PIP, DLA and AA
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Pip letter and assessment letter

adammh00adammh00 Member Posts: 3 Listener
i got a letter to say I was refused pip. I phoned and asked for a mandatory reconsideration form. I’ve just received my assessment letter and it says to review me in 18 months like I’ve got it. Don’t understand it. Has dwp said no. I can’t phone until Tuesday just seeing if anyone else has had this 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The assessment report recommending to review you in 18 months is the HCPs way of saying that your conditions are not likely to change in this time, so if you start a new claim then you're likely to be refused again.

    In that report pay particular attention to the dots next to the activities/descriptors and check them against the PIP descriptors to see what score was recommended. You'll very likely see that you didn't score enough to have any award because the decision maker usually goes with the report.

    As you've had a decision letter saying you've been refused then the next step is indeed the MR. You can write the MR letter of request or download it from online, rather than wait to receive it from DWP.

    Make sure you put where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    Avoid mentioning any lies or contradictions in the report because DWP or the Tribunal won't be interested in any of those. They will only want to know the reasons why you qualify.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • adammh00adammh00 Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Thank you. Just before I received the refusal I found out I need surgery. Do you think that could change the decision 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It's unlikely because PIP is about how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. Usually people have surgery to improve their conditions.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    Hi @poppy123456

    In regards to the above post about reassessment in 18 months time, how much weight would a doctor's expertise have in their decision as to when or if reassessment is necessary? 

    I recently submitted to the PIP my mandatory appeal with a detailed letter from my doctor stating how my disability affects me, and in the report my doctor says I am a safety risk to myself and others and that the condition is untreatable and incurable. She informed them of other examples such as if in the general population I would be taken advantage of (and that I have had done) and various other risks. 

    it was a pretty good letter (from my perspective) because it rules out the possibility of looking for work. 

    Everything she put in the report almost ticked all the criteria for the PIP assessment. 

    However, would ESA work capability assessment take into account what the PIP assessors have done - i.e. rejected my claim - or will they look at the application and see that I pretty much fail most assessment criteria. 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade Reviews are reviews and we are all re-assessed at these times. Most people have face to face assessments too because it's rare to have a paper based assessment.

    GP letters aren't the best evidence to send because they very rarely know how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors. If they do know then it's because it's mostly patient lead, which means the patient has told them how they're affected. Or in some cases, even told their GP what to write and yes, i've actually heard stories of this happening.

    I'm not sure why your GP sent a letter ruling out the possibility of looking for work for a PIP claim because PIP has nothing at all to do with your fitness to work. It's about how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. People claim PIP and work. I'm afraid that won't help.

    ESA and PIP are different benefits with different criteria so it will depend on the reasons why you're claiming PIP and where you scored those points.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    poppy what is leading you to assume that GP's "very rarely" know and if they know its patient led? have you carried out some kind of research into GPs or something or just assuming?  Those are some very bold claims, indicating you think GPs are dishonest people.

    Given GPs are the main people dealing with day to day needs of patients, I would say they are probably the most likely to know how patients capabilities might be affected, the only people I would put above this is perhaps carers and OT's.

    The question is just me trying to understand if its unpublished DWP policy to think GPs dont know what they doing and are prone to been dishonest, or if there has been some kind of study into GPs, or if its just your opinion, thanks.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It's common knowledge that a GP very rarely knows how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors. They will only ever know the basics like, what medication you take, a diagnosis, what appointments you've attended in the past etc. If they know anything more then it will be because their patient has told them, which is why a letter from a GP isn't the best evidence to send.

    @ilovecats @cristobal will both agree with me here, i'm sure.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @worried33 - I tend to agree with Poppy, but you are correct to point out that it's just opinion...

    What I'm going on is the fact that GPs, as far as I know, are trained to diagnose and treat conditions not on their functional effect (which is a different specialism.) Their contract doesn't include benefit-claim work.

    Personally I can't think of a time when my GP has ever commented on how my condition affected me - possibly when he/she has written a sick note for work?

