Do you support the strikers ? - Page 2 — Scope | Disability forum
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Do you support the strikers ?

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  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 16,103 Disability Gamechanger
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    Call me old-fashioned, but my philosophy when I decided to study physiotherapy was that I knew what wage I'd get when I qualified. I was a little surprised to hear 2 or 3 years later that the ladies who served meals in the hospital canteen earned more than I would upon qualifying! But, I knew the wage I'd get is my main point; if a person doesn't like the wage they'd receive, then why take on the job (appreciating that, in some cases, not everyone has that option)?
    When working in an out-patient department as a physio student, we were stood around waiting for our patients to arrive due to a strike by the hospital porters. The qualified physios would do nothing as they were in a union; I suggested we students went to collect our patients otherwise they'd get no treatment. What helped our patients more?
    Hoping @Cartini will add physios to their list. :)
  • Cartini
    Cartini Community member Posts: 1,108 Pioneering
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    no I think they are unrealistic with their demands
    chiarieds said:
    Call me old-fashioned, but my philosophy when I decided to study physiotherapy was that I knew what wage I'd get when I qualified. I was a little surprised to hear 2 or 3 years later that the ladies who served meals in the hospital canteen earned more than I would upon qualifying! But, I knew the wage I'd get is my main point; if a person doesn't like the wage they'd receive, then why take on the job (appreciating that, in some cases, not everyone has that option)?
    When working in an out-patient department as a physio student, we were stood around waiting for our patients to arrive due to a strike by the hospital porters. The qualified physios would do nothing as they were in a union; I suggested we students went to collect our patients otherwise they'd get no treatment. What helped our patients more?
    Hoping @Cartini will add physios to their list. :)
    My initial draft said "medical world", but that was too broadbrush so I said what I did. I definitely include physios in that list :) Cartini is a singular, not plural ;)
  • woodbine
    woodbine Community member Posts: 11,614 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    I wasn`t disputing how filthy rich Sunak is, I was making an objective comparison to a comment made by Woodbine that implied Labour MPs were lowly paid, working class people.

    I can’t see anything in Woodbine’s comment that implies that Labour MPs are lowly paid or working class (whatever that encompasses these days).
    Woodbine`s comparison of rich Tories and (implied) not rich Labour: "Labour are the party of and for the workers the Tories are the party of and by the rich"
    Being of and for the workers doesn’t mean low paid. 
    It was Labour who introduced the NMW much to the disgust of the Tory opposition 
    2024 The year of the general election...the time for change is coming 💡

  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 16,103 Disability Gamechanger
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    I frequently use 'they/their' when I don't want to say he/his or she/hers as everyone's privacy should be respected (tho some user names make it obvious about a person's gender)! - I do believe there's only one of you, honestly :)
  • Cartini
    Cartini Community member Posts: 1,108 Pioneering
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    no I think they are unrealistic with their demands
    woodbine said:
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    I wasn`t disputing how filthy rich Sunak is, I was making an objective comparison to a comment made by Woodbine that implied Labour MPs were lowly paid, working class people.

    I can’t see anything in Woodbine’s comment that implies that Labour MPs are lowly paid or working class (whatever that encompasses these days).
    Woodbine`s comparison of rich Tories and (implied) not rich Labour: "Labour are the party of and for the workers the Tories are the party of and by the rich"
    Being of and for the workers doesn’t mean low paid. 
    It was Labour who introduced the NMW much to the disgust of the Tory opposition 
    And it`s the Tory party that has increased it.  Not only that, the Tory party raised the NI level to match IT so that those on low wages (less than £12570) paid no tax at all.

  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    chiarieds said:..! But, I knew the wage I'd get is my main point; if a person doesn't like the wage they'd receive, then why take on the job (appreciating that, in some cases, not everyone has that option)?
    But the value of the wage has been eroded and the working conditions have also deteriorated to the point where many workers say that they are no longer able to carry out their work safely. They have two options - withdraw their labour in the hope of improving their pay and terms of employment or to leave their job and look for other work. The latter course is increasing the shortage of staff in our health service which has an impact on all of us (as well as economic impact because people waiting for medical treatment are often unable to work which men’s they claim benefits and are no longer earning and paying tax).
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • leeCal
    leeCal Community member Posts: 7,550 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2022
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    no I think they are unrealistic with their demands
    Years ago I worked for a carpenter. After a while he needed another carpenter so I invited my then father in law to apply. He got the job but within a few weeks he went on strike for more money. My boss was a member of the employers union and my father in law was in the TGWU. He didn’t get a rise and I got the sack as I was his son in law and not in a union. And that was the end of that. That’s my only experience with unions. 

