Do you think I would win?

josh72ebp

So I have social problems I haven't been out socially in about 9 years I have anger problems and try my best to control it. I end up talking to much due to stress and worry. I also have aspergus and according to my records autism. I have high anxiety low depression and a mental health nurse. The police and social work says I am a vulnerable adult.

Pip says I am fine gave me a 0 all the way and I said to them I disagree. It's now going to tribunal and I am wondering if anyone knows what I can do to show how my mental state and school had affected me and my life.
I had DLA for life just before they forced me to go to pip if that's any help.

OverlyAnxious

Hi Josh,

The DLA award isn't really any help as PIP are looking at different criteria.  Have you looked at the PIP descriptors to see which ones apply to you?  It sounds like you should at least score points for question 9, mixing with people.

Were you able to supply any evidence from the mental health nurse or the social worker about your daily needs?  If not, that could be helpful.  You could also a friend or relative to write a supporting letter if there are any that know you well enough?

josh72ebp

I had family send a letter in  and in the items they give I know of the following.
Preparing food
 I can do but as somehow I get forgetfull I use a microwave for ready made meals. 

Managing your treatments
There is none it's a for life disability.

Communicating
I can do it but I sometimes end up saying offensive or hurtfull things and I don't take any social information and get carried away in talking.

Mixing with other people
I haven't been out in 9 years.

Making budgeting decisions.
I have direct debits and they go in same week as I am paid so I leave a big chuck of my money for that week so they get paid.

Planning and following a journey.
I don't go out and I find it scary to a extent interacting with people. I also can not stay at other places as I can't sleep.
Would that be enough information or would I need more? I think I can get family to help with proving it.  But if it requires friends I cant as I got none 

OverlyAnxious

Ok, well I'm not an assessor so can only give a rough idea but your points aren't very strong and don't seem to be backed up by any evidence.

I think we can remove 'managing treatments' and 'budgeting' as it doesn't sound like you'll score any points for those.  If you can leave a chunk of money to cover the direct debits, that's good budgeting!

Communicating - It doesn't really include accidentally offending people (if it did, I'd score full points haha!), so I don't think you'll score points there either.

Preparing food - I think you may struggle to score any points here.  At best you could score 2 points for using the microwave rather than the oven but you would need to prove why that's necessary, just being a bit forgetful doesn't really count.

Mixing with other people - You should almost certainly get the full 8 points here.  But you will need to explain why you find it difficult and what actually happens.  Give a good solid example of what happened the last time you tried to mix with people, or what happens now if you were to try and mix with people.  Is there a strong chance of you harming yourself or someone else out of anger for example?  

Planning and following a journey doesn't include meeting other people, that's already covered above.  Do you go out alone at all?  Can you walk to the shops or the post office for example?  Can you go out if someone else goes with you?  Can you use Google Maps to find a route to the shops?  Those questions are more relevant for that section.

If family can help with proof that's great, it doesn't need to be friends, just the more evidence you can get, the better really.  If you can get any from the social worker or mental health team as well that would also help.  In my opinion it does sound like you should at least be awarded standard daily living, but you will need to strengthen those points a bit and back them up with good evidence and examples!  

I must stress I'm not the most knowledgeable person on here, so others may be able to offer better advice, but I have just won my tribunal based on similar conditions. 

josh72ebp

Thanks for the input honestly in terms of hurting myself or others I am prone to hitting if I get to stressed or banging my head agents things. I used to have holes on my door and also my bed is partly broken. In terms of others I try my best not to hit them as I know if I get in a fight there is the possibility that they might end up in a coma or worse dead if i hit them properly  it is kinda scary so I try to just hit other things or myself 

josh72ebp

Once again thanks for the input and help I will try to get more information from my doctor and mental health nurse

Fetlock

Managing treatments is out, because you don't take medication and you can't get points when you don't take any. You could get points potentially if you have difficulty realising when you need to see a GP, or that you are deterioratig etc, but not for medication.