    I asked my GP and was told that if I tell her what she wanted me to write she would if she had time.


  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    edited August 2019
    But then what is the point of the assessment if they are making a decision in which they don't WANT you to have any money to save the DWP money?

    If what is written above is correct, then it doesn't matter what any expert writes because it is the assessor who just turns around and says 'nope, I will be rejecting this person's claim just because I can'. I have submitted evidence from at least three psychiatrists and 2 psychologists, and for what? Nothing. For example, the doctor could write medical expertise letter prior to the PIP or ESA assessment, which you submit in with the application, and then you turn up and meet the criteria and then they just decide that actually they don't want you to have PIP just to reduce the cost to the DWP. 

    I can understand why so many claims are rejected - because it isn't based on any medical expertise but the opinion of an unqualified assessor who's sole purpose is to reject an application for PIP or ESA. That is why the success rate at tribunal is so high - because the Judges base their decisions on medical evidence, not the opinion of someone unqualified. How would a judge feel if their opinion was also overruled about the law? Its the same principle. 

    And what does the CAB do any different anyway? Just a re-wording in a more legal way about how your disability affects you, based on the reports you have submitted. Again from doctors. 




  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @sceneparade - as I suggested aboveI think a lot depends on what the 'medical evidence' says.

    I don't think that anyone doubts the skill and expertise that GPs but when they are writing up their notes etc they are concentrating on diagnosis and treatment. In your case it sounds like you doctor has examined you specifically to evidence the PIP descriptors which I imagine is really valuable evidence if he/she has done this for all of them.

    I was fortunate to be examined by an OH consultant prior to being medically retired from my job. He was not concerned about diagnosis at all - but spent over an hour examining me, watching me carrying out basic tasks etc. His report was really valuable and, since he is a specialist in this field, effectively beyond dispute...

    I wonder if the best advice might be simply to read through what you GP writes, if they are prepared to write a report for you, and see whether it just repeats what you have just told them? 
    Alternatively you could see an OH consultant privately...


  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @cristobal

    My evidence states I was a safety risk to myself and others, that I have and would be taken advantage of if allowed out by myself. That I need constant supervision when taking medication for safety reasons. That I cut my thumb off when attempting to cook food by myself (I showed the assessor evidence of it) because of my inability to cook food, and because I often wonder away and leave the gas on which has burnt pots and nearly caused fires. It mentioned extreme anxiety and an inability to communicate with others. There was a lot the report said that would easily pass the criteria. Based on the safety reasons alone I would have scored very highly. 

    Not everyone has the opportunity or financial resources to pay for an occupational therapist. At the end of the day, most people are rejected because it is bias. Take the example of someone with schizophrenia who is in the middle of psychosis. They could be feeling persecuted and being very aggressive because of it, and clearly in no position to work. Yet the assessor would say 'well he can walk, he can read and he is able to communicate with me, so I shall reject him'. Then they apply for a job and the employer would say you aren't fit to work, so we can't offer you a job (which I have actually heard to be true). Where is the fairness in that?

    If I go to the CAB, how would they help? What do they do that would argue my case successfully? 



  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    If I go to the CAB, how would they help? What do they do that would argue my case successfully? 

    @sceneparade - I wouldn't advise going to the CAB. My personal opinion is that the don't do anything that you can't do yourself.

    If your GP has examined you and found that you are not safe to cook, are unable to communicate with others and need help with medication etc and has reported this then you will obviously score points for them. Personally if this is what your doctor has written then I can't see how anyone can disagree. An obvious question which might be asked is that if you GP is reporting that you are unsafe then what is he/she suggesting is done about this? Do they suggest any aids/ adaptations etc as you might be able to use this as well??

    Hopefully everything will be sorted out at the MR

    Good luck anyway

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It doesn't cost anything to have an needs assessment done by an occupational therapist, this is free from the NHS.

    This thread is about PIP and PIP isn't about not being able to work, that's what ESA is about and you're confusing the two.

