PIPS face to face need help

I took my autistic son for his changeover from Dla to pip last year. I’m also my sons appointee because he cannot answer questions himself and becomes distresses. During the assessment my son kept looking at me and I knew what was coming because I could see him visibly shaking and getting even more distressed. When I tried to answer the questions for him the assessor became curt and asked me to butt out and let my son answer the questions. I then said what was the point of me signing the papers to say I would be his appointee if you’re not going to let me represent him. She tried to unsuccessfully get more questions out of my son but I think she even could see how distressed my son was becoming and let me take over thankfully. He lost his low mobility - he only scored 4 and I felt that he should have got more points because he has a fear os stairs and can’t actually go up or down stairs (when no lift available) without a lot of encouragement and having someone with him. He also cannot plan a journey and gets very distressed if he loses sight of us and also cannot go anywhere on his own due to not being road weary, but going through an appeal myself has been so draining that I didn’t bother to ask for a mandatory reconsideration or appeal and now it’s too late.

Try not to worry too much - I put my foot down regarding speaking up for my son and that seemed to help. I tried not to be rude about it but I’m sure she thought I was rude. Yeah I didn’t know that you could appeal for up to 13 months of assessment - I’m kind of wondering if I should, but not sure at how to go about it? Perhaps @Username_removed can help? I’ll also have to talk to my son because I’m unsure on how he would cope with the stress of the appeal. The system with PIP is so flawed and despite the governemnts reassurance that the poor and vulnerable would not be affected they sure as heck were! 

EDIT: Sorry forgot to add, I can’t really remember how long we were in there but it didn’t seem all the long, maybe 20 mins but definitely no longer than 30 mins.

NOTE: Everything I say below is just my own suggestions & opinions. It could actually be a bad idea to be as provocative as I suggest below. But these are all things I wish I had done at my own reassessment, earlier this Monday.

Please request to record your assessment. They will lie through the skin of their teeth if you don't. I had mine recorded, and my assessor was still brutal. But I'm 100% certain she'd have been 10x worse, without the recording.

First of all be prepared to answer the same question in many different formulations. They will keep asking the same question using different ways, until they get an answer, which they can give you 0 for on the specific descriptor, you're talking about. Don't panic, and don't break under their assault, it will be difficult, because they have been trained to do this. Give your answer, if they're not typing it down after you give it, ask them directly why they're not writing it down (this may be over the top, but I wish I had done this more).

Also don't let them bully you. That's what they've been trained to do. If they ask you a question you think is not relevant to your son/daughter's condition. Say it! You got to put them on the back foot. Also, if you do go down the recording route. At the start, when the recorder is on. Ask them to state their ID name for the recording, along with that ridiculously long 20+ ID digit number they have. In my reassessment, she held it up, and stuck it in my face. If they ask you to read it yourself, tell them the car journey there has made you feel dizzy. Force them to read it out themselves. They have to do it, if it's on recording. Furthermore, you are allowed to request to see everything they write down on their computer. Also you can request they read/describe it aloud to you. This might be a useful tool to use, if you feel you need a break, to slow the pace down and get a breather. It's in their own PIP Assessment booklet, on pg 9. Exercise your right to do this. If they talk to fast, tell them to read it again slowly. Also, if there's anything uncomfortable about the assessment room you're in e.g. not enough desk space to write notes, mention it on recording. Give a detailed description of everything you find uncomfortable about the room you're in. I really wish I had done this myself. As my room had no windows, no clock, it was basically a Guantanamo bay torture chamber. Also if the lights are too bright, say that too.

Another thing I thought of. Perhaps wait until the end of the assessment, when they ask if you have any more questions. Ask them if they are familiar with your son's/daughter's specific condition. If they say yes, ask them to give a definition of this condition in their own words. If they botch this up, it will bite them in the ass down the line. I think it might be better to say this at the end of the assessment. As if you do it at the beginning, I'm slightly concerned could be labelled as an uncooperative claimant. If you say it at the end, you've already got the assessment recorded anyway, so they can't exactly throw you out at this stage.

I had my reassessment on Monday, all of the above are things I wish I had done. If they are rude to you, don't be rude back. Just be calm and point out on recording that you thought what they said was inappropriate. If they are shown to lose their cool and be rude, they will look extremely unprofessional down the line.

