unless accompanied by up to date evidence.

    FWIW the Labour Party position on this is not clear at all. They have explicitly talked about the scrapping of assessments completely for PIP and ESA to be replaced by a "personalised" system. There's no detail on this but, it sounds ominously complex.

    They also talk about reassessments for severe lifelong conditions being scrapped but, firstly, they don't say which of the two benefits they're referring to and, secondly, if they do scrap assessments then why would there be re-assessments? Maybe have that conversation with your MP as at present it's incoherent.

  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    You really are the voice of doom.  The people that you and your colleagues see are only the ones who have problems with reviews - which might only be a minority of the total.

    In your comments elsewhere about repeated walking ability you made it sound as though assessors and tribunals routinely go into all the complexities of reliability.  They don't, because they haven't got time.  Both my assessor and my tribunal chose to keep questions about my walking fairly straightforward.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    The statistics don't bear that out at all unfortunately.

    My comments re: repeated/reliability stand. Tribunals ought to look at but won't if it's not raised and there are simpler/more obvious routes to the decision.

  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    edited November 2017
    @rainbow58 My assessor was a Paramedic as well. They have to re register every 3 years so the date you saw does not mean he wasn't registered before that for the previous 3 years or even longer. I would ring ICE for advice about your complaint. It may be that you only need to send them the letter you've had from IAS to actually register your on going complaint with them and therefore be on their waiting list for investigation. Then you can focus on your claim and provide ICE with more information when you've had your Appeal and won it hopefully. That will make your complaint so much stronger. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq

    I find your posts depressing.  To read them anyone would think that few ever manage to qualify for and keep PIP, at least not without a massive amount of complexity.  Which is not the case.

    There haven't been any posts on here from people awarded PIP with no end date who have been reassessed.

    I am not going to read any more of your posts as all of them describe the worst-case scenario.  Enough to put anyone off even applying for PIP.

    I shall be happy with advice from BenefitsTrainingCo and members of the community who, like myself, have gone through the PIP process successfully.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    I am sorry you read factual posts in that way. I tend to not post personal opinion and I am very clear when I have and why e.g. my view on recorded delivery. I certainly haven't described any worst case scenarios. I confine myself to describing what happens in practice having worked in the field for 31 years in both the voluntary and paid sectors. I rarely post from my experience alone. I work in a relatively large team and would tend to test my impressions on them before posting if I had any doubts.

    I note that I have posted that in fact expenditure on PIP is running at 118 to 135% of DLA expenditure when they were looking to cut it by 20%. That would hopefully persuade people that for all the doom and gloom stories significant numbers of people are qualifying.

    I have also posted about the fact that 52% of PIP cases succeed with no additional evidence at all and that many groups potentially benefit far more from PIP than they would from DLA e.g. people with sensory impairments. This would hopefully encourage people to obsess less on medical evidence and not give up just because, for example, they don't have a supportive GP.

    A quick search of the forums suggested that there have in fact been posts from people who received such awards and were then reassessed. However, bear in mind that the process and form changed in June 2016.

    It is of course your prerogative to ignore my posts.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    I think you may have confused me with someone else. I post factual stuff from my professional experience unless I say otherwise. I am the person who posted that PIP expenditure is currently running at 118 to 135% of DLA when government expected to save 20%. This was to encourage people to realise that whilst some groups are being hit badly it is also the case that in many ways PIP is easier to qualify for.

    I am also the person who posted that 52% of PIP claims succeed with no additional medical evidence. This should encourage those who believe medical evidence is critical to understand that a claim can still succeed even if you don't have a referral to a specialist or don't have a GP.

    You have asked on other threads about wanting to know how things work in practice and my posts on this thread are a good example of that advice being offered.

    A quick search revealed several posters who in fact had ongoing awards who have been subject to review. I am glad your PIP claim was successful. It is of course your prerogative to ignore my posts.

  • NystagmiteNystagmite Member Posts: 608 Pioneering
    I remember being asked if I wanted my DLA evidence included. I said yes. It wasn't and it led to an assumption that I've just chosen not to drive. I don't have enough vision, my medication makes me tired (she claimed I looked ok so that can't possibly be true!) and it's much harder due to my learning disability.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    Yes, it does appear as they've been naughty on a number of fronts:

    1) Not sending people the PIP 1 after the initial conversion conversation.