    Why would you be taken advantage of if you went out alone? What happened the last time you went out alone? This is what you need to tell them and give real life examples.  Just telling them that you would be taken advantage of isn't enough.

    The same for needing constant supervision when taking medication. Why do you need this, what happened the last time you didn't have supervision?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • kami24kami24 Member Posts: 402 Pioneering
    If you have a great GP who knows you very well then it might help but they are very brief in my experience and simply send the medical report and records already done and some are lazy or overworked so don't have time. My GP is awful i moved so have a new surgery and its worse old one much better they vary alot
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected

    @cristobal - my doctor said in the report that it was a neurological condition (ASD) and it was an inability to socially communicate with others, and that because I don't understand social skills or nuances. She said it is untreatable and incurable and would require lifetime treatment. She added that she has known me since I was 11, so about 25 years. 

    @poppy123456 - The doctor stated I am a risk to myself. She gave an example where I was on on my iPad game when out with relatives, and whilst they were paying bills in the post office someone asked if they could have a go and that because I can't read or understand others they took it and fled with the iPad and hence was taken advantage of. She did give other good examples too. My doctor also described a few times where I over medicated and had to be taken to hospital, hence I need supervision at all times. She also said that because of the nature of the condition, I find it hard to regulate emotions and sometimes can get angry and lash out impulsively, which finds relationships difficult. It is all part of the ASD. 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @sceneparade - your GP seems to have spent some time helping you with this and it's really good that they have been so accommodating.

    Can I point out a couple of things which I think might help?

    When your doctor says that you are a risk to yourself is he/she linking this with 'Engaging with people face to face' as this refers to behaviour which would result in 'substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person'?

    If so I personally don't think that the iPad example is a good one as there is no 'harm'..

    Also your GP say that you 'sometimes lash out' - this doesn't sound like it happens for the majority of the time - has she/he specified anywhere how frequent this actually is?

    Good luck - I hope that you find this helpful 

  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @cristobal - Sorry, I should have elaborated. 

    In her report she said I was a risk to both myself and others. For example, the nature of the condition is that because you can't reason emotionally, you lash out aggressively to people you feel are frustrating you, or you then hurt yourself by banging your head against the wall, or picking cuts or scrapes, or self harm through medication and blades. There was also evidence of being referred to a psychiatric hospital as a result of self harm. This was caused by relating to others. 

    In regards to the iPad incident. She said that it led to an emotional breakdown and depression that lasted weeks and affected my ability to do anything, including self-harm. There is documented reports from psychiatrists of 'lashing out' which states it has alienated others and that relationships are extremely difficult. She stated that - collectively - there is. no cure for it, which infers a-lot of the time. 

    And thanks, I have found everyones advice very insightful and helpful. I realise that there is enough evidence to not be as concerned about an appeal or going to the tribunal, as I feel a. bit more confident.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade - I'm glad you found it helpful...

    Your GP sounds to have been very thorough - hopefully you should get a better result at MR, or tribunal ...
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @ilovecats

    But if you self-harm around others, or act out aggressively - as demonstrated by commitment to a psychiatric unit - how can they expect you to still work, albeit with support. The nature of ASD is that they will not tolerate people unfamiliar to them. They will react strongly against anyone they do not trust. My nephew is the same. He would have a serious breakdown if his mum wasn't with him 24/7. He is her life-support. In addition, if they believe I need support at work, that would cost the employer a lot of money in funding a support worker to work alongside me, which they would never entertain. Furthermore, employing a support worker to prevent myself from being vulnerable wouldn't help with anxiety in relating to others in general. Even without being taken advantage of, I have evidence backed by the doctor that states relationships in themselves lead to anxiety, depression and even stated this had led to psychosis-NOS on a number of cases. 

