PIP, DLA and AA
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Recording pip

lillybellelillybelle Member Posts: 458 Pioneering
edited April 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
just had newsletter from B&W and apparently the DWP are going to start recording all pip interviews
mine wasn’t recorded but It would be interesting to hear from members who had their F2f recorded and did it do any good?

Replies

  • Fight4JusticeFight4Justice Member Posts: 63 Courageous
    It helped in the sense that there was nothing missing from the "functional history" part of the assessor's report. However, it still didn't stop them from reducing my enhanced daily living to standard, and standard mobility to zero. That said, I still think it has proven useful, because I will be able to point out at the tribunal, that their conclusions in the "justification for descriptor awards", doesn't follow logically from the evidence in the "functional history" section.

    In summary, I think the recording helped make sure that the assessor recorded down everything I said. But it still didn't stop them screwing me over. So I'm still going to have to go to tribunal.
  • GizmoTiddlesGizmoTiddles Member Posts: 129 Pioneering
    I have just add  had my f2f assessment ,to be honest the young chap was good and strong his trade(a paramedic with good knowledge of  disabled health )and gave me a fair hearing. I thought.

    NOW  what the report will turn out like when it gets here I'll  let you know 

    But the purpose here is the recording of the assessments. Now I  play with lots of toy along those lines video as well.
    Long story short I had two cd recorders going  both made into DVD data disks (1.4gb) and they have a clearer understanding of where I was short in my anseers and where I made mysef understood..as to my needs ,he didn't rush me .though I did waffle at time due to the tirerdness (I did appolgise as i had been up since three .) Some were 
    Hyperthetical (spelling?) And the whole point of the recording is for my benefit .to run back over later and  less tired./fatigued .lucky for
    Me my companion / witness took notes throughout.and is a practicing mental health professional and an OT but there as a friend to see fair play as it were.
    The disc as I said are for my benefit only ,but should I need one for an MR  I can transcribe from it the Q an A of  the day
     "My Snapshot"
    Listening to it I thought I did well on the points score 
    the DWP DM may think differently.?
    My problems are physical /mobility and stress therefore anxiety. 
    What will be will be 
    merry-go-round fodder ?

    Guzmo
  • Sam_AlumniSam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,731 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @lillybelle do you have a link for this?
    Scope
    Senior online community officer
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    One reason I didn't do the MR was the worry of losing everything. 
    I had no other evidence because they had been sent it all the first time.


    I think the recording is to protect both sides not just to make sure the assessor is honest. 

    Fight for Justice
    If it's recorded I can't see how they can 'screw you over' because they haven't lied have they? Or are you saying you will be making a complaint because you have a copy of the recording and they lied.


    Has anyone actually given a thought to those with with MH issues?  The recording of the interview might actually cause them to be extremely stressed and unwell. 
    It's no good saying if you don't have anything to hide you are fine, these are people with severe health problems hence why they claim. It might stop people with a genuine need from even applying.
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  • lillybellelillybelle Member Posts: 458 Pioneering
    It’s on the benefits and works website. I don’t think it’s started yet but apparently it is starting.
  • Sam_AlumniSam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,731 Disability Gamechanger
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    Ive had assessments recorded by dwp and was advised that you cannot use the recordings afterwards.
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    Ive had assessments recorded by dwp and was advised that you cannot use the recordings afterwards.
    So what's it for?
    Training and monitoring.
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  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited April 2018
    Personally I am not happy if this sound and/or video goes ahead 'as part of the assessing process'. OK yes some may think that the assessment being recorded will definitely make things fairer and force the assessor to be honest. I have doubts. The whole basis of the assessment is for the assessor to give an opinion
    on what they think the situation is and what descriptors would apply. It is quite possible and it is the case that say if six people sat in on the same assessment at least 50% would give an opinion that says the opposite to what the other three would give. The assessment as I see it is not a fact finding exercise in it's entirety. Yes facts will be found but what actually matters is how those facts are interpreted.
    I honestly don't believe that these 'opinions' will change very much. In the main the IT software that they use is geared to both a tick box system backed up by pre-stated comments for the assessor to choose from that are then 'cut and pasted'.
    I do believe that there is also room for an assessor to add their own words, phrases etc but I have yet to see anything approaching individual comments being entered in any of my three PIP face to face assessment reports.

    I also don't agree that recording should be made part of the assessment process. The applicant should have the legal right to refuse all recordings being made.
    I dread to think of those that go into an assessment knowing that it will be recorded and then clam up either through fear of saying the wrong thing or sheer fright on being on camera.
    You only have to watch interviews carried out by the police, councils and the DWP to see this happen time and time again. Even with those interviews you do have the right to refuse to answer any questions or make any comment or give an explanation. That right does not exist for benefit claims be they ESA and now PIP.


