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Why the DWP doesn't mind losing appeals

GeoarkGeoark Member, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,376 Disability Gamechanger
edited January 2018 in News and opportunities
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3702-13-december-2017-update?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Benefits and Work&utm_content=V1+December+13+2017+newsletter

Cost of Mandatory Reconsideration and Appeal to the DWP - £140

'Which explains why Sir Ernest Ryder, senior president of tribunals, recently told a gathering of barristers that most of the decisions that the DWP tries to defend at tribunals are so bad that they have no case at all and cannot hope to win.'

Confused?

'Because first the DWP refuse benefits to hundreds of thousands of people who are actually entitled to them.

Then they make all those who challenge the decision go though a dispiriting and generally hopeless reconsideration process, which costs the DWP very little

The DWP know from experience that the vast majority of claimants will be physically or emotionally unable to pursue their case all the way to a tribunal and will give up as soon as they realise that their mandatory reconsideration has been unsuccessful.

Others will drop out during the appeal process itself.

A small number will make it all the way to the appeal hearing and, in the majority of cases, leave the DWP unable to defend a clearly unjust decision.'

A lot more information in the newsletter.


As an individual I stood alone.
As a member of a group I did things.
As part of a community I helped to create change!

Replies

  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you for your post, @Geoark.

    People should not be scared of going all the way to PIP appeal, as long as they believe that their current award is safe.  If you have a good case, and are well prepared, tribunal hearings are not a major problem.  You do need to be prepared for a lot of questions and the panel will ask the same questions over and over again in different ways to see if you waiver.  Be confident in your answers:  for example, if you can't walk more than 20m before you need to stop and rest, then you can't.  If asked for how long, not how far, can you walk always say it takes you X time to walk Y distance.

    But the panel are not there to cause you grief for the sake of it - it is their job to ask lots of questions to try and get at the truth.  Panels are impartial and 65% of appeals succeed.

    We need to get the message across to people that, as long as they believe their current award is safe, then they should go all the way to appeal because the success rate is so high.
  • Kaz1957Kaz1957 Member Posts: 22 Courageous
    My husband had pip but was taken away so we are going for a appeal as he has depression anxiety and osteoporosis arthritis in both knees he does not go out and only got him to the doctor in a taxi and I am his carer as he needs help getting in and out of shower but the woman at the assessment decide he could walk over 50 meters because I made sure he looked OK she said he does not have depression so we are going to appeal so thank you 
  • debkenzodebkenzo Member Posts: 110 Pioneering
    Thank you very much for your comments Geoark.
    You have given me some hope for justification.  I am awaiting a date for tribunal hearing for ESA.  My medical Report ESA85 was full of inconsistencies, lies and she even contradicted herself!  I'm in a complete mess, everyday and night i am overcome with worrying.  How do these 'people' (I use the term lightly) live with themselves, what do they see when they look into a mirror?  I provided so very much medical evidence and consultant reports for my Mandatory Reconsideration but it seems they just rubber stamp the original decision :(
  • GeoarkGeoark Member, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,376 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Matilda I totally agree with you.

    It is one reason we need to keep encouraging and supporting people to not just accept what they are being told and to go to appeal. Sadly what was missing is the newish tactic to hold up payment by saying that they are currently looking to appeal the decision, often with nothing happening except for additional stress and frustration for people who need the help.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • GeoarkGeoark Member, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,376 Disability Gamechanger
    @Kaz1957 I just looked at your post and I am delighted to hear that you have decided to push ahead with the appeal, and yes it is worth it. Two things to keep in mind about the PIP assessment, first it is not a medical, and second it is extremely unlikely to have been done by a doctor. The purpose is to supposedly assess how the individuals condition affects their day to day life. 

    While additional medical information to back what you say is always useful do not forget to address where you disagree with the report against PIP criteria, which you can find at https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

    Also do not forget we are here to help and support you while you go through this process.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • GeoarkGeoark Member, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,376 Disability Gamechanger
    @debkenzo I am glad to hear that the post has been helpful to you.