    Does anyone know the difference(s) between the support group and the work-related group? For example, constant face-to-face meetings at the job centre, training courses, weekly payments received etc. 
  • kami24kami24 Member Posts: 402 Pioneering
    Work related one is where you have to go and see the work coach every 2 weeks (ridiculous!) i hope i am not put into that group because I have bpd and autism so I don't like travelling on my own on buses especially and to see strangers who judge you. I am currently waiting for them to tell me which group they have put me in as i was on jobseekers previous to this and i am staying on esa she said but its up to the dwp or something what group they put you in so tense about that now. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats

    But if you self-harm around others, or act out aggressively - as demonstrated by commitment to a psychiatric unit - how can they expect you to still work, albeit with support. The nature of ASD is that they will not tolerate people unfamiliar to them. They will react strongly against anyone they do not trust. My nephew is the same. He would have a serious breakdown if his mum wasn't with him 24/7. He is her life-support. In addition, if they believe I need support at work, that would cost the employer a lot of money in funding a support worker to work alongside me, which they would never entertain. Furthermore, employing a support worker to prevent myself from being vulnerable wouldn't help with anxiety in relating to others in general. Even without being taken advantage of, I have evidence backed by the doctor that states relationships in themselves lead to anxiety, depression and even stated this had led to psychosis-NOS on a number of cases. 

    Does anyone know the difference(s) between the support group and the work-related group? For example, constant face-to-face meetings at the job centre, training courses, weekly payments received etc. 
    You are talking about ESA but this thread is about PIP and they are 2 totally different benefits with different criteria.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade are you being assessed for ESA or PIP? To answer your question in the WRAG you will be expected to attend appointments but won't be expected to look for work but prepare to return to work sometime in the future. If your claim for ESA started after April 2017 then you won't receive any extra money in this group. If your claim started before this date then it's approximately £102 per week, which could possibly increase with premiums depending on circumstances.

    Support Group, you won't be expected to attend any appointments ad they basically leave you alone in this group. Support Group Income Related receives £128.45 per week, this can be increased by another £65.85 per week if you're entitled to severe disability premium.

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @poppy123456

    I am currently on contribution-related ESA. So how does this effect me financially? I have looked into it and it states that you should get the following:

    Disability premium: £34.35 per week
    Severe disability premium: £65.85 per week 
    Enhanced disability premium: £16.80 per week

    Would these be paid in addition to the £111.65 per week in the support group? 

    It states this: "If you don’t have enough National Insurance contributions and you don’t have enough money to live on,* you might qualify for income-related ESA.

    You might be entitled to contribution based ESA and an additional amount of income-related ESA, but this will depend on your circumstances."

    But I am confused as to what it means. 

    @kami24 - Have you attended an work capability assessment? If so, what happened? What did they ask? Did you get approved for ESA? 
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
     I fail to see how it can be common knowledge.  People only have each other's experience's to tell each other.  My GP certainly knows a lot more than just what medication I am on. GP's also get access to all notes provided by any hospital visits, they are basically a centralised part of your medical service.

    Of course in situations where you perhaps see a different GP every time you go to surgery or you dont see GP very often, or have a new GP, then obviously yes then the GP wont know much.  So my context was assuming you have had a GP thats been dealing with you for a long time.

    "If they know anything more then it will be because their patient has told them".  Of course any medical professional will need to work on what the patient is telling them, if you only finding things out solely on scans and blood tests then you are operating in a very limited scope.  I just find this attitude bizarre.

    In terms of functional affect, my GP was able to provide information as notes are on my file left from my occupational therapist which was detailed by my GP on the form supplied to the DWP.  Also the GP likely has experience accrued over the years from their collection of patients in terms of how they get affected by various conditions and symptoms.

    Some GPs are very good and thorough, but I accept the quality of any assistance will be highly variable, health service in itself is a lottery.  I dont agree with a generic advice tho telling people to not bother.

    Also in my case my GP provided documented evidence to back up various things I told the assessor myself, e.g. I said I have needed assistance in integrating with society, which was a very short and vague statement, on the form from the GP, she detailed exactly what assistance I had, the professionals I seen, length of treatment, result, diagnosis etc.  None of that would have been there without my GP.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    ilovecats said:
    I agree. It’s rare a GP Provides an insightful letter. Normally isn’t just a rehashing of what the claimant says they cannot do or a list of conditions. 