The only thing I'm 100% sure about, is your chances increase a lot more if you record the assessment. You will need to bring/buy your own 2x recorders and audio tapes. I would also highly recommend 2x external microphones, as inbuilt mics on recorders are terrible. I bought my 2x external microphones for £12 each off Amazon, and they were both worth every penny. My recorders were £24 each from Argos, again, worth every penny (however, I had to return the first one, and get a speedy replacement, as it was defective). I wouldn't risk a 2x60min audio tape, get 2x 90min ones, just in case. Also you need to ring up their customer service number, and let them know at least 3 days in advance, you wish to record. They might give it to you with 2 days notice, their customer service advisers are a Russian Roulette at times, sometimes you get a decent one, other times they're aggressive & outright rude, sometimes inbetween. If you get a provocative one, might be best to just end the call. Ring back up, and you might get a better one. No point wasting time dealing with a bad one, that won't budge.

I'm still waiting to hear the result of my reassessment. I have no idea how it went. I was on enhanced daily living and standard mobility before. My assessor's report is apparently on the way to me. And I should get to see it in a week's time. Anything that was omitted from my recording, I'll be mentioning in detail in my Mandatory Reconsideration.

@jaycee6 I’m not sure but from what I recall when I asked for a mandatory reconsideration for my own assessment they asked me what points did they want me to reconsider. I even have further evidence from his school who are asking for his care plan to be changed due to his fear of stairs and that they have been unsuccessful with trying to make him a little bit more independant. They also agree that he needs supervision when he goes out as he gets distracted and he can quite easily and has done put his life at risk. The amount of times my heart has stopped when he’s tried to cross the road unthinkingly when there’s a car coming I’m surprised that it’s still beating! I just have panick attacks everytime I think about it and I’m glad that he’s had someone there to stop him from getting knocked down. I haven’t had a chance to talk to my son yet about the mandatory reconsideration because he’s too upset about missing an open day today at a special needs college that he’s looking to go to when he leaves six form (a long story but we’ve had a bit of bad luck) so I thought it best to approach him when he’s calmed down about that.

Also, they allowed me and my husband in on the assessment.

@Username_removed thank you for your response regarding mandatory reconsideration. If I were to request one would saying about my son getting distressed regarding starting an appeal about his low points score on mobility be a reasonable response as to why I haven’t asked earlier? That and the stress and anxiety of my own appeal are the only reasons why we didn’t ask for the decision to be looked at again.

I’m still unsure on how he’s going to react and I’ve had to learn to be his voice (I don’t do well in social situations either) over the years and when I went for my tribunal my husband wasn’t allowed to talk for me, he was only allowed to clarify or confirm something I wasn’t sure about (ie what date I went to see the neurologist, or the last time I actually went to the supermarket - I suffer from sensory overload and I absolutely hate the noise when I go shopping so I only go if we’re already out for another reason, like a hospital appointment and we need to get a few things on the way home) that I’m scared for him if it goes to tribunal that he’s not going to be able to answer the questions they ask him and they won’t allow me to talk.

@Username_removed
I don't have any evidence to back up my claim. Which is not a good starting position, however, surely, if the assessor omits certain things from the assessor's report, that can be confirmed to of been said, via the recording. The DWP would then have to look at this in the Mandatory Reconsideration stage. I have already spoken to the DWP about this, as I know for a fact, when I was explaining certain parts of my condition, that I know to be relevant to the descriptor, she was not writing it down. By not writing it down, she's performing a diagnosis of my condition, which she is not qualified to do, it also says in Atos' own booklet, they won't try to do this.

So if the DWP do agree that certain omissions were made by the assessor, that are relevant to my condition, they would accept my appeal at this stage, based on the evidence (recording), rather than me having to go to a tribunal, whether the assessor made this omission due to gross: negligence, incompetence or misconduct. Is of no consequence to me. That's for Atos to deal with. I'm not sure if I could sue them actually, under the 2010 Equality Act, however, the assessor could perhaps get away with saying they just forgot to enter these details i.e. plead ignorance/stupidity. I guess the only way to prove it was deliberate, would be for after each answer you give, to ask the assessor to say aloud for the tape, what they have written. Which is allowed, according to pg 9 of their own PIP Assessment booklet.

