PIP - 3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.

Trev121 · June 2018

Hi,

I will be applying for PIP over the next few weeks.

I read somewhere a few weeks ago that because of some recent court ruling, some of the descriptor points for PIP question 3 were to be increased.
The descriptor which would be applicable to me would be:

3. b. (11) Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication. 1 point

Does anyone know if this will be increasing to 2 points soon, please?

regards

T

wilko · June 2018

Hi Trev121, sorry for the delay I was out on Scooter when I saw your post and didn't have the up-to-date date information. Here goes 0 points for not needing help for meds ect. 1 point for supervision. 2 points if need of suppervisis upto 3.5hrs per week. 4 points for supervision from 3.5 to 7hrs per week. 6 points for 7 to 14 hrs supervision per week. And 8 points for more than 14 hrs per week. But this is still open to interpretation by the acessor and DWP.

wilko · June 2018

Hi Trev121, if you can manage meds, 0 points. If you need some supervision 1 points. If you need supervision for upto 3.5hrs s week 2 points. If you need supervision from 3.5 to 7 hrs a week 4 points. If you need supervision from 7 to 14 hours per week 6 points. And more than 14 hrs per week 8 points. These can br miss interpretated by the acessor and the DWP

Yadnad · June 2018

Does therapy also mean taking medication.

Trev121 · June 2018

Thanks, Wilko for your reply - although with due respect, I'm still slightly confused.
As, like Yadnad, I'm wondering about the difference, if any.
Whilst I take inhalers/capsules for COPD, and fit the bill for the descriptor...
"Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication... ", as I regularly forget whether I've taken each one, I do not have actual therapy - and I suppose taking medication does not count/mean having actual therapy, does it?

I cannot remember where I read it, but I thought I saw an article weeks ago which implied a new court ruling stated the above descriptor would receive 2 points instead of the one soon, which it currently receives - which would have made a big difference.

regards
T

[Deleted User] · June 2018

I would’ve thought it included taking meds as I also need prompting, supervising, being told what to take and when due to short term memory loss and fatigue I forget what I’ve had and could potentially miss a dose or take too much? I also have to do 30mins evening & morning of physio therapy increased by double when I am ill ? so that will count towards it to won’t it?

debbiedo49 · June 2018

So how and who decides which cases will be reviewed. Also at my pip tribunal they did not count using an app on my phone as a tool to help me remember to take my medication. They would count a dosset box and asked me why I didn’t use one. In modern technology we have apps to help us to do so many things. Surely apps should be included as a tool for things like this? I don’t use a dosset box because my chemist is so busy with dosset boxes that they cannot take on more people just now and I find the idea restricting and unattractive for a younger independent modern person like myself. I see it as an older persons thing shoot me down if you must! I don’t trust other people with my personal stuff and people make mistakes and meds change. That’s way too much room for error for me.

Yadnad · June 2018

Username_removed said:

What you’re actually looking for is this.

https://gcnchambers.co.uk/secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-acknowledges-getting-law-wrong-again-on-meaning-of-pip-descriptors-will-have-to-conduct-review-of-old-cases/

I Mike, am I right in saying that whilst those appeals were withdrawn the amendment to descriptors 3 dated 2017 still stands? I see that a JR may well be needed to clarify the position as to whether the 'amendment' was actually legal? In the meantime are the DWP still standing by the change in that taking medication is NOT the same as taking therapy?

Trev121 · June 2018

Many thanks for everybody's imput so far.

But could I have a bit more advice, if anyone can offer it, please.

As said, I have COPD, which is, incase anyone's not familiar, a progressive and chronic lung condition that causes constant breathing difficulties. When diagnosed with this condition, most patients are advised that there are 3 essential treatments neccessary to try to manage the condition in order to stop it deteriorating rapidly:

1/ medication, ie, inhalers, capsules, etc, 2/ diet of fresh fruit/vegetables, 3/ regular exercise

It's genuine that my doctor and other docs/specialists have told me from the start that I regularly need to get exercise to help the oxygen quality in my lungs, etc, which it's also called Pulmonary rehabilitation. So 30 minutes a day at home would/could be deemed necessary.

There are also articles stating this: Therapeutic exercise in patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

The trouble is that I find it hard to motivate myself to do this, especially as it easily leaves me breathless, so do genuinely need prompting, if not supervision.

So am I right in thinking that this would come under the descriptor?

PIP 3c

"Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week" 2 points

regards

T

Waylay · June 2018

The points haven't changed, it's what gets you which points which has.
For someone who has a chronic condition which requires medication/monitoring:

Before the recent decision: ‘Therapy’ excluded treatment which consisted of the monitoring of a health condition and administration of medication.

After the recent decision: Monitoring a condition and/or taking meds now count as 'therapy'.

I BELIEVE this means the following:

Example A: You have a chronic health condition. You need to take medication 3 times a day, but you forget a lot, so someone has to prompt/supervise/assist you.
Both before and after the decision you get b: 1 point, because you just need someone to prompt/supervise/assist you to take your meds.

