PIP downgrade warning by tribunal
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Sassafras
Community member Posts: 12 Listener
I thought I was going to have a PIP tribunal hearing today. But it was adjourned to allow me the opportunity to think about the fact that tribunal may downgrade my award.
As it currently stands I have 10 points for “cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid” because of my mental health issues. And that’s all I have.
I had an assessment prior to the DWP decision which gave me four points for “needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant”. However the decision maker decided not to go along with the report an instead gave me the above mentioned 10 points. Accordingly, this is not in dispute.
From the Googling I’ve done since I got back from the tribunal it seems it’s fairly unusual to give such a warning which essentially means the judge was minded to downgrade my current award. It seems there is something the judge thought needed addressing.
But my application was supported by a letter from a psychologist (non NHS) which confirmed my need to be accompanied by someone else on an unfamiliar journey. And I went to the tribunal (which was an unfamiliar journey for me) with the assistance of another person.
I don’t understand what would have made the judge think, on her initial perusal of the papers, that I needed to be given such a warning. If anyone has any ideas, they would be gratefully received.
As it currently stands I have 10 points for “cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid” because of my mental health issues. And that’s all I have.
I had an assessment prior to the DWP decision which gave me four points for “needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant”. However the decision maker decided not to go along with the report an instead gave me the above mentioned 10 points. Accordingly, this is not in dispute.
From the Googling I’ve done since I got back from the tribunal it seems it’s fairly unusual to give such a warning which essentially means the judge was minded to downgrade my current award. It seems there is something the judge thought needed addressing.
But my application was supported by a letter from a psychologist (non NHS) which confirmed my need to be accompanied by someone else on an unfamiliar journey. And I went to the tribunal (which was an unfamiliar journey for me) with the assistance of another person.
I don’t understand what would have made the judge think, on her initial perusal of the papers, that I needed to be given such a warning. If anyone has any ideas, they would be gratefully received.
Comments
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I know nothing so take this with a grain of salt...
But I think you're right that they might be thinking about downgrading. I would probably take the award unless you can send in better proof That will get you points in the daily living component
Pretty unrelated but I watched a YouTube video on someone's pip tribunal, which was adjourned because he knew one of the panel members or something. The judge said to him just before he left as the tribunal couldn't go on, this is probably a good thing because it wouldn't have went well for him based off what was seen and recommended him getting medical records etc.
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy. -
Hi and welcomeHow long is your current award ?What points or descriptors do you think you meet the criteria for ?Others may have different ideas but I would be mindful of the judges warning, take what you have and wait for your next reviewBe all you can be, make every day count. Namaste
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Pipquestions2 said:
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy. -
Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy.
Where else do you think you should have scored points and why?
Unless you can muster up 8+ points in the daily living component it's probably best to just leave it imo. If your problems are mental ( sorry if I read that wrong in the OP), it's harder to do this because a lot of the descriptors are focused on physical problems but it's not impossible. -
CockneyRebel said:Hi and welcomeHow long is your current award ?What points or descriptors do you think you meet the criteria for ?Others may have different ideas but I would be mindful of the judges warning, take what you have and wait for your next review
The award is until 22 July 2020.
These are the descriptors I believe apply to me (as does my psychologist):
“Cannot prepare and cook food”, 8 points
“Needs social support to be able to engage with other people”, 4 points
"Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid", 10 points
I am mindful of the judges warning, but surprised since the appeal is so well supported by a psychologist and the current award is not disputed by DWP.
As you can probably gather from the above descriptors, attending the court building was quite the ordeal and required a lot of support. I don't think I have the capacity to continue. -
Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy.
Where else do you think you should have scored points and why?
Unless you can muster up 8+ points in the daily living component it's probably best to just leave it imo. If your problems are mental ( sorry if I read that wrong in the OP), it's harder to do this because a lot of the descriptors are focused on physical problems but it's not impossible.
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Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy.
Where else do you think you should have scored points and why?
Unless you can muster up 8+ points in the daily living component it's probably best to just leave it imo. If your problems are mental ( sorry if I read that wrong in the OP), it's harder to do this because a lot of the descriptors are focused on physical problems but it's not impossible.
4 points for mixing with people won't get you pip so you'll have to explain why exactly you can't cook.
