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Second Mandatory Reconsideration

Rosiesmum

I am appointee for my disabled son and my story is so very similar to @wildlife's and the fact that you have posted so much information has been of enormous help to me and my son.

Son had lifetime high rate both award on DLA went down to zero points on pip,but using the info posted and my own research I have been able to ask for a second reconsideration.

DWP failed to follow so many procedures as did the HCP it could have led to a serious,if not fatal outcome at his medical.

DWP failed to ask if I wanted dla records ported for pip claim,this in turn led to a mess up with ATOS and my son being asked to perform tasks he shouldn't have been due to his disabilities.

Atos had to resubmit a PA6 which partially corrected first assessor to get him standard care,but failed to address so many other wrong facts (I have medical evidence to back these statements up) looked up assessor not qualified in the area of my sons disabilities.MR was made within a day of PA6 arriving at DWP and without me seeing it first,so I complained..again!

I have put in a complaint to ATOS and DWP and explained my reasons and that I would use these on my submission for appeal.

They are now considering my sons award again with all the evidence (I hope) that they have been given over the past 15 years,up to the present day.

If he still does not get his award back I will appeal but I hope that given the circumstances and the fact they promised to try to rectify their mistakes I have placed my trust in them to at least give him a fair hearing,after all that's all anyone wants isn't it?

I will let you know the outcome of the MR and also my ATOS complaint.

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Comments

steve51

Hi @Rosiesmum

A very big welcome It’s great to meet you this evening.

I’m so sorry to hear about your current situation.

Please please let me know if I can help/support you in anyway???

Many thanks.

wildlife

@Rosiesmum I to am sorry but only that you have had such a battle to get to where you are now. So glad I was able to help and from all you have done and are doing I can only say well done for fighting this gross injustice. How on earth could an ATOS assessor have given your son 0 points from a lifetime high rate DLA award. This is so obviously someone who doesn't have any morals or even care at all for anyone only getting another tick in the rejection of PIP statistics and Brownie points for themselves. This is disgusting to say the least. Letting DWP know that you're not going to let this happen is so important and despite what some advisers on here will tell you it does make all the difference. It needn't be a rare occurrence for the MR to change things if done in the right way. Good luck to you, I will be following your son's case so do let us know what happens.

Rosiesmum

Hi Steve thanks very much for the lovely welcome.The forum members here have already helped me so much by sharing their stories I had loads of tips which were relevant to my son's case.

I am post surgery myself so have nothing better to do than read up on case law etc that's how I found you here.

I hope to stick around after this is all sorted as I have seen many parents with kids on the spectrum (my youngest is classed as moderate autism and all the bits that come with it!) He is 19 now I don't remember much else other than fighting for my kids to get the help they needed but want to let other parents know it DOES get better.

You eventually get them the support they need,sadly usually after hitting rock bottom like we did but the system is getting better for kids on the spectrum so keep going!

My middle one is the one with aortic dissection,collagen disorder and lots more besides sadly,he's the one we're currently fighting for..

I wasn't destined for a quiet life!

wildlife

@Rosiesmum So stress could be quite devastating?

Rosiesmum

Hi @wildlife yep he's a bit like a ticking bomb sadly,he's been through so much in his life already (he's only 22) but refuses to sit at home and wait for something else to break as he puts it so after 18months of job seeking,6 weeks after his latest heart surgery, he found the perfect match,Dad changed his hours to use his car to get him to work,after the risk assessment etc and his employers are amazing.

They placed him next to med bay and disabled loo,in a ground floor office with disabled parking literally 20 feet away.

Made adjustments from his medical assessment to his chair,desk etc and he's doing really well there.He says it keeps him sane as he is very bright,but his positive attitude bit him on the bum this time sadly!

Hopefully my years of hoarding his paperwork will show how badly his whole system is affected but who knows..

Thankyou so much for posting about your awful experience it must have been extremely hard for you with all that going on but I learned so much through reading your story and used your experience to help with the ATOS complaint and the request for the second reconsideration.

No news is hopefully good news as they say but our only worry going to appeal is I can't leave house at the moment,Son who's claim it is can't do stairs and other son needs a carer if I'm missing so it'll have to be done on paper.Hence the need for a cast iron case!

wildlife

@Rosiesmum, Yes we do have a lot in common as I learnt to fight for my 2 adopted sons both with disabilities. That was back in the day when their disabilities weren't recognized and schools were only interested in getting high exam results and as many children into uni. as possible. My eldest didn't even take any GCSE's as he was playing up and was almost expelled at the time. He is now a high flyer in the company who make the amazing doors and roof designs for railway stations and the rich and famous around the world. He is very clever but was written off at school. My youngest who has LD and mental health problems is on ESA and PIP but got it in 2011 when they actually listened to me and allowed me to send evidence of his past behaviour including photos of smashed windows and injuries caused to himself and others. Your son should be respected for what he has achieved and supported in employment not penalized for working. There is so much wrong with the present system I can't begin to say what I would do to change it but no changes will go far enough and if scrapped they wouldn't replace it with anything that goes far enough in sorting out what is wrong. But let's hope they at least try asap.

