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Correction. Or 2nd stage appeal?

clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous

The FtT decision was to increase and backdate the DLA of Pip.  They have,,on the whole agreed my GPS scoring however, they have not agreed with her scoring on managing therapy (e - 6 points) and have scored c - 2 points)

They have not included any information on their decision on activity 9 which my gp scored as b - 2 points but in discussion at the appeal might well be  d I

There decision regarding mobility does not include their scoring for 1 which my gp scored as d - 10 points and they have not scored as my Gp for 2 c - 8 points, they have scored b - 4 points. 

I am unclear if I am now to ask for a correction  or an appeal to the higher tribunsl given the scoring for 9 and 2 being missing from their decision and also that they have not agreed the scoring for DL 3 or M 2

Their letter states the decision was made on medical evidence presented. 

Any advice would be appreciated. 

Read more at https://community.scope.org.uk/discussion/36882/pip-appeal-decision-query-on-correction-or-appeal-to-upper-tribunal#spBXu2CPdeJVkgTl.99


  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi clarabelle and welcome

    You can only apply to the UTT on an error of law.
    Can you clarify what award the tribunal made ?

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous

    Thanks for the reply? 

    Upper rate living allowance ( so raised from lower rate)

    No mobility.

    I've just read the procedure guidance and it says the hmcts can choose to alter my request to any of the 3:  corrections, setting aside or appeal to UT.

    I'm thinking if I word it correctly I can suggest it's a corrections issue given that areas are missing and points different from GPS scoring - they have stated ' on reaching decision the tribunal placed particular reliance on medical evidence"

    If I add that should they feel it's not a corrections issue I would like them to consider a setting aside & remaking? 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    I think you might have to wait for one of the advisors to come, this requires trained advice.
    Sorry I can't be of more help

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous
    Thanks CR

    Yes, I think it will need to be worded carefully.  What I'm learning is I need to tread carefully rather than attack them for what are quite obvious 'errors' used to delay and confuse.

    Aren't they suppose to be separate and distinct from the dwp?

    I have to say I'd hope for better treatment/greater integrity   at the tribunal than I'd received from the dwp. Sadly not so

    The doctor present started with 'on a really good day, on a perfectly smooth surface, how far could you walk?'

    His further questions were equally irrelevant, ' if the taxi driver went over Hammersmith bridge would you know if he was going the right way?' - this in relation to a mobility descriptor of needing a dog/person/aid in making journeys. 

    The disability advisor when asking questions about using a bath stated ' well some people get in and out on all fours' 

    I was seriously tempted to respond at one point ' would you like me to smash every disc in your cervical spine and tear the ligaments from your elbows so you have a very clear idea of the impact'

    Instead I referred them to the medical evidence in front of them.

    Hopefully an adviser will get back to me early next week.  
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger

    The tribunal hearing is supposed to be inquisitorial.  I wish that more people realised this beforehand and then they wouldn't get so stressed about the panel's questioning or take the panel's approach personally - they are just doing their job.

    I hope you do find an error of law - it's unusual but not unknown.
  • clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous
    The panels job is to establish the facts usig the criteria and the evidence before them.  ' on a good day on a completely flat smooth surface' is not the criteria and there is plenty of case law that clarifies this point.  As is there on the distinction of regular,  repeatedly and reliably.

    The written reasonimg and decision  of the panel''s conclusions deliberately fails to include activities under dispute and discussed at length, for which medical evidence was provided and discussed. 

     Whether that's an 'error of law'  or a 'slip of the pen' is something I need to clarify, hence my post.

    Your comments are neither helpful or useful - and in fact misleading. The upper tribunals regularly overturn the FTT decisions on errors of law. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2017
    Maybe decisions are regularly overturned at upper tier tribunals - when cases get that far, but very few do get to upper tribunals because rarely do first tier judges make errors of law.    Therefore, you have given gratuitous offence by saying that my comments are neither helpful or useful because what I said was correct - first tier judges rarely make errors of law.  I said nothing about decisions that upper tier judges make.

    You are unlikely to get expert advice about your very technical question in this category - you would need to ask in Ask a benefits advisor category.

    I found my PIP tribunal panel impartial, though inquisitorial as they are supposed to be, and they gave me a grilling.  However, at the end of it all they increased my standard PIP both components to enhanced both components.

  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    I am not very bright and this does seem rather technical, but I think I understand your reasoning that not all activities/descriptors have been address in the panels decision

    I am watching this with interest as any knowledge that we can add is a good thing

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous

    Your personal experience is subjective and I'm not really interested in sweeping statements about utt overturning ftt judgements. 

    However,  thank you for directing me to the benefit advisees thread. I have posted my question there snd hopefully if will be picked up tomorrow.

    @CockneyRebel, you can follow it there to see if in any light is shed. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger

    You were the one who first made a sweeping statement about utt frequently overturning ftt judgements (if you'd like to check through your posts)!  And I then pointed out that I had said nothing up to then about utt judgements - but I then agreed with you that maybe utt's do overturn ftt judgments quite often, as you seemed sure about that.

    Of course, your personal experience is also subjective.

    Anyway, evidently you are feeling very emotional about your tribunal experience.  

    I hope a benefits advisor can be of help to you.

  • clarabelleclarabelle Member Posts: 71 Courageous

    I'm not particular emotional about my tribunal experience.  Nor do I have interest in continuing a pointless conversation with you.

    I posted o here requesting clarification on a technical issue. That is what I will continue to focus on. 

    I would prefer if you didn't comment on my posts  anymore, you seem to both looking for attention and argumentative,  neither if which I am interested in.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger

    I'm afraid pots and kettles spring to mind.  You could not stop me from  commenting on your posts.  Threads are public but I have no wish to comment further on your posts.  Your posts speak for themselves and anyone reading them can decide for themselves.
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