    As I have pointed out before they are doing their jobs, I have posted elsewhere with sources that the DWP has target levels to reject claims at the mandatory reconsideration stage. It is also worth reading the link as there are other nuggets of information in it.

    The system is currently designed to encourage as many claimants as possible to drop their claims. While medical information is important as I explained to Kaz1957 the purpose of the assessment is to see how what effects you affects you. So don't forget to focus your appeal on why you believe the assessor was wrong in deciding how you fit into the pip criteria is wrong and why you believe you meet a higher level of need against the PIP criteria. More information can be found at https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

    Don't forget we are here to help and support you.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • Kaz1957Kaz1957 Member Posts: 22 Courageous
    Yes thank you for the help we have new x rays and the doctor has said he will do a letter for us so hope it all helps 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @sleepy1

    Yes, Rosie, don't let the jokers get you down.  Despite the hassle, it's worth appealing.
  • GeoarkGeoark Member, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,376 Disability Gamechanger
    @sleepy1 congratulations on succeeding before. 

    At least this time round you know what to expect and prepare for. I'm not sure that this will reduce the stress for you, I hope so.

    You mention people wondering if it is worth going through and I would say yes. These benefits are often gateways to other benefits, and enhanced payments, depending on the award. 

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • sleepy1sleepy1 Member Posts: 299 Pioneering
    Morning Geoark

    Its like a never ending story  
    I don't want or need another battle with DWP but no matter how ill I feel I will try my best to have some justice for other disabled people who have been treated like S..T

    My gripe is the government are paying more money to companies to stop benefits to disabled people than they would have had to pay out to disabled people. Where is the logic in that? .....Why not just cut out the middle man and help the people that really need help instead of wasting tax payers money trying to swerve the issue.

    Yes there may be a few that are faking it but why should the rest of us all have to suffer this on going rigmarole?




  • Panda70Panda70 Member Posts: 23 Courageous
    I fought the Dwp and won, I got enhances daily and 7 points mobility, however since I first applied my spine is in such a state that I'm struggling massively to get around, I had a nerve root block which has failed so now facing surgery but due to my complex medical problems the surgeon says it will be quite difficult and high risk surgery but I can't live much longer like this, I can't bend, sit, stand or lay down without mega pain and I get stuck, I know the Dwp tell you to inform them if you get worse or better but as soon many of us, I'm scared they will take pip off me altogether, I'm on the verge of a breakdown because of the pain, not being able to get around now, I can't have my new baby grandson to stay as I can't manage, I'm 48, worked up until two years ago and feel like just giving up, I'm normally a stubborn, strong, person but since becoming ill I can't cope, I'm gutted that I'm too scared to apply for what I'm eligible for as I've dealt with it once before and they put me through months of hell, what experiences have others had and what help did you get or not get? 
  • Pippa_AlumniPippa_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,851 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks for sharing this with us @Panda70, I'm so sorry to hear that things are so tough at the moment and that you feel you can't risk contacting the DWP. 

    Please remember that you are a member of our community and we appreciate you. If you are having thoughts of suicide, it is important that you discuss them with someone who is qualified to help. Please call the Samaritans on 116 123 (free) or email them at [email protected] You might also benefit from reading MIND’s information on how you can help yourself.


