Next year, the DWP is likely to be given the power to search claimants homes and seize documents

Biblioklept

Does anyone else get the newsletter from benefits and work? I hadn't heard about these new powers until now and I'm shocked!! 

Currently they can only get information from banks of claimants when there's suspected fraud, under proposed new powers they will be able to access it all the time. 
When they don't have enough evidence to prosecute they'll be able to give fines and penalties. 

Quote from article: 
"The DWP is to get the power to arrest claimants, search premises and seize evidence as well as being able to fine claimants where they do not have enough evidence to bring a criminal case for fraud, the government has announced."

Ross_Alumni

Thanks for sharing @Biblioklept, I'd be interested to hear what other members think of this proposed change.

calcotti

it was announced in May
New benefit counter-fraud plan set to save taxpayer £2 billion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

racyguy

Biblioklept said:

Does anyone else get the newsletter from benefits and work? I hadn't heard about these new powers until now and I'm shocked!! 

Currently they can only get information from banks of claimants when there's suspected fraud, under proposed new powers they will be able to access it all the time. 
When they don't have enough evidence to prosecute they'll be able to give fines and penalties. 

Quote from article: 
"The DWP is to get the power to arrest claimants, search premises and seize evidence as well as being able to fine claimants where they do not have enough evidence to bring a criminal case for fraud, the government has announced."

The DWP are well behind the times. The only way currently that your home/office/place of work can be searched is if they involve the police. Then if any evidence is found to show benefit fraud it is for the CPS to agree what criminal charges can be laid and not the DWP. They will use the Fraud Act 2006 and not the legislation that the DWP work with.
The DWP are intending to match both the powers HMRC and the Insolvency Service have had for years.

Biblioklept

calcotti said:

it was announced in May
New benefit counter-fraud plan set to save taxpayer £2 billion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

thank you @calcotti! I hadn't seen it until now. The Gov site makes it sound all fine and nothing to worry about. But they've a way of wording stuff so it sounds in public interest when it actually isn't  
The benefits and work article on it sounds like a terrifying thing everyone should worry about even if they're doing nothing wrong. 

I wish there was an impartial place to read an analysis of it

Cartini

Biblioklept said:

calcotti said:

it was announced in May
New benefit counter-fraud plan set to save taxpayer £2 billion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

thank you @calcotti! I hadn't seen it until now. The Gov site makes it sound all fine and nothing to worry about. But they've a way of wording stuff so it sounds in public interest when it actually isn't  
The benefits and work article on it sounds like a terrifying thing everyone should worry about even if they're doing nothing wrong. 

I wish there was an impartial place to read an analysis of it

I mean this in a nice way, but do you not think you are "over thinking" this?  The easy way to look at this is: If you are not committing fraud, you have nothing to worry about. 

Personally I think it`s a good thing because these measures are being put in place to ensure the money needed by those who need it actually receive it. Those who are fraudulently claiming it will (or should) receive just punishment.

poppy123456

Cartini said:

Biblioklept said:

calcotti said:

it was announced in May
New benefit counter-fraud plan set to save taxpayer £2 billion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

thank you @calcotti! I hadn't seen it until now. The Gov site makes it sound all fine and nothing to worry about. But they've a way of wording stuff so it sounds in public interest when it actually isn't  
The benefits and work article on it sounds like a terrifying thing everyone should worry about even if they're doing nothing wrong. 

I wish there was an impartial place to read an analysis of it

I mean this in a nice way, but do you not think you are "over thinking" this?  The easy way to look at this is: If you are not committing fraud, you have nothing to worry about. 

Totally agree with you here.

calcotti

It should be noted however that most benefit payments that are incorrect are as a result of error rather than fraud. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2021-to-2022-estimates

I would prefer more resources to get benefits processed correctly and promptly - but that wouldn’t fit the mood music.

leeCal

I just have a horrible image of the Dwp raiding the home of someone with serious psychiatric problems, it would be a nightmare come true. Bad for anyone actually. 

Biblioklept

Cartini said:

Biblioklept said:

calcotti said:

it was announced in May
New benefit counter-fraud plan set to save taxpayer £2 billion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

thank you @calcotti! I hadn't seen it until now. The Gov site makes it sound all fine and nothing to worry about. But they've a way of wording stuff so it sounds in public interest when it actually isn't  
The benefits and work article on it sounds like a terrifying thing everyone should worry about even if they're doing nothing wrong. 