    “This is my simple religion. No need for temples. No need for complicated philosophy. Your own mind, your own heart is the temple. Your philosophy is simple kindness.” 
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

  • woodbine
    woodbine Community member Posts: 11,614 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    Cartini said:
    woodbine said:
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    calcotti said:
    Cartini said:
    I wasn`t disputing how filthy rich Sunak is, I was making an objective comparison to a comment made by Woodbine that implied Labour MPs were lowly paid, working class people.

    I can’t see anything in Woodbine’s comment that implies that Labour MPs are lowly paid or working class (whatever that encompasses these days).
    Woodbine`s comparison of rich Tories and (implied) not rich Labour: "Labour are the party of and for the workers the Tories are the party of and by the rich"
    Being of and for the workers doesn’t mean low paid. 
    It was Labour who introduced the NMW much to the disgust of the Tory opposition 
    And it`s the Tory party that has increased it.  Not only that, the Tory party raised the NI level to match IT so that those on low wages (less than £12570) paid no tax at all.

    Most of the increases in tax relief were at the insistence of the then Liberal coalition partners since then they have increased by law not by design.
    NMW levels for under 20's are still pitiful
    https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
    2024 The year of the general election...the time for change is coming 💡

  • woodbine
    woodbine Community member Posts: 11,614 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    leeCal said:
    Years ago I worked for a carpenter. After a while he needed another carpenter so I invited my then father in law to apply. He got the job but within a few weeks he went on strike for more money. My boss was a member of the employers union and my father in law was in the TGWU. He didn’t get a rise and I got the sack as I was his son in law and not in a union. And that was the end of that. That’s my only experience with unions. 
    Only ever went on strike once when I worked in local govt as a member of what was "NALGO" but only for a day, later on when I worked in retail as a member of "USDAW" we had voted for strike action during a pay dispute but they caved in the day before the strike and we got a 15% rise. I remember my dad who was an electrician and a shop-steward for what was then British Aerospace being on strike for 13 weeks, he worked nights and many a night he came home as they were on strike.
    2024 The year of the general election...the time for change is coming 💡

  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 16,103 Disability Gamechanger
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    With the current COL crisis everyone's wage is worth less. Things sadly haven't changed that much over the decades; I remember (once qualified) working all day Friday, & on call that night, then the same for both Saturday & Sunday; by Monday morning I was like a zombie, & said I couldn't safely work. I was allowed to go & sleep for 2 hours, then resume working!
    This is just my personal experience, but I haven't seen that much change (& I can only speak for the NHS) over many years, both the good & the bad; dedicated health care professionals, & poor ones; brilliant consultants (I had one that for many months rang me up in the evening 3x a week to discuss what we'd both found out about my youngest daughter's problems), & at least 3 other consultants who put obstacles in the way in trying to elucidate our family's problems.
    I became a physio because I wanted to help people, that was the most important thing, not me.
    I do appreciate what you're saying, but I would suggest that some people have choices/decide to make certain ones.
    I'm not trying to be contentious, but would be interested in any statistics that show the proportion of people awaiting medical treatment are necessarily claiming benefits.
     
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2022
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    yes I support them all
    chiarieds said:
    With the current COL crisis everyone's wage is worth less.
    Obviously that is true but the anger caused by the impact of current CoL is that it comes on the end of a decade of wage freezes and below inflation increases coupled with the deterioration of working conditions. This is a result of systematic reduction of funding for public services since 2010. 

    The government is hiding behind advisory pay bodies when the reality is that the government sets the remit of the bodies and has previously ignored the recommendations when they wanted to make awards that were less than recommended.

    However much people want to do a job they need to be able to provide for themselves and their families and we desperately need to retain workers in the NHS, schools etc.

    I finished my working life in a job I loved but on a low salary but I was financially secure when I started it - I couldn't have afforded to do it at a younger age.
    chiarieds said:
    ..would be interested in any statistics that show the proportion of people awaiting medical treatment are necessarily claiming benefits.
     
    Does't address this exactly but found this which is interesting:
    https://ifs.org.uk/articles/its-not-only-nhs-trouble-whole-country-getting-sicker
    "..economic inactivity as a result of long-term ill health has risen above two and a half million for the first time on record.

    Note, though, that contrary to much speculation this does not seem to have been a significant contributory factor to the reduced size of our workforce. Most of these newly sick were out of work already. Falling labour force participation seems to be driven largely by voluntary early retirement.

    Then there is disability: 44 per cent of all working-age people not in work are disabled. Disabled people are two and a half times more likely to be out of work than the rest and are more likely to be low paid if they are working. One of the main reasons that people with low levels of education are much less likely to be in work than the highest educated is that they are far more likely to be suffering from some form of disability. The economic, social and personal costs are huge.

    Those costs are growing because rates of disability are rising and they appear to be rising by similar proportions, ...

