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Pip's under review again

onebigvoice

I don't normally add posts but this post affects everyone. It is not the full post sent to me but anyone that would like to see the full review that is about to happen in parliament and contact their MP in support of the review and to get PIP's to overhaul the system should read this:

PIP: dogged by controversy

PIP is a benefit for chronically ill, sick and disabled people. It’s supposed to help with the extra costs of living with illnesses or impairments. As the Canary reported in November 2022, Keely Santos set up a petition calling on the government to conduct a “full review” of the PIP application process. It said that the benefit’s:

application and assessment process is inhumane and degrading. We believe Capita and Atos are not fit for purpose to be contracted as independent assessors, and that this leads to many people being unfairly denied benefits.

PIP has been dogged by controversy. From stealth real-terms cuts to huge rates of successful appeals, the benefit is a shambles. Also, between April 2013 and 30 April 2018, around 12 disabled/chronically ill people a day died waiting for the DWP’s decision on their applications.

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DWP: mismanagement

Then there’s the DWP’s assessment process for PIP, which has been unfit for purpose for years. Independent Assessment Services (IAS), formally ATOS, is the company that does PIP health assessments for the DWP. However, this area of the benefit has been a mess, too. Official probes have shown “dishonest” assessment reports and high rates of appeal wins.

Plus, more and more people are complaining to the independent government watchdog about PIP – namely over:

The assessment process.
Assessors’ interpretation of medical evidence.
Payment delays.
DWP “misadvice”.

The DWP’s management of PIP has been such a disaster that it prompted the UN to say PIP had effectively reduced the number of people who should have been entitled to health-related benefits, negatively impacting on people’s living standards.

Related articles

There’s going to be an inquiry into the DWP’s benefit fraud claims – and it’s long overdue

Read on...

A debate that MPs must attend

So, Santos’s petition is asking the government to address all of that.

The petition also noted the high number of claimant appeals over DWP PIP decisions. Figures for July-September 2022 show that 68% of tribunals went in the claimants’ favour. They also reveal that the number of people appealing a decision in the first place went up by 119% year-on-year.

Overall, PIP is a mess. Now, thanks to Santos, parliament will debate the state of the benefit and how the DWP manages it.

The debate will take place on Monday 4 September. The Canary is encouraging everyone affected by PIP, or the DWP, to write to their MP. They should ask them to attend the debate on their behalf. You can do this via email using the Write To Them website here.

Every thing covered over the years, and about time.

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Comments

WhatThe

Hi, the Parliamentary investigation into DWP fraud and ERROR has already begun and the call for evidence is now extended to the 24th August. See my posts earlier today.

Fin1

Hi, can anyone say what the review process highlighted by the Sun newspaper is. I was awarded PIP to November 25th 2025 and finaly felt I could make some kind of plans. Now their saying they are reviewing it. I don’t know how anyone can feel secure when they are changing the goal post all the time.

I have not received a letter yet but I’m expecting it.

Thanks

poppy123456

Fin1 said:

Hi, can anyone say what the review process highlighted by the Sun newspaper is. I was awarded PIP to November 25th 2025 and finaly felt I could make some kind of plans. Now their saying they are reviewing it. I don’t know how anyone can feel secure when they are changing the goal post all the time.

I have not received a letter yet but I’m expecting it.

Thanks

Which reviews are you talking about? Can you post a link to the article?

You also need to be aware that newspapers often print very misleading information and shouldn’t be relied upon.

Fin1

Thank you all for your replies. If you can bare with me I’ll post the link of the paper article.

Fin1

Thank you for the support. I don’t have a link but I searched DWP reviews the Sun newspaper. If you do this search it will be under major changes for PIP by DWP.

also in the search screen you should have a look at the cost of living scam for £750. It's an article by the DWP warning people not to open a text message. I think everybody should read that.

Take care all.

poppy123456

Fin1 said:

Thank you for the support. I don’t have a link but I searched DWP reviews the Sun newspaper. If you do this search it will be under major changes for PIP by DWP.

Is this what you're referring to? https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/23022262/major-change-pip-benefits-review-form/

If so then this is regarding the "light touch" review forms that are coming out in August this year known as AR2. It only concerns those that have 10 year awards with a light touch review. More information here. https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/pip-ar2-light-touch-review-form,-details-and-sample-copy

Fin1

Yes that's the article@poppy 123456. Thanks

chiarieds

Hi @onebigvoice - again I think we will all have difficulty in reading your lengthy posts, but I've tried again. Again I sadly feel you may lead people astray in that PIP assessments are not, & never have been medical assessments. The HCPs do however have an understanding of many disorders as they include nurses, physiotherapists & paramedics. Would you rather just have a competent secretary writing down all a claimant says? There'd not be much point in having assessments if that was all that happened.....

The HCPs where they can, will use their understanding of different disorders to rather assess a person's functional problems.