I can't cook either and I scored 2 points (need prompted to cook) but luckily I got the other 4 in communication to get the award. Even though I can't cook and don't feel like I can learn, at least right now, my disability doesn't prevent me from learning if that makes sense and that's the angle they look at hence why I only got 2 points. -
Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:Pipquestions2 said:
So it's possible the judge is trying to do you a favour here too, like he did with that guy.
Where else do you think you should have scored points and why?
Unless you can muster up 8+ points in the daily living component it's probably best to just leave it imo. If your problems are mental ( sorry if I read that wrong in the OP), it's harder to do this because a lot of the descriptors are focused on physical problems but it's not impossible. -
ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
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Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help. -
Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
4 points for saftey from what I understand is more for things like siezures where you might take a fit holding a knife or something.
Even though it's not an accurate reflection of your difficulties I get the impression you'd only get 2 points for prompted like I did, giving you 6 daily living and 10 mobility at best - which would put you in the same situation you're at now. But you haven't said much so it's hard to be sure.
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poppy123456 said:Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
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Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
Even though it's not an accurate reflection of your difficulties I get the impression you'd only get 2 points for prompted like I did, giving you 6 daily living and 10 mobility at best - which would put you in the same situation you're at now. But you haven't said much so it's hard to be sure. -
ilovecats said:Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
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@Sassafras - i don't understand the bit about "sequential care tasks" so it's difficult to see what the 'upside' is..
If the judge is suggesting that you might lose the award you already have I'd take the hint, and stick with what you've got....
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What you really should be doing is thinking carefully about your existing award, which could be downgraded. As you've already been warned by the Tribunal, then you really do need to get some expert face to face advice because no one knows anything about your case on a forum. For this reason it's impossible to give you any advice. This link will help you find what's available in your area. https://advicelocal.uk/
I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help. -
cristobal said:@Sassafras - i don't understand the bit about "sequential care tasks" so it's difficult to see what the 'upside' is..
If the judge is suggesting that you might lose the award you already have I'd take the hint, and stick with what you've got.... -
poppy123456 said:What you really should be doing is thinking carefully about your existing award, which could be downgraded. As you've already been warned by the Tribunal, then you really do need to get some expert face to face advice because no one knows anything about your case on a forum. For this reason it's impossible to give you any advice. This link will help you find what's available in your area. https://advicelocal.uk/
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ilovecats said:Pipquestions2 said:Sassafras said:ilovecats said:May I ask why you think 1F applies to you? I have never seen that awarded for mental health alone. Normally D for prompting or E for supervision due to a safety aspect are commonly awarded for mental health.
4 points for saftey from what I understand is more for things like siezures where you might take a fit holding a knife or something.
Even though it's not an accurate reflection of your difficulties I get the impression you'd only get 2 points for prompted like I did, giving you 6 daily living and 10 mobility at best - which would put you in the same situation you're at now. But you haven't said much so it's hard to be sure.
I have been corrected on here by others that it has been applied to other conditions on rare occasions such as severe epilepsy at a tribunal setting but I can only really advise from an assessors perspective. Caselaw and tribunals are not something I know much about and there could be occasions where an 1F was awarded to mental health in exceptional circumstances.
I remember seeing a very poorly lady once who have a very severe neurological condition and I personally felt that a 1F would have been appropriate however when I asked for advice from my CSL (clinical skills leader) she basically said unless they were paralysed I couldn’t award it because she walked into the assessment centre. The way the assessors are told to work, rightly or wrongly, is that someone claiming for a mental health condition who has two working arms and no cognitive deficits could prepare food with assistance.
Until the guidance is changed to reflect any tribunal outcomes or changes in law then that is the way it’ll continue to be awarded.
If the tribunal has given you this warning then I would seriously consider whether the restrictions you’re reporting can be evidenced robustly. If you feel they can then go for it. -
Hi @ilovecats
The warnings (more like stipulated guidance by HMCTS) are not worth a jot.
What needs to be considered, in the first instance, is the quality of the rebuttal
of the decision and it is most important that the claimant gets face to face advice from a welfare rights officer, rather than rely on an erstwhile PIP assessor.
Who openly discloses that she is not up to speed with caselaw or the tribunal system.
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