    Often the assessment provider sends the GP a report to fill out. Many don’t even send them back and of the ones that do, I’d say 90% are not filled out with any medical opinion, just a list of meds symptoms. 
    Well you have worked as an assessor so in your case I can understand how you can come to such an opinion, but I was curious how poppy did given she is only a claimant.

    I can accept that many GPs perhaps just either cant be bothered, or simply havent got the information to offer an informed opinion, but I dont think it would be the case for every single GP, thats all.

    What I can tell you my form filled in by my GP had more information and effort put into it than the one one from the HCP that assessed me, was a "lot" more than list of meds and symptoms.

    However one would think even a list of symptoms would be evidence, what happens if the patient tells you that they have symptoms but you dont see them on the day? do you accept their word or would something like a GP confirming those symptoms hold some weight, curious on that one.

    For reference 6 of my 8 points according to my HCP on daily needs were awarded based on my GP supporting evidence, whats your thoughts on that one?

    Specific wording was "verified by GP supplied by OT".
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @worried33 as i've said many times before, one of the things on the "i don't want to see list" is letters from a GP. Also my knowledge on the PIP descriptors tells me that a GP will know very little about how your conditions affect you against the descriptors. I've said all i'm going to say on this now and won't comment any further.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    I am sad you dont want to explain your opinion poppy, sadly that means I cannot take it seriously, which I hope you understand.   (only on this one issue not anything else).

    You are very knowledgeable on the descriptors themselves which I accept, but I dont understand how you can decide how a GP would know how their own patient would be affected, when the GP not only has history with the patient but also access to all reports from medical professionals the patient has seen.  The GP is certainly better placed than a HCP who sees the claimant just once for a brief assessment, however I do accept the point made by cristobal that GP's are not trained to specifically look at benefit descriptors but instead they there to help people get better and manage conditions.  My next question to you would have been if the GP doesnt know, then who does know? but you dont want to say anything else so I will respect that.

    But maybe cristobal or ilovecats can offer an answer to that question should they choose to.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade it will depends if you're receiving new style ESA or the old contributions based ESA.

    If it's the old Contributions based ESA then it will depend on circumstances....living with partner that works, savings, capital and other income from pensions etc.

    Disability premium isn't paid on ESA, it's only paid when claiming either Income Related JSA or Income support.

    Enhanced disability premium is automatically paid when claiming Income Related ESA in the Support Group.

    Severe disability premium is paid if you live alone, or classed as living alone and no one claims carers allowance for looking after you. You must also be claiming a qualifying benefit such as DLA mid/high rate care or PIP daily living.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    edited August 2019
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?

    It seems the 'New Style' ESA and the Contribution-Based ESA are the same. 

    "To get ‘new style’ ESA you’ll need to have been an employee or self-employed and paid National Insurance contributions, usually in the last 2 to 3 years. National Insurance credits can also count.

    "You’ll also need to have an illness or disability that affects your ability to work.

    You can only apply for contribution-based ESA if you have an illness or disability that affects your ability to work, and you either:

    • get the severe disability premium, or are entitled to it
    • got or were entitled to the severe disability premium within the last month and are still eligible for it

    You’ll also need to have been an employee or self-employed and paid National Insurance contributions, usually in the last 2 to 3 years. National Insurance credits can also count."


  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    kami24 said:
    If you have a great GP who knows you very well then it might help but they are very brief in my experience and simply send the medical report and records already done and some are lazy or overworked so don't have time. My GP is awful i moved so have a new surgery and its worse old one much better they vary alot
    I agree, depends on the GP really, I mean if you know your GP is going to be no help then maybe not even worth bothering.  But if you have had your GP for a while and they have a good understanding of your history, then I would say its worth a shot.  If they provide nothing useful, you no worse of than if you didnt ask.