    2) Not telling decision makers that DLA evidence needs to be considered if that's what the claimant has said.

    However, now this has been realised it's likely a number of us will be challenging the lack of a PIP1 at every opportunity.

  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    i had to tell them i had not received mine after 2 weeks,.was not told that DLA needs to be considered-definitely mention that for appeal tribunal-complaint to ICE.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    @rainbow58 I've just sent off another email to ICE to ask for the non use of my DLA evidence to be included in my complaint. If it had been used it would have proved the results from a physical exam done by my assessor had false results and that my upper body problems had been the same  for the last 6 years. I think you do have to request that they use your DLA file as evidence while they're still considering your claim. It doesn't happen automatically. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    In conversion cases they should ask you the question on the phone; note the answer and you should then be sent a PIP 1 in which your phone answers should have been noted.

    In all other cases you will have to have explicitly said so before a decision is made. That said, there is a public law principle that an organisation should use what it already knows. DWP hide behind the "different benefit" argument but that doesn't really wash and were it to be tested by judicial review I suspect they'd cave.

  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    have just received a letter from the HMCT(tribunal) -not opened it yet-scared too 

    ,from what others have said they receive a bundle of papers-claim forms/reports etc-ahead of tribunal .
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    If it's appeal papers then it's nothing to be scared of. Your original claim pack; the HCP report; the original and MR decisions; any other evidence you put in and, usually (but not always) at the front, a typewritten submission from DWP. Nothing you haven't seen before except the DWP sub.

    This often concerns people because it can be inaccurate and negative. The better way to read it is that, if it wasn't, you wouldn't actually be at the appeal stage. It's just them laying out their arguments and it's really just the starting point for the discussions the appeal hearing will have rather than the end point.


  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    it is just a letter-no papers
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    If it's from HMCTS then it's either an acknowledgement of receipt of the appeal; evidence being circulated; directions from a judge or details of the hearing. Usually :)
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    does anyone know what a dip check is?it appears in the letter sent to my MP from IAS  ,i cant find anything about it on the internet
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Would probably need to know more about the context in which it's referenced in order to be able to answer that.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    the letter is a response to  my complaint about IAS .it says "This is not recorded within the observations an dhte dip check shows that te assessor has gathered appropriate information on each section of the assessment"
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    Ah, don't know the detail but it's basically a tool they use to re-check that the assessor has met the required standards for recording information. It's neither here nor there as we all know that the standards of what is recorded repeatedly fall well below what most reasonable people would describe as accurate.

    Have had one where they didn't use that language but described the roles they had referred the case to in order to re-check and that person decided the assessor did come up short thus a different (higher) points recommendation was made.

    So, it just means they looked at it again and, by their standards, they're not unhappy with it.

  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    thanks fro that,
    one thign he"claimed to observe " was me sorting through papers that  i had bent down to lay on the floor" -and htey said thsat is acceptable as a justification that i was able ot "wash all body parts=eevn though told cant wash my back feet or hair
    abnd even mor eso -when they have a table in front of themm wqith chaior pulled righ tgup to table
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    youre right MP is a waste of space.time.
    said will take complaint to next stage but her secretary said that "it is my word against the assessor" and that neither her nor MP has any knowledge re this and if need help go to CAB,
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    i receives my papers today from DWP,along with a letter from  them which stated i was awarded low care DLA until  10th oct.but not that it was awartded in 1999/
    it lists most of my conditions-
    Raynauds  Fibromyalgia scoliosis arthritis
    costochondritis hiatus hernia diverticulitis dysphagia pelvic pain hearing impairment
    did not mention gastritis or duodenitis
    it says i didnt specify any activities in m y appeal-that was CAB  who conpleted the form(if they did not do this properly -do i want them supporting me?)

    states the activities covered by the decisiuin makers decision as
    i identifieds diificulties with :
    taking nutrition reading and understanding   signs etc engaging with other people planning journeys

    activities covbered by MR
    and identified diificultioes with :

    preparing food
    managing conditiions
    washing bathiung
    managing tpilet needs
    dressing
    communicatimg
    budgettingh
    moving abourt

    why have they only listed some for each?

