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Dressing and undressing

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riget
riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi, My assessor gave me 0pts for dressing even though I have a prosthetic leg and need an aid to dress/stand, she mentioned I use a grabber to put my trousers on, and acknowledged I need an aid to stand/sit but it seems because I can put diesel in my car and put the seat/belt on I can dress ok.

I'm waiting for the decision to come and have been thinking about how I get dressed, I take it getting dressed will include all clothes and as I have to put underwear on before my prostheses then the time taken must include the time to put my leg on, as I have no stump and sit in my leg it can take some time to put on, I'm sure getting dressed would take more than twice the time than someone without my disability so should it be reasonable to go for 8pts as I can't dress in a timely manner?
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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
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    Hi,

    It will only be possible to score 8 points here if you couldn't dress/undress at all. As it's your lower body then it will be 2 points for either descriptor B/C or D because they all score 2 points. It will depend if you use an aid or need assistance but they all score the same points.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • riget
    riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
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    Hi, yes I see they score 2pts but does the wording "Reliably, In a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely" relate to all activities?


    So someone who can walk 20metres would not get 12pts but if they couldn't do it in a timely fashion they would be deemed not able to do it and score the 12pts.


    Yes I can dress with an aid and score 2pts, but if I can't do it in a timely fashion then surely I be deemed not able to do it and score 8pts.
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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
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    Reliably, regularly apply yes but if you can dress your top half of your body then you won't score 8 points. If you look at the descriptors for this activity then you'll see that descriptor B is 2 points for needing an aid, B is 2 points for needing assistance and D is 2 points for assistance for the lower body. E is 4 points for assistance for the upper body and F is 8 points if you can't do it at all.

    If you use and aid for your lower body and you've already scored 2 points then this is correct, you won't be able to score anymore points for this activity because you can dress using an aid.




    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
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    @riget - you are correct about the reliability criteria..

    If it takes you more than twice as long as a person without your condition then I don't believe that this is 'reliable' - although it's difficult to say for certain because there isn't really as standard time for dressing, as far as I know.

    I doubt that you would be able to count the time taken to fit your prosthesis (since non-disabled persons don't do this) - only the time taken to actually dress.

    Just my opinion - maybe you could get more specialist advice face to face?
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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
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    @ilovecats any advice here please?
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
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    @riget @poppy123456 - logically, I suppose you should work out the total time for dressing and take of the time taken to fit the prosthesis...

    But what sounds logical and what's correct might be two different things!
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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
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    The time it takes to fit the prosthesis, is not considered for this activity.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • riget
    riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
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    As I wear clothes under and over my prostheses surely putting it on has to be part of getting dressed, 


    A quote from poppy123456's link:

    2.2 Reliability

    2.2.1 Central to the application of all the activities within the PIP assessment is a consideration of the manner in which they are undertaken. For a descriptor to be able to apply to a claimant, the claimant must be able to reliably complete the activity as described in the descriptor.

    2.2.2 Considering reliability involves looking at whether the claimant can complete the activity as described:

    • safely – in a manner unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person, either during or after completion of the activity

    • to an acceptable standard

    • repeatedly – able to repeat the activity as often as is reasonably required

    • in a reasonable time period – no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a non-disabled person would normally take to complete that activity

    2.2.3 This applies to every activity within the assessment. If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then they should be considered unable to complete it at that level and a different descriptor selected. For example when a claimant is only able to complete an activity safely when supervised, the appropriate descriptor which refers to supervision should be awarded.


    So a reasonably time period should apply to all activities.

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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
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    The time taken to put on your prostheses is not counted for this activity.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • riget
    riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
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    Yes I've seen your post while I was posting, but unlike a "normal" prostheses where it would be possible to dress/undress while wearing it, for me it's impossible.
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
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    @riget - 

    If you look at the examples given there may well be a clue as to how the DWP interpret the 'reasonable time' factor i.e. they don't talk about 'twice as long' but 'taking all morning' to cook breakfast and needing 2 hours to wash and dress.

    It doesn't sound like they would consider someone who takes, for example, fifteen minutes to dress instead of five minutes, as not being able to dress 'reliably'

    Doesn't mean that they are right, of course!

    Good luck - will you let us know how you get on please?