Rosiesmum

@wildlife oh yes I agree with you at least there is some support around today compared with even ten years ago.There was nothing when your boys were growing up sadly.At least this has changed for the better.

My older cousin suffered with polio and was left very disabled by it,my dad took over his care when my uncle passed away suddenly due to the same condition my son has.He was a smashing bloke but the fight my dad had to get him help was awful.Eventually he got a little blue car (early mobility) and supported housing and lived well supported surrounded by friends with similar needs til his untimely death.

Glad to hear your sons are doing well but I know the stress you have been through to get them there!

My autistic son has had no issues with either PIP or Universal Credit they have been marvellous!

I think that's why I do live in hope that they will allow my son's claim.I have faith that they will sort it out eventually but felt I had to make a stand for all the other people who have had the same happen to them and may not have such a support network as my son has.

I don't have a problem with providing proof,or them having assessments but the procedure should be followed properly their end as well as ours.What is the point of having submitted over 15 years worth of medical proof from specialists (my son had to be referred as he was too complex to be treated locally) if they are to be overruled by a speech therapist???Especially when she has never met him and is going from remarks in the original assessment.

My son is fortunate to have his mental faculties so if he only qualifies for standard care due to this that's fine,but his mobility car is crucial to being able to work as stated to the DWP it's called Personal Independence Payment for a reason!

steve51

Hi @Rosiesmum

That’s my pleasure.

Please let us know if we can help you again ????

Rosiesmum

Thanks @steve51 I'll let you know when we hear something I'm at least hoping I get a phonecall from them before they make the next decision!

Rosiesmum

I've just had a phonecall from ATOS to discuss my son's case.He was very nice and just listened as I tried to explain my issues with the assessment procedure not being followed etc.

I managed to throw in the bit from their DWP contract about causing harm and give him his dues he listened to everything I pointed out about what had gone wrong.

Turns out my suspicions were correct the HCP was literally only given his PIP form..no medical evidence not even the stuff I sent in duplicate just in case they didn't read the DLA file.

This goes a long way to explaining why she did what she did and wrote what she wrote.

I also had a chance to include my issue with having the speech therapist refer to the first report as she was not sufficiently qualified in my son's area.

So all in all a constructive morning.I pointed out the fact that we need to get the system right,that there are many people who are having the same proplems but who cannot complain and that we,who can ,need to speak for them too to hold people to account.

I don't think I'll hear anything further til after Christmas,he's writing up the report and sending it on to his manager so I'm not sure what happens after that??

My plea was for a fair and honest hearing for my son so hoping he may finally get one.If they uphold the complaint what happens next ?

Would he have to have another assessment or do you think they would do a paper one now they have found all his evidence?

CockneyRebel

Hi
Sounds like a positive morning. They can only do a paper assessment if they have enough evidence to do so and hopfully they do. They should now look at all the evidence, it will still have to be refered to the AP as DM's have no medical knowledge.
At the moment you have done all you can, try and forget about it and enjoy the festive season

CR

Rosiesmum

More news! *Deep breath*

DWP have already made second decision using (I presume) the now proved as useless first and second reports...

Still standard care and no mobility award.

However I can't speak to anyone at the DWP until I have the new award letter in hand (hubby is a postie in our office so I'll know when it gets there!)

I also need to read the reasons given to see if they have used the ATOS reports or not before I proceed.

I'm sure I read on the ATOS contract with DWP that reports deemed as not fit for purpose CANNOT be used in evidence,I'll have a dig around.

Note was however put on my son's file at 11am this morning (after I spoke to ATOS man) there are currently emails flying back and forth from the DWP complaints team to the ATOS complaints team,probably trying to find out what the hell is going on.

Lady told me to get the ball rolling for the appeal as I can withdraw it if needed as she said it is now looking like they will have to do it all again and do a supercession quoting change of evidence or advice,that's if they have indeed used the faulty reports.

I can't for the life of me see how otherwise they drew the conclusion they did?

Son has every medical document needed to prove he fits the descriptors otherwise I would not be persuing this.

As far as I am concerned I have a valid complaint that procedures were not followed and it should be upheld I'm wondering if they are trying to decide between themselves who carries the can for it.

Will update when I get the letter/phonecall.

sleepy1

Hi, Rosiesmum
I spoke to someone at PIP this morning about my MR, mainly because a couple of weeks ago when I asked for a reconsideration over the telephone (even tho I did not ask) was told that the decision makers do not call you back or send any decision letters out anymore like they used to, so I would need to call back in around 2 weeks to find out the decision. I asked if I would need to put my request in writing and she said no as she had already logged everything on her computer.

I thought it was a bit odd and it prayed on my mind so even tho I was not in a good way I managed to send a letter to confirm what I said in the telcon with more evidence attached.