    then it goes on to say things based on the assessors report which was lies  -
    says for one thing -no evidenc e to suggest dizziness or poor balance- these arent every day experiences but do hasppem frequently
    prves they are based on the one hour assessment
    said ghave no swelling or deformity to hands-that is why i was unable to do my job prior to 1998 nwhen i lost my job on medical gounds

    it says -whixh the assessor lied -was able to sort papers and  place them on the floor whilst seated.
    it clasims that the assessor considered my ability on the majority of days rather than ther  exacerbations of her cndition.
    not sure what this means?
    then it goes on to say-tghey consider the HP report to be objective and accurately refelcts my ability to complete the daily living and mobiolty activities.

    that she agrees with all the descriptors
    that she opposes this appeal and confirm the Secretary of states decision

    what has the S O S got to do with anything?

    what can i do next?
    comment on this -tell the HMCTS it is not true the assessor lied?

    it is not based on most days but the one hour assessment/

    i listed all the aids i used in  my claim form

    aids to open cans bottles jars
    aid to clean myself -bottom wiper
    long handled dust pan brush
    long handled poop scooper
    aids to take nutrition
    pill poppers and tablet box
    aids to help dress
    aids to manage toilet needs 

    ands they said the only thing mentioned was stair rails










  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    Some immediate thoughts?

    1) Are these your appeal papers? I have lost track. The papers are written on behalf of the SoS for social security. It's a formality and largely irrelevant to how things proceed.

    2) Duodenitis and gastritis. Do you have distinct symptoms for each which are different to the symptoms you have from other conditions? Can those additional symptoms be directly linked to points scoring activities? If not, then whilst it's always worth ensuring they are recorded, it's not critical.

    What you now need is a representative.

  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    they are ahead of the tribunal.i have all these abdominal conditions and have persistent symptoms 24/7 but dont now which conditions-some or all -i can attribute them to.i have never been given a reason for my huge abdomen.i believe is due to a cyst as it is solid and causing pressure aghainst my stpomsch each time i eat whoch is rare as i never feel,hungry/.it is also the reasson i have gained 12.5 stone and loding weight eldsewhere

    i have contcted AGE UK for advice as thery said they can support me at triubunal and will need to go to CAB .
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger

    If you can't separate out the symptoms then you need a medical appointment where you ask that specific question? What causes what? Tribunals will always ask why you haven't pursued your health to the nth degree.

    Do you mean Age UK will be supporting you because CA can't or the other way round?

    It's vitally important that you have a representative at this stage to help you prepare and one who is going to attend on the day and not just put in a written submission in advance and leave you to it. 

  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    hi Mike
    i have asked the gp/gastro this many times-for the last five years but get fobbed off  because scans are normal.the gp i have now is ****-i have had croaky voice since august -he said he was going to refer me but didnt.i was waiting for an appt but did not receive a letter.he then said he never said he was going to refer me.four months on he agreed to do a scan of my neck but not treated it as urgent,
    i have kept on at dr's but get the same each time-dont accept i have no appetite-too painful to eat-have pressure against my stomach -ignore it,

    i have asked AGEUK because the CAB said they no longer support people due to funding being removed.

    my abdominal conditions affect my abilitty to eat but that wont score points.what will is my hands and arthritis raynauds -which have been accepted right up till now and the reason i was awrded indefinite DLA.they get away with it by saying PIPis different to DLA/ESA -criteria.cos he said i have no visible deformity -i can perform activities.he wrote the complete opposite of what i told him on several occasions
    my MP is taking the complaint to ICE


  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Afraid PIP is an entirely new benefit and the conditions most definitely are not anything like the same at all. You can ask at the phone call stage for your DLA evidence to be taken into account but it’s relevance will vary. 

