PIP, DLA and AA
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Help for a local guy who is stuck between a rock and a hard place - PIP

YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
This may resonate with some PIP applicants after talking to a local resident this afternoon who not surprisingly had his DLA (high mobility & middle rate care) taken off him and was awarded just 4 points for the care element

In filling in the PIP2 claim form he did not include all of his illnesses etc and consequently how those missing conditions impacted on his life. He gave the reasons that (a) who is going to believe him, and (b) he had no evidence whatsoever that proved the impact of them.

He failed to mention all of his mobility issues (believing that the previous DLA speaks for that in any event) as well as his mental health problems(which are numerous and reasonably serious).  Instead he concentrated on those conditions that he had the evidence for (as per current GP records).

To be honest he is not one for taking up opportunities given to him by his GP to discuss these problems with the professionals. Also he fails to take quite a bit of his medication that the GP has authorised e.g. he receives (should receive) his medication on a monthly basis but his monthly supply lasts him up 4/5 months. He also misses regular appointments for his mental health as well as the normal DiabeticType 1 checks (eyes, blood sugar levels etc)

Not being the expert in claiming welfare benefits and certainly not PIP (as per my own personal history) I had no advice to give to him as to what to do now. Does he apply for a MR based on what he has written on the PIP2 or does he come 'clean' and tell the DWP that over a half of his problems were never put on the PIP2? 
Given that he has little evidence if he did admit his failure is it possible that the DWP would be suspicious of this revised claim when no evidence can be handed over. Would it prejudice an appeal at a Tribunal?

He like myself has no welfare rights organisations that could be trusted to work with him.
He is 69 and lives on his own (albeit he has a dog for company) 

Replies

  • MisscleoMisscleo Member Posts: 646 Pioneering
    I think high persentage of people on this site are in the same boat
  • TardisTardis Member Posts: 214 Pioneering
    I don't understand how he can have left over half of his problems off the form?  The questions are about how you manage the various activities.  Do you mean he said he had no problems with half the activities when he really does?   It is going to be very hard to get points for those activities at MR or appeal if he has stated on the PIP2 form that he has no difficulty with them.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Totally agree with Tardis here, it's going to be very difficult to convince anyone now. This just proves that you should never miss anything out, even if you don't have evidence to prove it. Personally i think he needs expert advice here and asking on an internet forum as a third person isn't the way to go about it.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Tardis said:
    I don't understand how he can have left over half of his problems off the form?  The questions are about how you manage the various activities.  Do you mean he said he had no problems with half the activities when he really does?   It is going to be very hard to get points for those activities at MR or appeal if he has stated on the PIP2 form that he has no difficulty with them.
    Apparently he thought that there was no point claiming for something when he knew he had no evidence to back any of it up.
    I obviously haven't seen the PIP2 form so I have no idea what he put on it. But given what he has told me, yes he would have probably said that the section that could relate to the missing issues were marked as 'not applicable'.
    Yes he actually has problems but failed to mention them for the above reason. 

    His general opinion is what he told me - what's the point in telling the DWP of them when no one is going to believe him through lack of evidence.

    I agree it's what I thought too. Not only would he have to explain why they were omitted and then explain what the impact of them is remembering that the DWP and a possible tribunal would say that it is asking far too much to expect anyone to believe him - thus in a roundabout sort of way proving his original attitude was right all along. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Totally agree with Tardis here, it's going to be very difficult to convince anyone now. This just proves that you should never miss anything out, even if you don't have evidence to prove it. Personally i think he needs expert advice here and asking on an internet forum as a third person isn't the way to go about it.
    I must agree with you Poppy and that is what I too think he should do.


    Maybe the actual answer is to tell the DWP now of a change of circumstance or as he does not have a current PIP claim, ask for a new PIP2 to start off a new claim and this time fill it out in all it's glory evidence or not.

    What I can confirm is that there are no welfare rights agencies locally bar the CAB which is useless (my experience) or AgeUK where there is someone that can help fill out the form and not a lot else - they just don't have the expertise.   
  • TardisTardis Member Posts: 214 Pioneering
    I believe you said CAB and AgeUK were the advice agencies in your area?  Has he tried them?  No chance he's ex military and could use the RBL advice service?
  • YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Misscleo said:
    I think high persentage of people on this site are in the same boat
    That doesn't surprise me one bit. Especially if they are not that clued up with the PIP processes.
  • YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Tardis said:
    I believe you said CAB and AgeUK were the advice agencies in your area?  Has he tried them?  No chance he's ex military and could use the RBL advice service?
    Not ex military.
    CAB are worse than useless that's if you actually manage to get in to see someone. AgeUK are OK 'ish for filling in forms and not a lot else.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Change if circumstances isn't possible because he doesn't have a PIP award at present.