    Claims for disability benefits have roughly doubled at all ages, although the reasons for claims differ by age. The large majority of those in their 20s with PIP claims have mental or behavioural problems. It is physical problems that drive claims for older people. Claims for both have increased in lock step....
    The consequences for both health and the health service arising from the pandemic are likely to be with us for the long run.

    Part of the answer lies with the funding, staffing and performance of the NHS. The wider public health crisis — I use the word advisedly — will require a much broader-based response, and not just from central government. Public health needs to move up all our agendas."
    chiarieds said:
    I'm not trying to be contentious, 
    I didn't think you were (nor am I!)

    I would add that although we may have experiences in our life along the 'things were ever thus' I would hope that as a rich country we could make living conditions better for people not expect people to put up with stuff we might have put up with in the past.

    I think that what is now expected to be the 'norm' has in some respects become bonkers when we look at the amount of 'stuff' people want compared to what we all had 40 years ago and having stuff doesn't make you happy and wanting things creates dissatisfaction (as well as having huge environmental impact). However (leaving aside the current fuel problem) the cost of housing and transport is clearly much higher relative to wages now than back then which means that discretionary spend is reduced. The prevalence of food banks is a terrible inditement of the way things currently are.

    In the private sector wages for most have grown much less than executive salaries and large company profits returns to shareholders. 

    While I think higher wages are essential they are not a solution. There are much wider issues to do with societal expectations, obsession with GDP etc. Nonetheless I am supportive of the strike actions underway (with teachers likely to follow shortly https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/dec/21/teachers-and-social-workers-suffer-most-from-lost-decade-for-pay-growth-in-uk).

    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • Cartini
    Cartini Community member Posts: 1,108 Pioneering
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    no I think they are unrealistic with their demands
    chiarieds said:
    I frequently use 'they/their' when I don't want to say he/his or she/hers as everyone's privacy should be respected (tho some user names make it obvious about a person's gender)! - I do believe there's only one of you, honestly :)
    Phew! The world is too small for two of me ;):#

  • Lottgelady
    Lottgelady Community member Posts: 19 Courageous
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    yes I support them all
    I think it's ridiculous that train, post, ambulance workers and nurses or on strike I think health professionals work to long of hours. 
    That's why they are striking to some extent .... everything is (deliberately) broken ...
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    chiarieds said:
    I frequently use 'they/their' when I don't want to say he/his or she/hers ..
    There's a long history of they/their as a singular pronoun because its gender neutral.  See for example Dale Spender's Man Made Language from 1980. 
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 16,103 Disability Gamechanger
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    Thank you for the first link, which was indeed of interest.
    If anyone else wishes to read the 2nd link, copy & paste it into your browser minus the bracket at the end.
    calcotti said:

    I think that what is now expected to be the 'norm' has in some respects become bonkers when we look at the amount of 'stuff' people want compared to what we all had 40 years ago and having stuff doesn't make you happy and wanting things creates dissatisfaction.....
    I couldn't agree more!
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
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    yes I support them all
    chiarieds said:
    If anyone else wishes to read the 2nd link, copy & paste it into your browser minus the bracket at the end.
    Sorry about the stray bracket!
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • Steve_in_The_City
    Steve_in_The_City Scope Member Posts: 562 Pioneering
    edited December 2022
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    yes I support them all
    When I was 15 I had no choice but to be factory fodder, because I was abused at school under the Thatcher admin and couldn't get the required qualifications to get a decent job. As a comedian said, Thatcher loved poor people which is why she made so many of us. My back ground although I am a Londoner is in the mining communities of the North, that Thatcher decimated. I went to work in a factory and got £6 a week. The managing director wined me and dined me and took me home to have a lot of fun with me, and just like Alf Garnett being grateful for the boots that he borrowed to walk 15 miles to vote for the Tory party, I was grateful to get a few extra quid for the services that I unwillingly provided. £6 a week just wasn't enough to live on.

    Yet I was an intelligent lad (regardless of the abysmal mundanity of the secondary modern school system) and managed to find my way in the World. One winter the company I worked for didn't switch on the heating  and the union, to which I subscribed, called us all out on strike and we sat in the canteen until the heating was switched on. The heating was switched on except for in the packing department where I worked. My immediate boss was a JW who would not engage in politics so the packing department remained freezing cold. I spoke to the union rep and he told me to go and sit in the canteen, where it was warm. He got the heating switched on. This is why I believe in unions. They take care of the concerns of working people.