    Length of award can be very relevant, especially if your conditions are degenerative or you know you have exhausted treatments etc. However, it’s not relevant unless you raise it. 
    i still disagree-because points are scored on  "using aids to assist with daily activities" or eg "cannot get in or out of the bath unaided"
    so using an aid to take meds scores 2 points,inability to get out of a bath unaided i believe was either 4 or 6 points,it is these that are the same.

    one other question  do the HMCS send the trbunal date by recorded delivery?

    i received a card from royal mail saying  they attempted to deliver a letter thaty required a signature,i cant think who else would send a letter recorded delivery
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    I can’t say I’m entirely clear what you’re disagreeing about. What’s the same as what? DLA was not a points scoring system so PIP is certainly different to that. Please clarify and I’ll be able to better respond. 

    HMCTS do not send anything by recorded delivery. It would be unaffordable; guarantees nothing and offers them no obvious benefit. So it won’t be them. :)
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  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    DLA was awarded because of my inability to do every day living activities -dressing,preparing meals etc due to my conditions,
    PIP care  is awarded for inability to perform daily living activities and points scored on whether aids are used to prepare meals/get dressed ,inability to get in or out of bath unaided etc, if need help to do these tasks
    in that respect it is the same
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Ella1976 said:
    They live in the hope they forget to
    post it...
    ??


  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    I can’t say I’m entirely clear what you’re disagreeing about. What’s the same as what? DLA was not a points scoring system so PIP is certainly different to that. Please clarify and I’ll be able to better respond. 

    HMCTS do not send anything by recorded delivery. It would be unaffordable; guarantees nothing and offers them no obvious benefit. So it won’t be them. :)
    To apply for DLA, individuals complete a claim form which requests detailed information about the impact that their impairment or health condition has on their ability to manage their care themselves and/or get around.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    rainbow58 said:
    I can’t say I’m entirely clear what you’re disagreeing about. What’s the same as what? DLA was not a points scoring system so PIP is certainly different to that. Please clarify and I’ll be able to better respond. 

    HMCTS do not send anything by recorded delivery. It would be unaffordable; guarantees nothing and offers them no obvious benefit. So it won’t be them. :)
    To apply for DLA, individuals complete a claim form which requests detailed information about the impact that their impairment or health condition has on their ability to manage their care themselves and/or get around.

    PIP 

    #Daily Living (10 activities):

    • preparing food • taking nutrition

    • managing therapy or monitoring a health condition

    • washing and bathing • managing toilet needs or incontinence

    • dressing and undressing • communicating verbally • reading and understanding signs, symbols and words

    • engaging with other people face to face

    • making budgeting decisions

    Mobility (2 activities):
    • planning and following journeys

    • moving around

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    Ah right. Yes, both benefits are about the consequences of impairment. Beyond that there are few similarities and that’s explicitly why I said the relevance will vary. So, for example...

    - PIP doesn’t distinguish between day and night so a DLA award based on day time care needs only will be irrelevant if there are now night time needs.
    - aids and appliances were a bad thing to mention for DLA and enabled DWP to argue that there were “simpler methods” than care. PIP takes the exact opposite approach and rewards the use of aids and appliances.
    - medication may have changed and treatments may have been discredited.
    - care needs counted for DLA only if you couldn’t do something at all or slowly or in pain. PIP also accepts things you can’t do repeatedly or safely. The DLA form won’t have any findings on those matters.

    And so on...


  • Sasha171216Sasha171216 Member Posts: 16 Listener
    DLA was awarded because of arthritis in my  hands and unable to do anything,If PIP "rewards the use of aids" how come the Dm stated "you can do all the activities unaided."when i use aids and receive care,I cannot and could not use an oven safely or reliably having had two house fires and several pan fires. which is why my meals are prepared for me by carers,DLA was awarded for being unable to prepare a meal ,washing and bathing,dressing-managung meds-still cant do these plus more besides,PIP is also if  eg you cannot walk ie 50m due to pain breathlessness fatigue aided or unaided,I need my walking stick the whole time,.IAS only base their "findings" on what they claim to see at the time-not how things vary from hour to hour,day to day,

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    It will depend on

    a) whether you spelt out in your claim pack what you’re spelling out above. It’s surprising how many people think they have done so when they haven’t.

    b) who provided your aids and appliances. There is a significant difference between those things you were provided with by the NHS or an OT; those things they recommended but don’t provide so you have to get them yourself and those things you simply elected to get yourself. Asserting that you use aids in itself is not enough unless the detail of who provided; when and why is added in.

    c) who provides your care and why. Again, a significant difference between carers you have been assessed as needing and care you choose to pay for.