  • Kaz1957Kaz1957 Member Posts: 22 Courageous
    Hi my husband is waiting to hear when his appeal will be we are going all the way xxxx
  • cher77cher77 Member Posts: 95 Courageous
    Hi just been reading some of the post i to am waiting for a mandatory decision long story short was getting enhanced for mobility and daily living as my disabilities got worse which are disc degeneration suffer with slipped prolapse bulging diss in constant pain 24-7 pain in hips legs ankles suffer with pins and needles sciatica, stenosis numbness got to move into an adapted house with stair lift and wet room stairs are an effort so had an assessment last November took new evidence ect received my award letter and the report that the lady said it was like reading about someone else she lied i was in agony crying sat on my
     mobility scooter she said I did a full frontal bend said I use an aid to dress and undress which is true my husband and or kids i have bed baths as can't get in and out my legs give in had plenty of falls at the moment I've got 3 slipped disc so in agony she basically lied all the way through won't go on with everything she said got my award letter and only got standard daily living but enhanced mobility which it's not about the money it's the fact she lied and wouldn't let my husband answer anything i was stuck on she told him shut up loads of other things anyway I'm waiting for a mandatory decision which i know it won't go my way I'm so depressed really low at the moment high on medication constant pain  and ashamed and embarrassed by the system I'm not sure I have the energy to persue it to a tribunal thanks for reading x
  • debkenzodebkenzo Member Posts: 110 Pioneering
    Hello Cher.
    I am so sad to hear your experience of what this government is putting you and thousands of other genuine people through!!  It also angers me, but we must use these emotions to fight back.  Never ever give in!  Fight to gain justice!  I can understand you feeling depressed because I am going through HELL with this system right now but I refuse to allow this system to beat me!  It is the DWP who ought to be ashamed and embarrassed and not you!  Majority of cases at Tribunals do win.  I wish you feel better.
    Debbie x



  • Panda70Panda70 Member Posts: 23 Courageous
    Hi @cher77, your situation is pretty similar to mine, I didn't have the spine problems when I first applied but two yrs on and I've stenosis, two protruding discs, facet joint arthritis in my spine along with crohns, fibromyalgia, cervical spondylitis in my neck and ehlers danlos syndrome, I'm currently waiting for a decision on surgery on my spine but because of my other problems it makes surgery more risky, I've only been diagnose with back problems since July 2017, and I was going to inform them because I am worse but so many have said not to because they could take it off me altogether, I fought them first time round as like yourself the assessors report was full of lies, to the point she said I had got to assesment centre on my own, my partner takes me to all appointments, said I got on the examination bed on my own without a struggle, my fella had to help me, she said I could use a telephone to speak to my family so said I'm quite capable to phone companies etc, I get confused with brain fog and ringing the council etc is a nightmare fore me, of course I speak to my family, because I can read a book she said I have no problems holding things on my hands, I have splints on both hands and can't grip properly, I have a holder that props my books open, I had gave up but now I'm so angry that we feel unable to apply for benefits we are eligible for because of the underhand, lying, cheating dwp and assessors, hope you find the fight to take it all the way xx 
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,288 Pioneering
    Apologies, I couldn't concentrate enough to read all this but I'd like to add a few comments.

    Many of us wonder how these assessors and departments treat us so badly.

    It is important to remember that, unlike us, they are not emotionally involved in our problems. It is just a job. They see so many people that it just becomes another blank form and an indistinguishable person across the table making claims about this, that and the other. Mostly they are untrained in health issues. Generally they don't care about anything but getting through as many as they can as quickly as possible.

    They may lie, they may simply not understand, they may be fed up with another idiot asking for something they can't have. There are all sorts of reasons. Maybe it's a woman who has just been treated badly by a man and wants revenge against all men or vice versa. People are people and certainly not infallible. They probably don't understand half of what the documentation tells them or maybe they got bored reading yet another stack of medical information with words they don't understand.

    Never expect these people to be sympathetic, that is reserved for friends and family or by someone too embarrassed to say they really didn't want to know your troubles in the first place.

    Before you go to or meet these people remember the following rules....

    Look exactly as you normally do.
    Do not try to do something difficult, just say you can't do it.
    Look them in the eye and constantly try to get them to look back into yours.
    Don't assume they understand your problems.
    Keep explanations simple and to a minimum.
    Never use long words if short ones can be used instead.
    Help them get through it quickly.
    Help them make it easier.
    Be polite and never get angry.
    If you get upset then cry, don't cover it up.
    Do not keep apologising or repeating yourself.
    Give one apology at the start if necessary to cover your difficulties explaining.

    and one last thing.......