Example B: You have a chronic health condition. You do physiotherapy for 30 minutes a day, and you need to take medication 3 times a day. Unfortunately you forget to do both of these a lot. To make sure that you do your physio and take your meds, someone has to prompt/supervise/assist you.
- Before the decision: You need prompting/supervision/assistance to do your physio for 3.5 hours a week, and you need prompting/supervision/assistance to take your meds 3 times a day. Because taking meds doesn't count as therapy, the total amount of time you need p/s/a for therapy is 3.5 hours. You get c: 2 points.
- After the decision: you get: You need prompting/supervision/assistance to do your physio for 3.5 hours a week, and you need prompting/supervision/assistance to take your meds 3 times a day. Now taking your meds *does*t count as therapy. How long does it take someone to p/s/a you to take the meds? 5 minutes, 3 times a day, 7 days a week = 1.75 hours. So the total amount of time you need p/s/a for therapy is 3.5 hours + 1.75 hours = 5.25 hours. You get d: 4 points.

(Remember: Prompting, supervision, and assistance are different things)

-------------------------------------

Descriptors for Question 3:
a. (0 points)
Either –
(i) does not receive medication or therapy or need to monitor a health condition; or
(ii) can manage medication or therapy or monitor a health condition unaided.

b. (1 point)
Needs either –
(i) to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage medication; or
(ii) supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor a health condition.

c. (2 points)
Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week.

d. (4 points)
Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 3.5 but no more than 7 hours a week.

e. (6 points)
Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 7 but no more than 14 hours a week.

f. (8 points)
Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 14 hours a week.
--------------------------------------

Waylay · June 2018

@Trev121 "Therapy" means therapy to be undertaken at home which is prescribed or recommended by
a—
(a) registered –
(i) doctor;
(ii) nurse; or
(iii) pharmacist; or
(b) health professional regulated by the Health Professions Council;

So yeah, that sounds right.

Always pays to look up the words they use in benefits applications. They tend to define them very strictly.

Trev121 · June 2018

Thanks Waylay, what excellent advice - just what I need to know. Thanks everyone else, as well for your input.

Yadnad · June 2018

Waylay said:

The points haven't changed, it's what gets you which points which has.
For someone who has a chronic condition which requires medication/monitoring:

Before the recent decision: ‘Therapy’ excluded treatment which consisted of the monitoring of a health condition and administration of medication.

After the recent decision: Monitoring a condition and/or taking meds now count as 'therapy'.

I'm still confused.

Therapy is not the same as taking medication.

supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor a health condition will get you 1 point.

Therapy however will get you between 2 and 8 points depending on how many hours you have that therapy for in a week. - Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy

Are you suggesting that therapy is the same as taking medication?

If so you should also be counting the minutes each day for taking medication AND engaging in therapy.
.
As an example, I am a type 1 diabetic. I require supervision, prompting or assistance to maintain my blood sugar levels and the amount of insulin I should be taking. Insulin is a drug (medicine) and therefore is not therapy. I take copious amounts of different pain relief medication including morphine which is a restricted drug. I require supervision, prompting or assistance in taking that medication so as to avoid an overdose That is also medication and not therapy.

All of that will give me 1 point - that is if the assessor/DWP accept that the supervision, prompting or assistance is a requirement and not a personal choice which is how the DWP saw my needs.

Therapy to me is something that either you have third party intervention or you receive treatment other than by way of medication.

Yadnad · June 2018

Waylay said:

@Trev121 "Therapy" means therapy to be undertaken at home which is prescribed or recommended by
a—
(a) registered –
(i) doctor;
(ii) nurse; or
(iii) pharmacist; or
(b) health professional regulated by the Health Professions Council;

So yeah, that sounds right.

Always pays to look up the words they use in benefits applications. They tend to define them very strictly.

That doesn't actually define what therapy itself means.

Yadnad · June 2018

Trev121 said:

Many thanks for everybody's imput so far.

But could I have a bit more advice, if anyone can offer it, please.

As said, I have COPD, which is, incase anyone's not familiar, a progressive and chronic lung condition that causes constant breathing difficulties. When diagnosed with this condition, most patients are advised that there are 3 essential treatments neccessary to try to manage the condition in order to stop it deteriorating rapidly:

1/ medication, ie, inhalers, capsules, etc, 2/ diet of fresh fruit/vegetables, 3/ regular exercise

It's genuine that my doctor and other docs/specialists have told me from the start that I regularly need to get exercise to help the oxygen quality in my lungs, etc, which it's also called Pulmonary rehabilitation. So 30 minutes a day at home would/could be deemed necessary.

I presume pulmonary fibrosis as well as being diagnosed with chronic asthma is similar. I have this disease to the right lung in a severe way (according to the CT report)
And yes the GP did say exercise and medication (various inhalers) is all that they can offer by way of treatment.
Considering that I can't walk beyond 10 metres (as confirmed by the spinal unit) and have arthritis exercise is out of the question.

The assessor/DWP in the reports suggested that I didn't have any difficulty walking up to 200 metres and that the lung disease is mild and therefore my assortations where exaggerated.

[Deleted User] · June 2018

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[Deleted User] · June 2018

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whistles · June 2018

Regardless of whether medication is now included or not, you still have to satisfy the dwp that you need supervision and prompting. They decided I didn't need that or the dosset box because my memory was fine.
I beg to differ which is why the chemist do the lot, however- that wasn't considered as evidence of my poor memory.
How do you prove that!

Apps are not tools or aids. I think one of the reasons being is they get used by non disabled / ill people. They are not specifically aimed at helping us, just making able people lazy!!

[Deleted User] · June 2018

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poppy123456 · June 2018

I disagree. A dosset box is classed as an aid for managing therapy.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form/5-managing-treatments/

Which would score you 1 point.

[Deleted User] · June 2018

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PIP - 3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.

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