Hence after 2 weeks I eventually got to speak to someone today (note tel numbers have all been changed) explained why I was calling and was basically told there is no time scale/limit on a MR decision it could be weeks or months, normally it would take 6-8 weeks but they have a back log and are working through it on a date order criteria. I asked about delays over the Xmas hols, she said they would be back at work on Thursday and Friday after the bank holiday but didn't expect to get much done as they would have to get back into the swing of things!!

She also said that a decision maker can call you and a decision letter will always be sent out in the post and whoever I spoke to previously was wrong.

I am past trusting anything either DWP or the HCP assessors say now. Nice as pie on the phone and to your face.......Then stab you in the back with their lies in order to reach their targets and receive their bonus.

Rosiesmum

Hi @sleepy1 I'm so sorry to hear you are going through the mill too.

I found out they made the second decision last week sometime and posted me a letter last Friday.

My son's original application went in September if that's of any help to you with timescales?

Home visit was 23rd October and first decision was made 8th Nov

Second was made on the 15th Dec just looked it up from my notes.

No phone call from decision maker....again whilst making their decision.

Rosiesmum

Sorry above post was wrong I wrote it in a rush lol..

Second decision was made on the 4th dec

Third decision was made 15th Dec.

Just had a call from DWP they say they have no complaint to answer to my issue is with ATOS..

No MR notice in the post today so getting the appeal form filled in now but will wait until it arrives in case there is something on there I need to include.

At least I can get it sent off and try to forget about it for now as @CockneyRebel said,it really does start to take over your life !

I am filling out the appeal form stating my reasons starting with procedural errors first,do I need to include ALL the relevant issues at this stage (don't want to send in piles if not needed) or is it just a brief outline of why I do not agree?

Do I need to include descriptors and medical reports to prove issues?

Thanks again for all your help peeps it's keeping me going!!

wildlife

@Rosiesmum I'm pretty sure it's just a brief outline at this stage for Appeal so it's logged on the system within the timescale. Then you send all the detailed stuff in at a later stage. They send you copies of all the evidence before appeal so I presume you can use those instead of getting more copies done. I didn't go to appeal but I read other posts when advice is given. It looks like the 3rd decision was made without the evidence but I hope there's still chance of the correct award being given before Appeal which takes so long there's plenty of time to keep on at DWP unless they give up and say Appeal is your only option. It is a good idea to have a break over Christmas and you will be refreshed to carry on the fight in the new year. ATOS seem to be taking more notice of bad reports. When I complained they just denied everything. Have a good Christmas and keep us up to date when any developments happen..

Rosiesmum

Thanks @wildlife just felt so deflated after her call..

I was told by the DWP they messed up then this call she said nope they never send anything to ATOS only the PIP2 so they have done nothing wrong so I don't know what to believe!

I wrote everything in his form so I guess my only recourse now is if ATOS do indeed uphold my complaint but now I'm feeling like they are just going to come out with the old 'our HCP are all trained in functional assessments' line...

Waiting for a callback from my case worker at ATOS regarding the two HCP qualifications as I want to include these in my sons appeal and I need verification they are the right people.

I shall still continue with the NMC complaint in the new year too as the Nurse I spoke to actually told me to persue it and it might save someone else from going through this.

We see the specialist in April next along with his scan and MRI on the heart and aorta so will have new medical evidence to send in and possibly a change to report if they start him on the beta blockers or he needs another surgery.

Not sure how that will affect things if he's appealing.Probably trigger another assessment knowing our luck but look on the bright side I might get a chiropodist next time ha ha. *Still smiling* xx

Matilda

@Rosiesmum

Disability Rights (DR) site has a guide to PIP appeals. And they publish a benefits Handbook, price £15 from DR site.

wildlife

@Rosiesmum That bit about not sending evidence to ATOS is rubbish. Even if it's true in your son's case it says quite clearly in the DWP guidelines for assessors which is on the Gov.uk site that assessors are supposed to read and use all the available evidence when doing the assessment and for the report. The outcome of my ATOS complaint took 5 months so wasn't done in time to affect my claim which I accepted at 2nd MR stage. DWP rang me out of the blue to offer me higher mobility. That was using evidence they'd had from the beginning. My complaint was rejected and is now with ICE. I can't remember what I've already told you.
I couldn't get any information out of ATOS about my assessor's qualifications but that was whether or not she had any at all as I suspect she did not. ICE will be investigating that next year. You have the right to know your son's assessor's profession and their registration number if they're registered with their appropriate professional body but you can check that yourself if you know their name and haven't already done so.

Rosiesmum

Thanks @Matilda I will get one of those much appreciated.

@wildlife I have had a result with the NMC asked them to confirm assessors qualifications.

Turns out the first one who did the home visit is on the register but has 5 names so it was hard to track her down.

She is registered under Mental health...

So at least I know now so I can proceed when I eventually have the copies of the second MR.

Thanks again all for your help it's much appreciated XX

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