Preparing Food - Could you prepare a simple meal from scratch using fresh ingredients? ie fry a piece of chicken, open a tin of sweetcorn and peel and boil a potato? If not, why not? Could you be shown how to do a simple meal such as that and then remember the next time how to do it again? Have you ever left boiling pans on and wandered off, forgetting them? Give examples if you can on exactly what stops you using a cooker hob and why you need to use a microwave instead. Have you injured yourself before, caused a fire? Anything like that. Depending on how your condition affects you, you could be looking at assistance/supervision instead. (1e)

Communicating - for the purposes of PIP this is set at a very basic level. If you can understand "I want a cup of tea with milk, no sugar but sweetener instead" and culd be understod if you said that to someone else you can communicate.

Mixing - when you need to see your GP how do you manage with appointments? Why do police and social workers say you are vulnerable/  (we DON'T need examples here, but something for you to think about as examples given for your PIP application would strengthen your case potentially. Mixing isn't about going out, it's about mixing with others on a 121 basis on in small groups of 2 or 3 people.

9b or 9c may possibly apply. 9b for prompting.  9c if you need more than prompting, for example if you struggle to read body language or facial expressions etc

Budgeting - much more information needed, to tell them why you need help managing/making decisions abbout money.

Planning and Following/Going Out - you say you havent been out for 9 years - is that at all? Or do you have any examples where you've perhaps tried. If so, explain in your application what happened, when it was, what help you needed etc. And if you "did" go out, where could you go? ie could you walk along your street, walk to the nearest shop, go to a supermarket or your GPs, to see a family member? Could you use public transport (buses, trains, taxis) - if not , why not. Are you affected in a sensory sense - by noise, for example? 

Fetlock

josh72ebp said:

Once again thanks for the input and help I will try to get more information from my doctor and mental health nurse

Unless your GP knows you well, anything they provide may not be of much use, as they won't know how your condition afftects you.

A report from your mental health nurse however, is likely to be very useful.

woodbine

Hi @josh72ebp welcome to scope, nothing to add to the good advice above, but good luck with your appeal.

mikehughescq

I’ll be honest and say that as someone described as a vulnerable adult I’m not sure a forum of non-experts is the best place to get advice on your likely entitlement. You need expert advice and a number of things said above are at best misleading. 

1 - your DLA award is absolutely relevant. The length of the the DLA award is relevant  and there is clear overlap between a number of descriptors and the DLA rules. The upper tribunal have ruled on this several times and are very clear on the point.

2 - with the best will in the world no-one can tell you whether you will get an award until they’ve spoken to you in depth and been able to assess your evidence. This is not the place to do that.

3 - contrary to the assertions above activity 3 is not just about meds. It’s also about therapy and that can include all manner of things such as listening therapies to manage anger etc. 

"manage therapy" means undertake therapy, where a failure to do so is likely to result in a deterioration in [the claimant's] health” - that’s a quote from the PIP guidance.

If other people have specific ways to manage your anger and aggression for example that may well come into play. 

4 - engagement is not about going out or mixing. That is completely wrong. Here is the wording for activity 9

” 9. Engaging with other people face to face.

a. Can engage with other people unaided.  0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people.  2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people.  4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either – 
(i) overwhelming
psychological distress to the claimant; or 
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points.”

You’ll see there is no mention of going out or mixing. 9 is about forming relationships. So being able to talk to someone on a shop is neither here nor there. Your inability to read situations or react inappropriately will be very relevant here rather than on communication. 

5 - budgeting is about a lot more than paying by direct debit so I certainly wouldn’t rule it out at this stage. 

6 - plenty to look at on planning and following a journey but not enough info to form a view. 

Go get advice. Start with https://advicelocal.uk/

josh72ebp

@mikehughescq thanks for the information and the link.
 In terms of DLA I had it since I was 16 till start of this year so almost 10 years. I just got it permanently last year to.
Also in terms of talking with others I am great on a computer but face to face I got no idea what to do other than react to what people say. My convo starters are "hey how are you" and that's it. And I get scared when talking to people. I don't know it as showing emotions is difficult. Like very difficult.
(Example is my uncle died last week I used to play football with him and he come to our house often. But when I heard I knew I should be sad but I couldn't feel it or even cry)

These are examples of me in some cases. Honestly I am worse than you think with the info I provided on here but hey ho. 