I wish there was an impartial place to read an analysis of it

I mean this in a nice way, but do you not think you are "over thinking" this?  The easy way to look at this is: If you are not committing fraud, you have nothing to worry about. 

Personally I think it`s a good thing because these measures are being put in place to ensure the money needed by those who need it actually receive it. Those who are fraudulently claiming it will (or should) receive just punishment.

I do overthink most things so you are probably correct. But I don't think it's as simple as "I'm not committing fraud so I have nothing to worry about". Given how often DWP gets things wrong and these new powers mean they can take action and fine without evidence, it's very worrying. Is it likely to affect me personally? Probably not and I can logically see that. But I still worry very much for the people it will affect. 
I can say with almost 100% certainty they won't just end up punishing those who are legitimately and intentionally committing fraud. 

Given all our other rights being striped away I also have huge concerns over giving more power to the DWP too.

Biblioklept

calcotti said:

It should be noted however that most benefit payments that are incorrect are as a result of error rather than fraud. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2021-to-2022-estimates

I would prefer more resources to get benefits processed correctly and promptly - but that wouldn’t fit the mood music.

This is my thinking too! 
Plus how often do the DWP mess things up? I know people who have been forced into joint claims with family members following bad advice from DWP! Those who've been told by compliance teams that their boyfriend buying them a takeaway once a week means they should be joint claiming and admitting to overpayments that aren't actually owed as a result or pressured into signing admitting things that aren't true. 

I'd much prefer they spent the money how you've said, getting benefits processed correctly and promptly

Biblioklept

leeCal said:

I just have a horrible image of the Dwp raiding the home of someone with serious psychiatric problems, it would be a nightmare come true. Bad for anyone actually. 

Yes, exactly this!! 

Cartini

woodbine said:

If only they spent as much time and energy pursuing those who don't pay their taxes it would produce far more for the revenue.

I can`t argue with that.

Teigr

@Biblioklept,our daughter and her boyfriend were persuaded to make a joint claim in 2016,when they were both out of work.They split up in September that year and my daughter didn't see a penny until the following January,when she finally received the princely sum of £11.76.

calcotti

woodbine said:

I agree that if people have committed no fraud they have nothing to fear, ..

..except when the authorities make mistakes.

bg844

The whole fraud & error system needs reforming so I do get what they’re doing. However, in my opinion more focus should be placed on clearing the huge backlogs for re-assessments and clearing any other COVID backlogs. Once they are in control of it all then do it. I personally don’t like the idea of my bank account potentially being reviewed but if they give you money they should know what it’s spent on.

Cartini

bg844 said:

 I personally don’t like the idea of my bank account potentially being reviewed but if they give you money they should know what it’s spent on.

HMRC already have the power to do that during an investigation; it`s now being extended.

Cartini

calcotti said:

woodbine said:

I agree that if people have committed no fraud they have nothing to fear, ..

..except when the authorities make mistakes.

Where is the line drawn then?  Should measures not be taken in case a person makes a mistake?

Biblioklept

No but maybe the measures shouldn't take away ability to challenge them, especially given how often they make mistakes.
I'd also be all for more openness, once they start recognising their own mistakes and acting with a level of openness. They've repeatedly refused to publish many reports such as the investigations and recommendations made following the death of claimants which was prompted by coroners reports.

racyguy

The problem as I see it is how would the DWP define fraud?
Someone who is negligent and fails to advise the DWP of a change of circumstances? Someone who through no fault of their own is confused and doesn't really understand the concept of what constitutes a change of circumstances?
Both of these types of 'offences' currently attract a penalty - would that mean that they would be liable to criminal charges in the future?
 3

Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

Currently mistakes or errors resulting in an overpayment of benefits is likely to see a £50 fine.

The sentencing guidelines under the Fraud Act starts at a fine/probation and up to 10 years in jail.

calcotti

racyguy said:

The problem as I see it is how would the DWP define fraud?
Someone who is negligent and fails to advise the DWP of a change of circumstances? Someone who through no fault of their own is confused and doesn't really understand the concept of what constitutes a change of circumstances?

In their official statistics they do draw a distinction between error and fraud. The bit you've quoted is clear that fraud is the intentional withholding of information in order to make a gain (not sure where you're quoted it from - always helpful to say where it's from when you quote something).