    I dont know about you but, for me when I am filling in forms, and am in an assessment it is inevitable I will miss stuff or even misquote stuff e.g. since my assessment I know I forgot to mention multiple diagnosis, and to me it seems inevitable most claimants will miss perhaps important parts of their symptoms, diagnosis etc., to support their descriptor choice.

    Also a now good friend of mine works with a lot of people who go to him for help, he represents many people at tribunals, and has a lot of experience, he doesnt work for anyone like cab or welfare rights but attends mental health meeting awareness groups, and thats how people get his contact details.  His opinion has always been if you have a supporting GP it doesnt hurt to ask and given his huge experience and the notes on my report from my HCP I will go with that.

    Also I forgot who mentioned it, but I didnt pay for my OT, I got my OT via a referral from my GP and I think the OT was funded by the council.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?
    I dont think poppy mentioned this.

    But you can be on contribution based "and" get a income related topup.

    Basically normally historically what happens is if you qualify for "both" income related and contribution based, you would be given contribution based benefit.  However you can if you pass the means testing, get a income related top up qualification, if you manage to get this, then for the purpose of SDP/EDP, you will be treated as if on income based ESA.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?
    As i said Contributions based ESA and New style ESA are different when it comes to receiving any income related top ups.

    Contributions based benefits can be paid regardless of savings/capital and income but Income related top ups are means tested.

    It sounds like you're confused between New style ESA and contributions based ESA and until you know which one you're receiving it's impossible to give any advice. My advice is to speak to a local advice agency near you, this way you can take all of your paper work to them for them to see and they will tell you which one you're claiming. They will also advise you whether you're entitled to any income related top up.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    Okay, thanks. So I would be receiving the same as claimants on income-related ESA, just that it would fall under contribution-based ESA?
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    Yes you need to fill in an ESA3 form.

    Basically savings below 16k (under 6k for full entitlement) and practically zero income other than your benefits.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    @worried33 there you go, i did advise this..
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade when did you start your claim for ESA?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    @worried33 there you go, i did advise this..
    Right ok, then he/she can forget what I said then.  Missed that part. Sceneparade am sorry for getting your hopes up wrongly.

    did sceneparade actually say they on the new style ESA?

    The reason I want to verify this is this was quoted.

    "You might be entitled to contribution based ESA and an additional amount of income-related ESA, but this will depend on your circumstances."

    That doesnt sound like something they would put in a letter if there was no IR topups available.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    No they didn't say which one they are claiming but they are very similar benefits but the only difference between the 2 is that Income related top ups are available with the one but not the other. You'll be amazed at the people that don't know which one they are claiming simply because they are both contributions based.

    What was quoted in a comment above is what's advised on the internet...
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    Yeah so if it is an older claim then my advice might be valid, but obviously as you said if its a new style claim then I am wrong.  I can understand people getting confused.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @poppy123456

    I started my ESA claim in May, but I have paid five years contribution of NI. So I am in the contribution-based ESA. Hopefully that means I still can claim the income-related top-ups too. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    I started my ESA claim in May, but I have paid five years contribution of NI. So I am in the contribution-based ESA. Hopefully that means I still can claim the income-related top-ups too. 
    Ah yes, thanks for that. This tells me that you're definitely claiming New style ESA because the old Contributions based ESA stopped for new claims in December 2018.

    As you're claiming New style ESA then no premiums are available.

    Depending on circumstances you maybe able to claim Universal Credit for the extra money that's paid with limited capability for work related activity (LCWRA) otherwise known as the support group. This pays more on UC then it does with New style ESA but your New style ESA will be deducted from your UC payments. If you live with a partner that works or have savings/capital then this will affect the amount you can claim.

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    edited August 2019
    @poppy123456

    At the moment I get only contribution-based ESA at £73 per week, and universal credit of about £367 per week, which covers the rent. I get no other income from universal credit other than housing benefit. 

    Would I still get additional payment as you stated above (LCWRA)? I am not receiving any additional money from UC in regards to any disability

    And how can I be receiving 'new style' ESA if I have worked for 5 years? It states under 'new style' ESA that you have to be paying NI for at least 2 years (which I have paid for 5), but doesn't take into account PIP and, therefore, the SDP.