    Do not get bogged down with errors in the HCP report. You could find 50 errors in it but that simply decreases the credibility of the report. It would then come down to the extent to which a DWP DM accepted the remainder of the evidence. If you haven’t made out a case for getting PIP with the remaining evidence then challenging the HCP report will have been for nothing.
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,141 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Sasha171216 PIP doesn't always give you points for the use of aids. If it's thought you could use an aid to help in an activity appropriately, then you might not be considered to need support from another, or might be thought to be able complete an activity on your own because of the use of an aid, if this could be 'reasonably expected' due to such an aid being widely available, & at low cost.

    The use of an oven isn't considered either when thinking about preparing 'a simple meal;' as cooking relates to heating food at waist height or above. Being unable to make a meal on a hob due to past safety issues is definitely relevant however.

    Unfortunately when comparing DLA to PIP you may not get a 'like for like' award, as PIP concentrates on how your disability impacts on your activities of daily living & mobility rather than your diagnosis. The mobility component looks at how far you can walk unaided or aided, so your use of a walking stick just aids/helps you to walk a certain distance; you don't get extra points because of this.

    Again, unfortunately, the onus is on you to say how your condition may vary.

    Great advice given above; details are needed as to the who & why, & forget errors in your assessment report if you can. Dwelling on such errors is hurtful, & won't help any if you are considering a Mandatory Reconsideration (MR). If you do decide to go for a MR people here will advise & support you as best they can.
  • Sasha171216Sasha171216 Member Posts: 16 Listener
    It will depend on

    a) whether you spelt out in your claim pack what you’re spelling out above. It’s surprising how many people think they have done so when they haven’t.

    b) who provided your aids and appliances. There is a significant difference between those things you were provided with by the NHS or an OT; those things they recommended but don’t provide so you have to get them yourself and those things you simply elected to get yourself. Asserting that you use aids in itself is not enough unless the detail of who provided; when and why is added in.

    c) who provides your care and why. Again, a significant difference between carers you have been assessed as needing and care you choose to pay for.

    Do not get bogged down with errors in the HCP report. You could find 50 errors in it but that simply decreases the credibility of the report. It would then come down to the extent to which a DWP DM accepted the remainder of the evidence. If you haven’t made out a case for getting PIP with the remaining evidence then challenging the HCP report will have been for nothing.
    i have maintained the same from day 1 -what i state is exactly as I stated in m y claim form.It does not matter where aids are obtained from -but that need them-it does not say that in their info booklet  on how to fill the form out,FYI they WERE told that aids were provided .Care has been provided following assessment -I have never chosen to pay for care.

    The case law of 2018 states that DLA and PIP be linked and DLA award be considered when applying for PIP,other benefits  was awarded for dressing washing and bathing,prepasring meal,managing meds,getting about-cant move more than 50 m without stopping to rest-pain breathlessness fatigue.Told exactly the same yesterday when at hospital -cant walk more than 50m and why.Pain was so intense thought i was having a heart attack.
  • Sasha171216Sasha171216 Member Posts: 16 Listener
    chiarieds said:
    Hi @Sasha171216 PIP doesn't always give you points for the use of aids. If it's thought you could use an aid to help in an activity appropriately, then you might not be considered to need support from another, or might be thought to be able complete an activity on your own because of the use of an aid, if this could be 'reasonably expected' due to such an aid being widely available, & at low cost.

    The use of an oven isn't considered either when thinking about preparing 'a simple meal;' as cooking relates to heating food at waist height or above. Being unable to make a meal on a hob due to past safety issues is definitely relevant however.

    Unfortunately when comparing DLA to PIP you may not get a 'like for like' award, as PIP concentrates on how your disability impacts on your activities of daily living & mobility rather than your diagnosis. The mobility component looks at how far you can walk unaided or aided, so your use of a walking stick just aids/helps you to walk a certain distance; you don't get extra points because of this.

    Again, unfortunately, the onus is on you to say how your condition may vary.