    NEVER look happy to be there.

    In actual fact this is a good way to approach job interviews as well, but that's beside the point. These people do not know you, do not understand your problems, do not have sympathy for you and do not want to know you or understand what is wrong with you. They just want to do their job.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • cher77cher77 Member Posts: 95 Courageous
    Thanks for your replies no matter how we look or feel on the day of assessment I was in pain crying totally honest try to answer her questions and when i got confused and asked my husband who was in the room with us she told him to shut up so in my opinion we still should get treated with a bit of respect yes they have a job to do i don't expect them to be best of mates with me but they shouldn't lie make you feel uncomfortable or treat you like a piece of pop on bottom of the shoe it seems genuine honest people don't get all the help they are entitled to this is unfair and have decided that I'm going to fight them all the way I'm not expecting the mandatory decision to go in my favour it's been 2 weeks waiting the lady on the phone who was lovely said it can take up to 6 weeks just can't see how was getting enhanced on both and now standard daily and enhanced mobility when I've gone worse I took all new evidence new MRI reports ect she wasn't interested in them also a letter from my occupational therapist who said I need to move now with in a bungalow or house with stair lift and wet room thanks again all for replying x
  • Panda70Panda70 Member Posts: 23 Courageous
    That's what is outrageous, they can find you disabled enough to give you enhanced then when your clearly worse now and have proof, how they can decide your now not entitled is just crazy, sending you warm hugs n courage to fight the buggers xxx 
  • Tricia1912Tricia1912 Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    Hi Cher 77. I feel so sad for you and know how you feel,it’s so degrading. I had a similar experience some years. ago the doctor was horrible. Because l said good morning he put in the report l was very jolly. I appealed and won it was intimidating. It’s amazing the fight you find in yourself. Don’t let them win. Maybe what goes round comes round. 
  • davesheila6731davesheila6731 Member Posts: 5 Listener
    Did the same with my daughter saying she could spell the word world backwards dwp were squirming in their seat when i showed them her school report from a specialist school she has dyslexia as well as other problems. I won her case keep going guys 
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Member Posts: 210 Pioneering
    Hello Geoark thanks for your post you make alot of sence . I've had enough of hearing about rogue assessers it's blatantly obvious they are numerous to many good people on here so I suggest certain people on here take note and zip it up 
  • GeraldGerald Member Posts: 214 Pioneering
    Hello I got to the tribunal last week on the 17th may 2019 and the DWP sent someone to ask me the questions to show that there assessment was right and the judge ask the DWP person do you wish to ask  questions to me who looks at me and then puts her head down and goes know questions is there a point to this in the first place in them sending someone from the DWP and then go no questions you tell me 
  • zakbloodzakblood Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    it's pretty clear, some assessors know there worth and jobs, while others haven't got a clue, little to no empathy, little to no idea on a given illness, loaded questions and not writing the correct and full reply when given, comparing recorded assessments, where they can't alter the facts, can't not write the full given and correct answers and can't fail and score those attend with 0 scores, even after many like in my place with 5 previous passed assessments over a 20 year period.

    most are no longer shocked on how rude they are treated, how poorly they are treated, and feel lower in themselves than they should be after being treated like 2nd or even 3rd class citizens for no other point of making there targets and for us for just being ill in the first place, well i'm sorry i'm ill and a burden to the state, but i won't lie down and die just so someone can balance the books either, hit there targets or make my blood pressure rise to a point where my eye goes bloodshot from stress, i'll fight, no longer the silent few, it seems now it's the many and about time everyone knows what's going on and not how it should be, have passed all my details and experiences on to my local MP, who was shocked to see my last Tribunal statement and results from 2012, and now i'm back there again, for every one who fakes it and should lose out, there's 1000 of us who aren't, so why should we be tared with the same brush and treated so poorly? isn't this supposed to be a caring age and time we live in and not back into the early 1800 and 1900 etc :( 
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