    Why is it called a contribution-based ESA if you have been paying into the NI for at least two years but can't claim? Why pay into the NI if you didn't receive anything for it? It might as well just say ESA
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    This link explains both Contributions based ESA and New style ESA as you can see it's only possible to claim the old contributions based ESA if you were claiming Severe disability premium. which you weren't.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    The good news is that if you do qualify for the UC LCWRA, it is actually more than old style ESA SG + EDP.  Its only less if you also would have got SDP.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @poppy123456

    So the point of the new benefits is to reduce people's money, not replace it? Effectively, the government could, next week, remove the income-related JSA, contribution based ESA and new style' ESA and replace with x benefit with a benefit rate of just £40 per week (in principle). It isn't about helping people but about removing costs to the government. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    worried33 said:
    The good news is that if you do qualify for the UC LCWRA, it is actually more than old style ESA SG + EDP.  Its only less if you also would have got SDP.
    That's not relevant anymore because those claiming SDP are unable to claim UC and this has been the legislation since 16th January 2019.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    If I was claiming Higher rate care component DLA and Lower rate DLA mobility component for the last 11 years, would I, theoretically (based on DLA which entitles DP and EDP if unemployed), be able to claim the DP and SDP based on being eligible for it under the terms of DLA (if that makes sense)?
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    Not everyone is worse off under UC, as I said those without SDP get more under UC.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    worried33 said:
    The good news is that if you do qualify for the UC LCWRA, it is actually more than old style ESA SG + EDP.  Its only less if you also would have got SDP.
    That's not relevant anymore because those claiming SDP are unable to claim UC and this has been the legislation since 16th January 2019.


    They cannot migrate but I am answering his point that he would be worse off, he doesnt have an active PIP claim yet so wouldnt get SDP anyway.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    So the point of the new benefits is to reduce people's money, not replace it? Effectively, the government could, next week, remove the income-related JSA, contribution based ESA and new style' ESA and replace with x benefit with a benefit rate of just £40 per week (in principle). It isn't about helping people but about removing costs to the government. 
    No. New style ESA and contributions based ESA were both the same and they were not means tested benefits. The income related top up that is available to those claiming the old contributions based ESA is means tested in the same way UC is means tested.

    Claiming the Income related top up would have depended on circumstances and not everyone will have qualified. Same as UC.

    In some cases like this, UC can be more generous, especially if you live with a partner that works and you're claiming LCWRA because not only will you receive the extra element, you'll also have a work allowance so your partner will be able to earn a certain amount of money before deductions take place. How much your work allowance will be will depend whether you claim the housing element or not. If you don't claim the housing element then your work allowance is £503 per month before deductions start.

    This means that some people will be better off claiming UC than they were claiming the old benefits. Of course not everyone will be better off.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    I just ran a calculation check for someone with full eligibility for IR topup on old ESA but no eligibility for SDP.

    £128.45 ESA + EDP
    £150.93 (approx) UC LCWRA (was a monthly figure so I had to translate into weekly).
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    When I calculated it, I worked it out at around £200 per week based on the old contribution-based ESA, plus DP, SDP and EDP. So its less. 




  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    Its less if you would get SDP yes.  Also I am not sure if you can get both DP and SDP together at same time.

    Right now you dont get PIP, I believe you have no eligibility for SDP even if you was on the old style ESA.  Many people are the same, most IR ESA SG claimants do not qualify for SDP and as such would gain under UC.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    So, if I was put in the Support part of 'new style' ESA, and managed to get my PIP back to higher rate care component (as most tribunals are successful), what would my estimate be from both the extra UC and in total? 
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    I thought you said you just put in a MR?  

    UC would be exactly the same, it would only be different if you was an old style claimant and moved over via managed migration at which point you would get extra for transitional protection.