    Examples:-

    • an individual who becomes breathless and exhausted whilst washing and dressing, and needs 2 hours to complete these tasks

    • an individual who is physically capable of preparing a meal but whose need for formalised ritual means they take all morning to prepare breakfast

    • someone who, as a result of their health condition, has obsessive ideas around cleanliness and takes considerably prolonged periods of time to complete activities due to repetitive and extended hand washing



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  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
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    sadly they are inconsistent, I told my assessor I only needed to use my grabber occasionally, made it clear was a minority of the time and he gave me the descriptor.

    From what you have described 0 points seems ridiculous and I wish you the best of luck in challenging it.

    Note as cristobal has said the DWP (And their AP's) will have their own interpretation of the law and set their guidelines as such, but the DWP as proven time and time again are often not compliant with the law.

    The way I see it (and I can ask someone I know who has a ton of experience in pip appeals if you want), that if you need to attach or detach something to get dressed then that is part of getting dressed, if you need to use an aid when getting dressed or undressed at least half of the time, then the descriptor should apply.  I see it as no different to say e.g. putting a belt on if that belt is needed to hold your trousers up.

    Based on what you have described it doesnt sound like you should get the 8 points descriptor, as that would be if you are incapable of dressing/undressing yourself most of the time, but if you could only do this in a dangerous manner, or taking a long time, or unable to do it repeatedly you could perhaps make a case for the 8 points.  
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
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    @worried33 @riget -  the DWP don't seem rush to consider someone who is only able to carry out a task slowly as not being able to do it "reliably" - you can understand this I suppose...

    I've just noticed that the DWP's example above about "washing and dressing" isn't a good one - since they're two separate things, and there isn't a descriptor for 'washing'!

    Apart from that it's fine...
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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 54,006 Disability Gamechanger
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    @cristobal There is a descriptor for washing, it's activity 4, it's washing and bathing.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
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    @poppy123456 - thanks for the correction...I'd always considered this to be getting in and out of the bath & shower rather than actually washing...you are correct...

    @riget & DWP -- please accept my apologies for confusing the issue!

    PS My point still stands though - before I was ill I guess I could dress & wash (excluding having a shave as this doesn't count) in about 10 minutes.

    If I said that I can't do this 'reliably' as it now takes me 20 minutes I imagine that everyone at DWP would roll around laughing - but it is actually within their guidelines...
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  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
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    cristobal, I would think the time taken would be under this? "in a reasonable time period"

    But still the DWP guidelines I dont consider "law", but it means if their guidelines dont agree its appeal time :(
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
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    @worried33 - I agree.

    If it takes me twenty minutes to do something I previously could do in less than ten then as far as I'm concerned it's not in a reasonable time period and therefore not 'reliable'...seems to be quite clear.

    However it's useful to know that the DWP see this differently - even if it doesn't comply with their own guidelines.

    As I mentioned above this is probably why their examples seem to give extreme examples such as "taking all morning to prepare breakfast" rather than "taking ten minutes to make beans and sausage on toast instead of five.."


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  • riget
    riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
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    Thanks for the replies, I'll have to wait for the dm letter but if he is as poor as the assessor and only gives me 6pts for care I'll be going for 12 or more in the mr and appeal, I believe I should have 8pts and that's what I think I deserve but if they try to put me down I'll go for the highest possible, also I'll go for points in taking nutrition as I can't chew and swallow reliably due to the time it takes me to eat a meal.
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  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
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    @riget - good luck; let us all know!
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  • riget
    riget Community member Posts: 29 Listener
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    ilovecats said:
    Just my 2 cents . . . 

    A single lower limb amputee (with no other medical / disability issues) would at most score a B for Activity 6. 

    Sitting to dress is not generally considered an aid however if someone has a condition that causes them to need to lie on a bed because they cannot stand to dress then 2 point could be awarded because they would need a prosthetic to stand.

    Unfortunately it’s a bit hit and miss. I would always award the 2 points, it’s not my money! 

    Others assessors take the view that someone is able to safely balance on one leg or because they manage to stress reliably when seated then don’t give it. I cannot remember if there is specific guidance.

    For mobility you only have to have one biological foot to satisfy the A-E criteria so some assessors may think this also applies for dressing.
    You seem to see every amputee the same whereas there are many different levels of amputation.
    You cannot score C for mobility if you have one foot, also I can't score C or D.
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