I have no legal training whatsoever. So everything I've just said, is based on my own logic and reasoning. Either way, if a single thing that's relevant to my condition, was omitted from that assessor's report, that was clearly said by me on tape, affects my award, I feel I have the right to state that, and it will be up to the DWP, to decide whether the HP's diagnosis of my condition, supersedes that of my Diagnostic Assessment Report, from a qualified Clinical Psychologist.

Username_removed said:

I’m afraid you’re coming at this from the wrong tack. The fact a HCP omits something in itself is not grounds for an MR. It depends on whether what was omitted would have changed the recommended points score. There’s also no legal obligation on a HCP to note everything you say. It would be impractical and near impossible. You have no basis for an EA 10 claim at this stage. You may have cause for complaint to the assessment provider, especially if you can show they breached the DWP provider guidance (Google it) but that doesn’t take away from the need to do an MR

It’s also not a given that a HCP omission means they’re offering a diagnosis. Unless their report gives you an entirely different diagnosis then you simply can’t assert that. It’s almost unheard of for a provider to offer a different diagnosis. They will simply be recommending the points you do or don’t score. It’s unlikely your diagnosis will be in dispute so a diagnostic report from a Clinical Psych will be largely irrelevant unless it clearly addresses which points you ought to score.

Again, there are no automatic grounds for MR and you are mistaken if you proceed on the assumption you have enough to avoid an appeal. Providing DWP with an independently transcribed copy of your recording will help but it still doesn’t establish that you score enough points and, ultimately, that’s what you need to do. If you yourself are not clear what points you score then you can be pretty confident you don’t yet have enough focus on the right things to make your case.

The 3 points I bolded are what's relevant to my specific case. What I think will be omitted, will have changed the points score. As I have received points for the exact example I used, in every PIP Assessment I've been to.

I didn't say I wouldn't need to do an MR. I said I wouldn't have to go to tribunal, if I won at the MR stage.

On the recorder, for one example I used for a descriptor. She says something like, that is not relevant for PIP. When I in fact know it is, because I've received points for it. Maybe diagnosis is the wrong word, her ignorance of what does, and does not meet points criteria, may have costed me points, that I would have received, if she had written it down, because she did not write it down, the DM will not get to read it, and decide for themselves. And like I said, I know it does warrant me points, because I have received points for it in the part. Therefore, the recording should give me points, that I would not have received, without said recording. As it would be her word against, mine. If I can prove my assessor to be "unreliable", in terms of not writing down things that I said, that do in fact meets points criteria, surely that will work in my favour. And means recording your PIP assessment, is hugely beneficial. As without the recording, it's he said, she said, which means I'm on the tribunal waiting list again. I want to win this at MR, and not wait for another tribunal. I believe I can do this, if she has omitted things I said, that would have gotten me points, had she wrote them down.

I could just be being paranoid, and she wrote down the things that I said, after I left, perhaps she re-listened to the audio herself later on. Just to avoid getting into a tricky situation. I can't see any downside in recording, apart from the initial outlay of cash to buy the recorder. I think if you record, you take that "easy target sign" off your back. If you don't record, they can make up the whole report, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's your word against theirs, even if you bring someone with you, their evidence won't count for much, as they're not independent. A recording is irrefutable evidence.

Hi F4J

I agree it has become a huge game of ping pong between the assessors, decision makers, tribunals, with ourselves and others.  It is no wonder the NHS is struggling with the extra amount of disabled people suffering from stress related problems.

In one assessment when asked about eating I told her I can only eat small amounts I would probably just have a piece of toast or a bit of soup.  When the report came back it said  "she reguraly makes her own soup". I took this up with the DM and told them I eat ready made soup and was told  "well that really doesn't matter your obviously managing to get some sustenance".  I had dropped to around 7stone and it also said in the report I looked very thin and pale.

Many months later at the tribunal most of the questions were about peeling and chopping up potatoes, carrots and other veg, boiling water and lifting pans,  I said I cant do that but they pushed and pushed saying but if you had to could you, in the end I said if I really had to I suppose I could.  (big mistake)!  It was not until afterwards when I remembered soupgate that I understood why they were asking all those questions. That's just one example of many. 

With regards using aids I may be wrong but it seems you can be penalized when you do as in some cases they see it as a problem solved and you therefore need less help.  So by you setting an alarm to remind you to do things it could be argued you don't need prompting as you are capable of prompting yourself.  We both know things are not that simple but that is the way they think. 

Anyway hope you get a good decision and don't have to go through another tribunal.  Best wishes Rosie