    Its not as bad as you think tho since UC pays about £22 a week more than ESA + EDP.  So you would be losing about 2/3 of SDP and none of the EDP, instead of all of EDP and all of SDP as you originally thought compared to an old ESA claimant.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    Yes, I have put in for a MR, but I don't hold out much hope as most are unsuccessful. My doctor has written a really good letter stating how disability affects me (preparing for food, communicating, eating etc) where I believe I would score at least the higher component of the care allowance. But, even so, I am not hopeful because its a case of them wanting to decline your application to reduce costs to the government. I am still waiting for a decision on my MR but my hope is on the tribunal, which will be in many months I would imagine.

    Doesn't the UC include LWRA? What if I was put into the LWRA (support group ESA equivalent). Doesn't that include support for people with disabilities? If not, my point has been proven that for anyone claiming a new benefit has been vindicated, as they would have reduced new claimants any extra income, irrespective of claiming PIP. It would be a cost cutting benefit.  
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    I dont know what else I can say to you, and poppy has indicated she agrees with me as well, it doesnt cut benefits for "anyone".  Some people yes, but not everyone.  Also its a reduction in entitlement to "some" new claimants rather than a cut to existing ones.  Existing claimants with SDP will eventually be migrated over via managed migration and their SDP amounts will be protected via a transitional payment.

    UC includes LCWRA topup providing the DM decides you qualify for that level of support.  LCWRA is the SG equivalent.  LCW is for WRAG.

    For claimants that dont even claim PIP and are entitled to LCWRA support, it is more generous than IR ESA.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @worried33

    "For claimants that dont even claim PIP and are entitled to LCWRA support, it is more generous than IR ESA" 

    Does this mean it would be more if PIP was reinstated? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @worried33

    "For claimants that dont even claim PIP and are entitled to LCWRA support, it is more generous than IR ESA" 

    Does this mean it would be more if PIP was reinstated? 
    No, if you were awarded PIP the UC doesn't increase with a PIP award.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    People think that UC LCWRA pays less than ESA Support Group (income related) no it doesn't, if you weren't claiming the SDP. The reason why they think it pays less is because UC pays monthly were as ESA is a weekly benefit paid fortnightly and when worked out correctly as pointed out by @worried33 above, it pays more.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @poppy123456

    Okay, thanks for the knowledge. It has been insightful and helpful.
  • kami24kami24 Member Posts: 402 Pioneering
    Wow read all those above comments and that is really confusing. I was sure UC was less than esa regardless. Also I was on sdp on JSA so I was eligible to claim ESA thankfully but if you arent on SDP within JSA then it is unlikely you will be able to claim ESA unless you are in an area with the old system. Will my ESA remain the same as it was if I am not placed into the support group?? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    kami24 said:
    Wow read all those above comments and that is really confusing. I was sure UC was less than esa regardless. Also I was on sdp on JSA so I was eligible to claim ESA thankfully but if you arent on SDP within JSA then it is unlikely you will be able to claim ESA unless you are in an area with the old system. Will my ESA remain the same as it was if I am not placed into the support group?? 
    Yes, you're ESA will remain the same if you're placed into the WRAG. It will stop completely if you're found fit for work and it will increase from the 14th week of your claim if placed into the Support Group. Support Group will pay an extra £55.35 per week, with the SDP included it will give you a total amount of £194.30 per week.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • sceneparadesceneparade Member Posts: 81 Connected
    @poppy123456

    £194 per week is a lot of money compared to UC. Its about £40 per week more, at least. 

    So for new UCWRLA, it is, in fact, less than old system benefits for disabled people 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    £194 per week is a lot of money compared to UC. Its about £40 per week more, at least. 

    So for new UCWRLA, it is, in fact, less than old system benefits for disabled people 
    That because SDP is included in that calculation i made. Those claiming SDP now are unable to claim UC.

    As you were never claiming SDP then for you if you're entitled to UC then claiming this, if placed into the Support Group will pay you more than claiming just New style ESA alone. 
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Do be aware though that New style ESA is only paid for 365 days unless placed into the Support Group and then it's paid for as long as you remain in that group.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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