    As for key workers not being allowed to strike, I would say to anyone supporting the argument that key workers shouldn't strike is you have got a valid point if key workers were paid properly in the first place. It is not just about wages but conditions. So Tories and anti trades union people should put up with what is happening now because it is the Tory party that has created these conditions. The country has never been in a worse place than now, not even under Thatcher and the miners strikes. If you think nurses and ambulance crew should not strike you are adding to the misery of the low paid and over worked.
  • rebel11
    rebel11 Community member Posts: 1,639 Pioneering
    edited December 2022
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    yes I support them all
    The Unions are can be hit and miss. Some managers (I use that word loosely as they couldn't manage watching paint dry) wanted to move co-workers out of my place of work into another location, then move other workers into my location. They had altera motives for doing that. I couldn't see a commercial or any logical reason for doing that. So I told them why I think they are doing it and why it's wrong. The employee contracts state they can move workers, huge well known company, Union a total 'shambles', so I fought that 'battle' with my co - workers on our own, we won. To be honest HR was embarrassed for almost 12 months and didn't know what to do. 

    So Unions are o.k. on the 'collective', not so great on the 'individual'.  
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Scope Member Posts: 741 Pioneering
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    yes I support them all
    woodbine said:
    tomm said:
    IMO these strikes are not really about pay. They are about breaking the economy further  if that is possible., The GOVT and Parliamentary opposition  must want  the economy to collapse And Unions of public services  should be Politically neutral and have zero affiliation with any political party. Many people  think they are owed a refund  from the NHS for 20/21 And even today because the F2F GP  service has still not returned to normal PRE 2020 And the response times for Ambulances  is a disgrace a total failure for a 1st world country people  reporting to have been told it could be the next day before  an ambulance  would arrive  others waiting HR's on cold pavements after a fall or RTC

    As for the Train Drivers, they are already on a High wage  40k + annually this is the work of  militant  labour run unions  not the drivers
    How can the unions have no affiliation to the Labour Party as it was the unions who formed the Labour Party back in 1900 ? Labour are the party of and for the workers the Tories are the party of and by the rich it's quite simple.
    The difference between the two parties is that Labour if in govt. would sit down and talk to the unions, whilst all this govt. wants to do is vilify the workers.
    I agree.  It must be frustrating for people to think that Train Drivers are getting 40+ wages, but these wages were negotiated by the very people some are slagging off and saying that they don't deserve any more?
      So what do you do as a Doctor, Nurse or anyone that works for the NHS where you have to pay for parking while working in the hospital that pays you?  Some wages of the NHS per day are eaten away by parking fees and having some thing to eat while at work, then having to have the "other bills" like rent, gas, electric and council tax just to put the key in the door and go to work?
      Every person has a skill, whether it is working for the NHS or cleaning toilets.  How many would take on cleaning jobs where Health and Safety is always paramount, working as a Nursery teacher, where you hand your kids over to them and you expect them to be fed, ( knowing whether your child has allergy's or is vegan, change their nappy's and teach them to wash hands after they go, keep them entertained while teaching them to talk write colour or just express them selves.  Do you think these should be paid more than a milk man?
      The union give parity in wages that you don't see in the government.  Wait, soon the MP's that have those posh titles and get paid big buck are going to, if they have not already been paid it, another cost of living wage rise?  How many people can tell me how much their wages went up in 20/21 and in 21/22 and then tell me how much in 2022/2023?  This includes any increase in Wages and includes their "gold daily card" spend that they get which they DON'T HAVE TO PAY BACK.
      Then tell me who negotiated those rises and what they used for a yard stick to say why they were entitled to a wage rise when every one else was on a wage freeze and working from home like everyone else?  
       The failure of the government to negotiate is a failure of the government to negotiate there is no other excuse.
      How did the government find the money to build all those Nightingale hospitals around the country, mobalising a work force of construction workers then "kit them out" with all the medical equipment that would isolate every bed and allow a team to move around the hospital safely, then send one MP with a big title to buy PPE in one instance £MILLIONS OF POUNDS THAT WAS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE, yet nothing done?  Who paid for that?  He still got paid?  Swept under the carpet?  You get what you pay for.  Being given a title does not give you the experience to know, but why are they afraid to ask for help?  Especially when in this instance they were given a "spec" sheet for the use of, and when the order came it did not follow that HSE Sheet?  because it was cheaper.  This was playing with people's lives, as it is now.
      My final comment is where did all the kit and all the Nightingale Hospitals go when they took them all down since we are on the verge of another Pandemic which the government does not want to tell us about yet is sweeping across the country now.   
       Have we recovered from the working from home people yet?  NO WE HAVEN'T since the government are allowing 20 weeks+ to answer simple enquiries on access to benefits.  Every time I ring I am now getting a different answer as to whether I am on benefits or not since the system is taking so long to UPDATE?
  • rebel11
    rebel11 Community member Posts: 1,639 Pioneering
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    yes I support them all
    It's been a government thing over the last 6 years plus, the saying that comes to mind, regarding Brexit, Covid etc. 'Failing to plan is planning to fail'. 

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