     
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    You can refuse and you do not get any money. 
    You are made to have the assessment in the first place.
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    Initially recording will make little difference as regards claim outcomes unless transcriptions are provided from the off. Ditto MR. Could make a difference at appeals but again will DWP provide transcriptions or will the appellant have to remember to request it? Recording in itself is neither here nor there.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited April 2018
    whistles said:
    You can refuse and you do not get any money. 
    You are made to have the assessment in the first place.
    I agree, but being 'forced' into having the assessment recorded is not the way I would like to see it go. It should be by request only.
    As Mike Hughes says, transcriptions could be useful but once again, how many people claiming PIP will feel totally comfortable being recorded? For me it doesn't bother me, as on a weekly basis I stand and give my views and argue my point of view to an open Town Council . Also having spent many many years until health problems got in the way, playing on stage with a working band of musicians holds no fear in front of audiences of 600+. 
  • lillybellelillybelle Member Posts: 458 Pioneering
    What I am a little concerned about is what happens to these recordings afterwards?
    the government hasn’t got the best track record of personal data being kept confidential. Plus how many copies will there be.
    i personally don’t like the idea although I can see the plus side.
    i think you should have a choice
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    To be clear, I have not said “transcriptions could be useful”. I said that “recording in itself is neither here nor there”. That is, a recording is if no use at all until there is a transcription i.e. not “could be useful” but “absolutely critical”.

    I find it a tad bizarre that after this announcement is made anyone should suggest it should not be compulsory. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone on here or other related sites who, faced with the current process, would not want it recorded. 

    @lillybelle there will only be two copies. One will be yours and one will be owned by the assessment provider. The latter will most likely dispose of it as soon as your assessment has been passed to DWP or within a relatively short time thereafter. That’s governed by the Data Prorection Act and now GDPR. Logically they would dispose at 14 months i.e. 1 month after the latest date you could request an MR. My best guess would be that it’ll be 1 month after the assessment. The reason for saying this is that 

    a) you have a copy so could still pursue an MR without DWP needing to request one from the assessment provider, and,

    b) I’ve yet to see anything to suggest assessment providers default position will be to pass either the recording or (much more likely) a transcription straight to DWP. It’d be great if they did but it’s more likely they won’t given the cost.

    The more likely intent here is that they enable a recording and by having two they ensure legitimacy. The DM will just get the HCP report. If you disagree with the HCP report you can then put in the recording or a transcription in at your open expense at the MR stage. It would cost because only a fool would put in their original copy rather than a further duplicate. 

    It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out. 
  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    The trouble with these recordings is they only hear they don't see 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    It doesn't bother me either way to be honest.
    We are already being watched on a daily basis and video recorded on any public transport, cctv etc. So this doesn't concern me. 
    If it's recorded when I go for my review so be it. 
    If you call them they record the call.
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  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    It's just if we look dreadful that day we are assessed I mean poorly dreadful and the assessor says we looked fine and almost blooming , how could we prove that ? I had an honest assessor from start to finish but will She/ he be honest in the future I'm dreading it now and it's not till 2020
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    dee4848 said:
    It's just if we look dreadful that day we are assessed I mean poorly dreadful and the assessor says we looked fine and almost blooming , how could we prove that ? I had an honest assessor from start to finish but will She/ he be honest in the future I'm dreading it now and it's not till 2020
    It’s the sort of thing people get hung up on and lose focus. DWP PIP assessment provider guidance explicitly says they should avoid a snapshot. How you look is just that. A snapshot. It is also irrelevant because how you look also says nothing at all about your physical or mental health because inferences could be drawn either way. You dressed down to convince a HCP you were poorly. You dressed up to make yourself feel better. It simply does not matter. Very easy to dismiss in seconds at an appeal. In fact I’m not sure I’d even mention it. What is it that you can’t do reliably, repeatedly, safely or in a reasonable time? 
  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    edited April 2018
    @mikehughescq well I have to disagree a little , on a lot of post i have read they have said their assessor has wrote "didn't look withdrawn or looked well kept or didn't look thin or didnt appear to be shaking ect so they clearly do take your appearance into consideration a tape recorder carnt see that you was 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    I didn’t say that they don’t note it or comment on it. I said that it didn’t matter. It’s an irrelevant consideration according to the law; the cas law and their ken guidance. Tribunals won’t give it a second thought and, despite most HCPs spending some time on it, nor should anyone else. 
  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    edited April 2018
    But it does matter to people it must really hurt them and by the time it's got to tribunal one or two years down the line this person could of changed in their appearance so yes it does matter for those people The person might of piled on weight or hasn't got the trembleds ect on tribunal day .
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    They have to have guidelines as a starting point though.

    I think some people are missing the fact that pip is meant to be for severely disabled people be that physically mentally or emotionally.