Again thanks for the information I will get as much of the medical things I have documented and brought with me. I will also look at the link you provided. At least tomorrow that is (12:32am) 

mikehughescq

In terms of PIP you need to use the extra info section to explain about your DLA award length and to specifically ask for a 10 year award length. Explained properly you will clearly score points for social engagement but focus on examples like the ones you give above as well as medical evidence. The examples are hugely important.

You may also find https://pipinfo.net/ helpful as well as https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system. Both will help with a mandatory reconsideration. Use the official form to challenge the decision. You can find it at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683380/if-you-disagree-with-a-decision-made-by-dwp.PDF

Mostly though go get advice from a professional adviser. Advice from other people who have claimed PIP can be hugely valuable but not when it’s misleading or plain wrong. People often believe their own claims are successful for reasons which are wholly incorrect but use that to advise others and it tends to end messily. 

Fetlock

mikehughescq said:

I’ll be honest and say that as someone described as a vulnerable adult I’m not sure a forum of non-experts is the best place to get advice on your likely entitlement. You need expert advice and a number of things said above are at best misleading. 

1 - your DLA award is absolutely relevant. The length of the the DLA award is relevant  and there is clear overlap between a number of descriptors and the DLA rules. The upper tribunal have ruled on this several times and are very clear on the point.

2 - with the best will in the world no-one can tell you whether you will get an award until they’ve spoken to you in depth and been able to assess your evidence. This is not the place to do that.

3 - contrary to the assertions above activity 3 is not just about meds. It’s also about therapy and that can include all manner of things such as listening therapies to manage anger etc. 

"manage therapy" means undertake therapy, where a failure to do so is likely to result in a deterioration in [the claimant's] health” - that’s a quote from the PIP guidance.

If other people have specific ways to manage your anger and aggression for example that may well come into play. 

4 - engagement is not about going out or mixing. That is completely wrong. Here is the wording for activity 9

” 9. Engaging with other people face to face.

a. Can engage with other people unaided.  0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people.  2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people.  4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either – 
(i) overwhelming
psychological distress to the claimant; or 
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points.”

You’ll see there is no mention of going out or mixing. 9 is about forming relationships. So being able to talk to someone on a shop is neither here nor there. Your inability to read situations or react inappropriately will be very relevant here rather than on communication. 

5 - budgeting is about a lot more than paying by direct debit so I certainly wouldn’t rule it out at this stage. 

6 - plenty to look at on planning and following a journey but not enough info to form a view. 

Go get advice. Start with https://advicelocal.uk/

Splitting hairs re engaging. Q11 on the PIP2 questionnaire is headed mixing with other people, is it not?

mikehughescq

Fetlock said:

Splitting hairs re engaging. Q11 on the PIP2 questionnaire is headed mixing with other people, is it not?

Not splitting hairs at all. That’s exactly what it says. 

It’s a lovely illustration of how the relationship between the form and the law is not clear cut and how DWP mislead. The activity is about social engagement. The law says that; the HCP guidance says that; the decision makers guidance says that; the case law says explicitly and repeatedly it’s about forming non-casual relationships and yet the question on the form says “mixing”, as though being able to say hello to your HCP or the girl on the till in Asda is enough. 

Having been part of the many working groups which looked at the design of the form and accompanying letters I am aware that the intent of DWP was to make it simpler to understand. Unfortunately, just like the accompanying notes, they end up confusing and misleading people. Where that ends is that in a thread like this you have people with no ill intent whatsoever advising on what they believe is “mixing with other people” and things end up going from bad to worse. 

There are other examples where the PIP 2 bears no resemblance to the law just like the HCP guidance doesn’t. 

It’s why I constantly recommend ignoring most things DWP say about what the law is as they are the last organisation to trust when it comes to interpretation. 

I should also add that someone appears to have flagged your post. I want to emphasise that it wasn’t me and I’ve no idea why someone would wish to do so.