    Great advice given above; details are needed as to the who & why, & forget errors in your assessment report if you can. Dwelling on such errors is hurtful, & won't help any if you are considering a Mandatory Reconsideration (MR). If you do decide to go for a MR people here will advise & support you as best they can.
    the pip test awards points for using aids.points and are scored for using /having them.Its only the HP/IAS  who come up with excuses to avoid awarding points.
    the use of an oven is considered -its not about "thinking to prepare  a meal -its actually doing it which my carer does for me .Being unable to prepare a simple meal for one from fresh ingredients using an oven or microwave.I have arthritis in hands and knees,all joints affected by fibromyalgia,cant peel veg,cut up food,hold anything for long.i cant use the top oven as cannot reach to do so and if i did is risk of dropping oventrays 

    IAS call the form "how your disability affects you" which is not entirely correct,It is my conditions that cause disabilities that affect my ability to carry out daily living ativities.and then state that it is "how your conditions affect you"
    exactly -they were told that i cant walk more than 50 m  cos of pain and breathlessness fatigue,on my worst days i cannot walk to my bathroom.The DWP do not ask if you want to include your DLA award in PIP,People do not suddenly became able bodied just because of a change in benefit title,ESA was awarded on change from IB to ESA -based on IB award and for getting about plus the other activities-not being able to prepare a meal safely reliably repeatedly.

    MR has already been submitted -and yes does include the lies told by the HP,.and inaccuracies -inconsistency of the HP report.she lied about what she "observed".what she "asked me to do" and how long the home visit lasted amongst other multiple things,What points i should be awarded -based on PIP test -28 for care and 22 for mobility,people bang on about background info-schooling and where i choose to live have no relevance.they did not consider that i lost my job on ill health grounds-could not do my job because of arthritis ,raynauds and fibromyalgia.affecting my hands and mind,.people dismiss that IAS  lie and fabricate things.The MS.CNS report and mental health report are standard text they copy in .

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2019
    I'm sorry but you're wrong that using an oven is considered, it's not. What is considered is waist height as correctly advised by @chiarieds. See link below.

    Walking to the bathroom is also not considered for managing toilet needs.

    DLA and PIP are different and having some understanding of the PIP descriptors and criteria certainly does help. Looking at the PIP descriptors or doing the PIP self test, it's very easy to score yourself more points than it maybe possible to score.

    Concentrating on the lies/contradictions that are told in the report will not help your claim, i'm sorry. It could actually harm your case by doing this because HMCTS won't appreciate you mentioning any of those. All they will be interested in is where and why you think you should score those points. Followed by real life examples.

    ESA and PIP are completely different benefits too with completely different criteria.

    This link will help you have more understanding of the PIP descriptors, what they mean and the criteria.

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,605 Disability Gamechanger
    With respect to your last response to my post I fear you have a number of misunderstandings:

    1 - yes it does absolutely matter where an aid comes from. Someone who uses the stick their Dad used or the rail in a house which already had a rail in (but not for them) is always going to find it harder to demonstrate the need for that aid if it hasn’t explicitly been medically approved. Plenty of caselaw to that effect but it’s largely glossed over as it’s fundamentally common sense. Lost track of the number of claimants I’ve seen over the years who have never realised that the reason they still have a mobility issue is precisely because they’re using a stick which was never intended for that. 

    2 - what the caselaw says as regards the link between DLA and PIP is complex and nuanced and depends on the specific circumstances, 

    a - if you’re converting from DLA to PIP you should be asked every time if you wish the evidence used for your DLA to be used for your PIP. The question often doesn’t get asked but equally, if we’re talking medical evidence, it’s often years old and out of date. Some may still be relevant but all of it? Unlikely in my experience. 

    b - if you’re at the appeal stage and the question above wasn’t asked or the evidence isn’t in the appeal bundle then matters can be delayed until they are but this is by no means an absolute. In many cases a panel can make a perfectly sensible PIP decision without any reference back to DLA at all.

    c - there has been some caselaw which makes it very clear that the overlap between DLA and PIP is very limited indeed. Specific activities and specific wording. You cannot simply infer that long term title to DLA means long term title to PIP. Where there is crossover it must be carefully addressed but only there and not in general. 


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