    Starting a new claim is possible of course but if they look back at his recent claim and compare them they may wonder why those conditions and how they affect him weren't mentioned on the previous form. I'm not saying the look back, i have no idea on that one but anything is possible with DWP, especially only just been refused.

    There's one other thing i've just remembered, sorry i'm tired today and not had the best of days (pain is bad today) If not mentioning those conditions and how they affect him is this classed as a worsening of condition? It would be if they weren't mentioned at all in the PIP2 form. They will only take into consideration what he was like at the time of the decision, same for the Tribunal. A difficult one to answer for me to be honest because i don't want to advise you incorrectly. Maybe mike the expert will be able to help you further. Maybe tag him and he'll see it eventually.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • TardisTardis Member Posts: 214 Pioneering
    Can he start a new claim if he is 69? 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    He needs to get expert help asap. It is not possible to make a new claim for PIP at 69 so he must pursue this as far as possible
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • YadnadYadnad Member [under moderation] Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited November 2018
    You are right I forgot about the age limit. Looks like his only way forward is the appeal route and in doing so explain why he failed to complete the PIP2 fully.

    Personally I don't rate his chances as it could be seen that he is only putting these 'extras' in because he has already failed to get an award which in a way is actually true. I know that I would be suspicious as his reasons are beyond believable for most to accept.
     
    I'll call round in the morning and tell him that that really is his only option. Fancy blowing the opportunity like he has. I don't really want to get that involved simply because I am far from being an expert in all of this. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I missed the age part.... :#
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,778 Disability Gamechanger
    It is perfectly possible to resurrect this at the MR stage. The MR simply needs to detail what was left out of the PIP 2 and explain why. That isn’t to say it will succeed at that stage but it will at least set him up nicely for an appeal. 

    I’m afraid I don’t buy the “no evidence” line. It once again smacks of the incorrect belief that only medical evidence is evidence and asking doesn’t ring true. Even prior to a diagnosis we’re all able to describe both symptoms and anecdotes as ti the impact. 

    If he’s a DLA to PIP conversion and believes that his DLA award spoke for itself then during the conversion call he will of course have also asked for all the evidence used to determine his DLA award to be taken into account. If he didn’t then, putting aside that wouldn’t stack up with his belief his DLA spoke for itself, there’s nothing to stop him asking for that to happen at this stage. Case law demands that the PIP 1 should at least be in the appeal papers.

    There seems to also to be an implication that “no evidence” means his GP doesn’t know of some of his health issues. That strikes me as unlikely given that he’s receiving meds on a monthly basis but either way it’s easy to remedy. Go see the GP; explain the history; get sent to a specialist if necessary but the mere act of going would add to medical records. 

    The question of whether DWP would be suspicious is frankly neither here nor there. A complete red herring. What determines an award is the quality and type of evidence. Any decision which focuses on a justification of “we think it lacks credibility because he didn’t say it from the off” is erroneous in law. It’s an irrelevant consideration. A history of mental health issues would be more than enough to suggest issues with disclosure meds etc. 

    One of the fascinating things in welfare rights is claimants persistence in thinking their case is more complex than it is and contains some unique element which they see as potentially insurmountable. Most cases are rarely that and this falls absolutely into that category.

    A claim has failed for want of sufficient evidence. Do an MR and provide the evidence. It’s really no more complex than that.
  • Laura99Laura99 Member Posts: 62 Courageous
    I agree entirely with the above comments.

    I also think that this case leads us back nicely to the question of a claimant's own submissions/his or her partner's own submissions, and whether or not the DWP gives weight to this evidence, as opposed to the evidence of a GP.

    And please, before anyone posts anything about the possibility of fraudulent evidence likely provided by partners (or even friends) DON'T say it! My mental health cannot cope with that again.
  • ShlblyShlbly Member Posts: 125 Pioneering
    Hi I’ve had a similar thing happen to me, my first form was filled out by a professional who didn’t know me and was sent because I was having a home assessment for care at the time. She filled out the form from an old ESA one, I was to unwell to assist with this at the time and the DWP were asked to look at information from DLA evidence, they didn’t take any notice of it and went ahead with everything the assessor had put. I the had no help with the MR and Appeal and failed. I then had to put in a new claim, which I know he cannot due due to age. So I suggest he gets help with MR, have you not got a disability drop in centre or anything near you, this is who helped me in the end? Good luck with it all, hope it all rights itself in the end. 
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