You say, '

onebigvoice said:

hey do do need to know the skills of the assessor that is the job of the assessmnt company to match you with the assessor, an also to seperate what is medical fact anfd what is their opinion in support of the report they write and if that was not enough they also have to state what is outside their normal remit and express this section as an OPINION.

If a claimant waited to be matched with an assessor that knew everything about their medical condition, they'd be in for a lengthy wait. Even Drs will not necessarily know everything about all disorders; perhaps why we might see one or more specialists with our various medical problems? Do you perhaps think consultants are likely to carry out PIP assessments?

How many times should it be mentioned that PIP is not abour any diagnoses, so assessors do not have to separate medical fact from their opinion.

Adrian_Scope

Note from online community team:

Where possible we like all discussions to continue, but we’re choosing to pause this discussion for now so things can cool down and we can review it. For more information, please read our online community house rules.

We will review it and if we are satisfied the discussion can continue, we will hope to un-pause it by 29th July.

Community_Scope

Note from online community team:

Following review, we have now unpaused this discussion.

Please remember that all discussions on Scope’s online community should remain civil, supportive, and safe.

onebigvoice

I am so sorry, I can't help my self. I understand and will try to stick to basic fact. Thanks all for understanding.

IntneNavy

chiarieds said:

Hi @onebigvoice - again I think we will all have difficulty in reading your lengthy posts, but I've tried again. Again I sadly feel you may lead people astray in that PIP assessments are not, & never have been medical assessments. The HCPs do however have an understanding of many disorders as they include nurses, physiotherapists & paramedics. Would you rather just have a competent secretary writing down all a claimant says? There'd not be much point in having assessments if that was all that happened.....
The HCPs where they can, will use their understanding of different disorders to rather assess a person's functional problems.
You say, '

onebigvoice said:

hey do do need to know the skills of the assessor that is the job of the assessmnt company to match you with the assessor, an also to seperate what is medical fact anfd what is their opinion in support of the report they write and if that was not enough they also have to state what is outside their normal remit and express this section as an OPINION.

If a claimant waited to be matched with an assessor that knew everything about their medical condition, they'd be in for a lengthy wait. Even Drs will not necessarily know everything about all disorders; perhaps why we might see one or more specialists with our various medical problems? Do you perhaps think consultants are likely to carry out PIP assessments?
How many times should it be mentioned that PIP is not abour any diagnoses, so assessors do not have to separate medical fact from their opinion.

Some disability do actually get matched to assessors matched to your disability, mine requires they know the disability and its questions designed around it. That decision came down via a round table from gov.

Jimm_Alumni

@IntneNavy Do you know where I can find information on that? It would be greatly appreciated if that is the case.

onebigvoice

As I have always tried to "go by the rules" I find it very strange that most opinion's are always right and mine are not?
I spend enough time defending other claimants for access to benefits to know not to make a statement without having the facts correct.
The fact that some think I "harp on" about medical qualifications and assessors is because I have never stated that an assessment was a medical examination but the opposite.
Why are you being asked medical questions if its not a medical examination?

You can ask me why things affect me, or even how far I can walk, but when you say unaided then I say well I can do it but from the time I get up and start walking I am in agony and why, why do you then come back with so you can do it then if you had aids? This then becomes his/her opinion and is not medical fact, because my medical facts state that looses balance regularly and over short distances?
You decide, and still say its NOT A MEDICAL EXAMINATION BUT AN INTERVIEW FOR ACCESS TO BENEFITS ONLY.
Please stop saying I said its a MEDICAL EXAMINATION, we all know it is, other wise get them to ASK THE PEOPLE THAT TREAT ME.

poppy123456

onebigvoice said:

As I have always tried to "go by the rules" I find it very strange that most opinion's are always right and mine are not?
I spend enough time defending other claimants for access to benefits to know not to make a statement without having the facts correct.
The fact that some think I "harp on" about medical qualifications and assessors is because I have never stated that an assessment was a medical examination but the opposite.
Why are you being asked medical questions if its not a medical examination?

You can ask me why things affect me, or even how far I can walk, but when you say unaided then I say well I can do it but from the time I get up and start walking I am in agony and why, why do you then come back with so you can do it then if you had aids? This then becomes his/her opinion and is not medical fact, because my medical facts state that looses balance regularly and over short distances?
You decide, and still say its NOT A MEDICAL EXAMINATION BUT AN INTERVIEW FOR ACCESS TO BENEFITS ONLY.
Please stop saying I said its a MEDICAL EXAMINATION, we all know it is, other wise get them to ASK THE PEOPLE THAT TREAT ME.

That's because your opinion isn't correct. As has been said many times to you accross many different threads that it's not a medical assessment. It's a functional assessment that assesses a persons ability to complete the activities related to the PIP descriptors.

You are not being asked medical questions, you're being asked how your conditions affect you and that's completely different.

chiarieds

Sorry, but keeping on repeating the same thing doesn't then make your assumption correct. Perhaps you can provide a link showing that PIP assessments are a medical examination, & not an assessment of the claimant's function? You said above that you were going to try & stick to basic fact; please do.

onebigvoice

chiarieds said:

Sorry, but keeping on repeating the same thing doesn't then make your assumption correct. Perhaps you can provide a link showing that PIP assessments are a medical examination, & not an assessment of the claimant's function? You said above that you were going to try & stick to basic fact; please do.