    It stated I didn't appear anxious, my meds were a low dose and I receive no outside help.
    What that translates into is a condition that's not severe for pip.
    I knew it wouldn't be because it's not, but they asked what your conditions were, when they started and the meds. So I included it. It wasn't why I got DLA so unlikely to be anything to do with pip.
    Since then I am off those meds anyway!! 
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    dee4848 said:
    But it does matter to people it must really hurt them and by the time it's got to tribunal one or two years down the line this person could of changed in their appearance so yes it does matter for those people The person might of piled on weight or hasn't got the trembleds ect on tribunal day .
    I was well nourished. That's just an observation from the choice of words in the assessors list.

    I had said I cannot cook and a fair few people are saying this as well, so we are receiving food from somewhere else we would be stick thin.
    So who cooks for you, what can you manage, are you getting it delivered- communication is therefore fine. It leads onto other criteria.
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  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    @whistles That's my point though these recordings need to be a video recorder for an assessment ( hearing and seeing .The camera never lies 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    dee4848 said:
    But it does matter to people it must really hurt them and by the time it's got to tribunal one or two years down the line this person could of changed in their appearance so yes it does matter for those people The person might of piled on weight or hasn't got the trembleds ect on tribunal day .
    My point is that you make a choice. Do you want to get PIP or do you want to focus in on every tiny single inaccuracy in a HCP report because it “matters” to you? What matters more? The money and the things it passports you to, or, spending ages trying to systematically discredit every word the HCP says when an appeal tribunal will look at you and say “And...? Where’s the rest of your evidence?”

    I’ve made the point many times before, as have others, that discrediting a HCP report in itself gives less weight to that specific evidence but doesn’t actually entitie you to PIP unless you put together comprehensive supporting and anecdotal evidence. A tribunal will at best tell you to not worry about it because they understand that it’s irrelevant. The fact we’re even having this discussion is illustrative of the extent to which people can zoom in on exactly those things which are wholly irrelevant to their entitlement.

    So, the need for video recording is literally nil.


  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member

    A tribunal will at best tell you to not worry about it because they understand that it’s irrelevant. The fact we’re even having this discussion is illustrative of the extent to which people can zoom in on exactly those things which are wholly irrelevant to their entitlement.




    I'm now getting the point of this PIP business after 5 years and 3 assessments!!
    With everything that you say I seriously wonder why we even have these assessments at such cost to the taxpayer.
    If most if not all of the report is irrelevant surely it is about time to get the DM's fully trained and with access to a good advice service or maybe their own in house assessors/medical advisors.

    You even have me thinking about my own past actions - I honestly believed that after the assessor had written some 14 or so one liners in 2013 in the mental health examination section I had no chance of convincing anybody about my mental health difficulties. Now I am starting to see that they were at best just a snapshot and at worst totally irrelevant. Maybe I should have just ignored the assessors report and plodded on with the truth - and my 'stories'. I have years of evidence proving why I have these difficulties and in fact have a lifetime IIDB award at 40% in respect of these mental health difficulties dating back to 1995 with regular 4 yearly re-assessments all the way through from 1995 to 2011.

    I see the problem of not being able to obtain such good advice over the past 23 years as I have had over the past few weeks on this site especially from you.

    Thanks (and yes I do try to follow the goings on Rightsnet but in the main it goes over the top of my head) 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    I think they need to train their own advisors agreed. 

    Strangely enough when I had MH difficulties that's when I got refused DLA. My physical condition later got me awarded but pip takes it away again. 
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  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    @whistles I can't cook. Standing that much, especially with that slight bend forward to do things on a countertop or hob, triggers an acute back muscle spasm most of the time. I got a perching chair, but I still have to bend forward that little bit so it doesn't help. Even taking breaks to recline on the sofa only does so much. 

    About once a week I'm good enough to make porridge or pasta (sauce from jar, putting water into and out of pan with a cup) without it causing a spasm, but if I misjudge it.... Problems. 

    Admittedly I don't eat as much as I should due to depression, but one doesn't need to cook to eat. I eat chunks of cheese, olives from a jar, fruit, a few bites of a cucumber, a piece of bread with butter, cold stew/ravioli/meatballs from a can, etc. Far too much of my diet is biscuits, oat cakes, and spoonfuls of peanut butter, but I do eat w/o cooking.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    whistles said:
    I think they need to train their own advisors agreed. 

    Strangely enough when I had MH difficulties that's when I got refused DLA. My physical condition later got me awarded but pip takes it away again. 

    When I claimed IIDB back in '95 I had both an excellent assessment by one of the DWP's doctors and full support from the MH team. At the same time I claimed DLA and once again with the support that I was given  I was awarded High Care & Mobility indefinitely both for physical and mental health difficulties.
    But when PIP came on the scene in '13, I was told that I was fit and healthy and due 0 points. However some 3/4 months later following a MR it went to Enhanced Care & Mobility for 3 years. 
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