If the person doing the assessment is not qualified, can you tell me how they assess you if they have no idea as to the treatment being given, whether its a "quick fix" and can assess to say review in 3 months as conditions can change? How does that assess whether you can walk 1 meter or 500 meters unaided?
Function: walking, I state I cannot walk 1 meter as on rising I am in agony, reason I have just come out of an operation, Operation Bi-Lateral knee replacements: Both knees operated on,condition will change with time, result neither operation went well causing further complications even with treatment and issuing Tramadol at 10 daily? for pain, plus a cocktail of tablets to eleviate other conditions caused.
Diagnosis: does suffer some discomfort when walking but this is managed with treatment.
What is your prognosis/assessment? 7 months in bed, 4 months on crutches, 2 years on crutches including "flare ups" that caused bed bound for weeks.
Capita assessment: Zero can manage with aids and tablets.
Court Assessment from Court appointed Doctor: Examination completed 29 points+ but for admin purposes 29 point never to be assessed again.
DWP assessment: Reassessed with in 5 months due to Capita report, seen Court Tribunal report, Decision Maker: I have seen the evidence presented and have decided to pay middle rate Care component and no Mobility. Car removed.
I ask you again to tell me even on this one point why would you need a Medical Assessment again since all information sent in including permission to contact all who treat me, were never contacted by the DWP?
Do you value their opinion?
All need to look at the legislation again and what is needed to give a "Examination" or assessment for benefits and what is required of the ASSESSOR. CHECK THE WHITE PAPER PRODUCED TWICE LAST YEAR AND THE CHANGES TO THE ASSESSMENT PROCESS FROM LAST YEAR, then look at the same process they are changing RIGHT NOW by altering the descriptors used to assess you and increasing the chance of a zero assessment, by making it harder to qualify.
Maybe you can explain the assessment process that the assessors have to give and whether that assessment can be used since they only give an opinion to the decision maker who has hired the assessor for a report he could use? he could have given an opinion the same as the assessor.
If you refuse to have an assessment completed by you what happens? Can you pay for your own assessment?

Jimm_Alumni

I understand the frustration these situations can cause, but a general reminder to all: please try and stay civil as per our rules.

PIP and WCA assessments, while carried out by people with medical backgrounds, are not a medical examinsation. They are an assessment of your capabilities, much like an Occupation Health Assessment for workplace adjustments.

It does sound like you had a terrible experience Onebigvoice, with the DWP. I know a little of the frustration, having been denied help after an assessment myself.

poppy123456

onebigvoice said:

chiarieds said:

Sorry, but keeping on repeating the same thing doesn't then make your assumption correct. Perhaps you can provide a link showing that PIP assessments are a medical examination, & not an assessment of the claimant's function? You said above that you were going to try & stick to basic fact; please do.

I ask you again to tell me even on this one point why would you need a Medical Assessment again since all information sent in including permission to contact all who treat me, were never contacted by the DWP?

Why do you keep on insisting on referring to it as a "medical assessment" it's not a medical, never has been and never will be.

It's not DWPs responsibility to contact anyone for any information and they very rarely do this. It's the clamants responsibility to prove they quailify, not DWP.

onebigvoice said:

chiarieds said:

Sorry, but keeping on repeating the same thing doesn't then make your assumption correct. Perhaps you can provide a link showing that PIP assessments are a medical examination, & not an assessment of the claimant's function? You said above that you were going to try & stick to basic fact; please do.

If you refuse to have an assessment completed by you what happens? Can you pay for your own assessment?

No, absolutely not, you can't pay for your own assessment.

Please be careful with the information you're giving because it's very misleading. In the rules of the forum it clearly asks you not to give misleading information, yet you persistently do this. You can see the houserules here. https://www.scope.org.uk/community-house-rules/

chiarieds

I think we've been through all of this before.....the person doing the assessment is qualified; they're either nurses, physiotherapists or paramedics. They are not of course a Dr, which is another reason why these are not medical examinations, as only a Dr is qualified to do medical examinations.

I presume you also felt the same in that your knee replacements will help, otherwise why put yourself through these ops. Therefore it makes sense to logically assume your walking ability will improve over the coming months. I also presume that when in hospital you were cared for by nurses, & likely had physio to get you up & walking & trying to bend your knees. Why you should therefore think that nurses & physios no nothing about such commonplace ops is therefore beyond me. That's not to say I'm sorry for what you're going through due to complications.

I thought you would know by now that these unfortunate 'cut & paste' responses frequent assessor's reports, &, as far as PIP goes it seems rare for your GP/consultant to be contacted, especially as you say you help claimants with their benefits.

You can see an explanation of the criteria for PIP assessments here: //www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria