How do we get heard?

onebigvoice · November 2021

I have been fighting DWP for correct benefit entitlements for many years, yet one or two things remain constant.
1. in winning a case the assessor or the Decision Maker never get taken to task and if in most cases that I win its about the content of the Assessment.
If you win a case in a Tribunal where the report cannot or is not used because of the number of errors it contains and is thrown out and a paper exercise is done based on the medical evidence given by you, why before the new certificate of entitlement is issued, are you not contacted by the Tribunal to state this and only receive a letter stating from them to say that a revised decision in favour of the appellant has been made and therefore this case is now closed?
The assessor is allowed to continue assessing even though the report is of a poor standard and does not follow the rules of report writing or its eventual use.
I have received in the last year, where my date for back payments have changed 5 times, 5 different certificates of entitlement, and because the offer has been revised, irrespective of amount, I can't question or receive an explanation of the reason?
A letter again outlining my case from the DWP complaints resolution team back to September 2020 where now states that we made you a more favourable offer then and 5 times since when asking for the reason for the new certificate issue. I know why? since I asked the same question every time.
The judge at the April 2021 Tribunal asked these questions of the Secretary of State to explain and there reply was zero, they did not reply within the 10 days given, or the 21 days given as an extension. They sent a letter today stating again at that time a more favourable offer was made to the court, ( Which I did not get or receive from them) So in order to pursue the claim further I need to approach ICE.
This was done in 2014, 2016, and again in 2019, all the report stated the same thing, there were serious Typos and Grammatical errors on the case, yet they would not write to the DWP they sent the letter to me to say if I wanted to pursue this case further to contact them direct?

END: In order to get anything changed you can't since the Tribunal will not enforce any ruling that they make.
The altering of documents on behalf of the DWP and the Secretary of State remain unaltered even when proven to be incorrect or forged on their side.
The assessor will continue to give unsupported reports to the DWP/SS and the Decision Maker will continue to use them even when proven to be incorrect.
If you get back pay, its only what is owed to you, and at a rate that they decide to give to you, and at a start date and finish date that they decide.
Some one I spoke to on Friday Last week, has a phone assessment tomorrow (Friday) and is not taking the call because he is not willing to go through any more stress, and is ringing them to close his claim down and not claim anything? Just been diagnosed with COPD, I say just it was 1 1/2 years ago and now has become worse that he is rarely seen out of bed, because of his other problems including Walking and Depression to name others diagnosed.
Who do you complain to when inviting MP's, the First Minister, after a marvellous speech about how thing are getting better, yet we all remain with no doctors appointments, no dental care treatment, no hospital appointments all on the back burner?

onebigvoice · November 2021

I have looked at the topic heading and would like to comment to those here:
I had the Zoom meeting on Friday 19th with an MP and AM in Cardiff, which was very beneficial to me/us all.
I was allowed to put a case as to the number of things " wrong with the system of assessment" and allowed to pose questions about what actually is or is not a legal document when talking about assessments and the processes involved, and the Tribunal System and what that entails.
This meant looking at the Charters set out by Parliament, for all of the above.
With the permission of the last 6 cases that I have looked at, and asked them to look at the documentation given by the Secretary of State as evidence in each case to remove benefits before I gave them the recent results of those cases and the time to resolve each case.
The bottom line is that they will be in London on Tuesday and have been allowed to make up a list of questions that will be presented to the chief Whip at Question time there.
I know that the main questions I want to ask are about procedural changes to the law.
There is also the question of what is a legal document and why when medical information is sent in with the From and information gathering that the DWP and PIP's have, why the assessment companies do not follow the same rules.
In writing a program in power point I would like to invite any one here who want their complaints about how the assessment system has removed, changed or just caused so much stress in form filling that you feel like giving up and except offers made over the phone prior to a Tribunal or zoom/telephone assessment? In other words they offer you standard rate and because they have paid you nothing for months the back pay amounts to Thousands of Pounds and seems like a good deal at the time.
If you do send in any thing you do not have to use your real names although this would be only for me to start up a file, and allow me to contact you to ask only about your issues to collate them into a history of complaints against the assessment system.
So along the Lines of Name: OBV.
When did you apply: PIP's 2 1st Jan 2015.
When did you have a change in benefits or a letter saying at this time we cannot pay you, from Date to Date
Did you reapply? Yes/No.
What was the date and result, Same non-Payment. lower rate after months of nothing.
Are you in receipt of benefits now? Yes/NO
Did you send in medical evidence and an up to date prescription list.
Can you give a brief description of your illnesses, including treatment now or pending.

I already have changed their outlook at this being an isolated incident or case since I have supplied verbally at the meeting case after case of maladministration.
The money you get in back payment is money that is owed to you, so getting you to except these " eleventh hour " calls with out a hard copy is just cutting their losses and your entitlements.
Here is one question: It is a sackable offence to be on site with the NHS without you badge or picture ID on display, so why when being assessed at a face to face interview do they not wear ID's or when challenged have to go look for them?
One rule for one, or are they hiding behind the data protection act? There Charter states they must wear them at all times, so how many have had F2F interviews and seen ID?
The bill on Tuesday in parliament is as before allowing Private companies to be on the board to discuss contracts and who gets what?
The NHS is a public concern and should stay that way.
My fixation is with the law side of our assessment, so when I go to a Health Care Assessment Centre I expect the people that work there are qualified to do so. This rebranding has come about recently since it has nothing to do with care.

onebigvoice · February 2022

I have been fighting DWP for correct benefit entitlements for many years, yet one or two things remain constant.
1. in winning a case the assessor or the Decision Maker never get taken to task and if in most cases that I win its about the content of the Assessment.
If you win a case in a Tribunal where the report cannot or is not used because of the number of errors it contains and is thrown out and a paper exercise is done based on the medical evidence given by you, why before the new certificate of entitlement is issued, are you not contacted by the Tribunal to state this and only receive a letter stating from them to say that a revised decision in favour of the appellant has been made and therefore this case is now closed?
The assessor is allowed to continue assessing even though the report is of a poor standard and does not follow the rules of report writing or its eventual use.
I have received in the last year, where my date for back payments have changed 5 times, 5 different certificates of entitlement, and because the offer has been revised, irrespective of amount, I can't question or receive an explanation of the reason?
A letter again outlining my case from the DWP complaints resolution team back to September 2020 where now states that we made you a more favourable offer then and 5 times since when asking for the reason for the new certificate issue. I know why? since I asked the same question every time.
The judge at the April 2021 Tribunal asked these questions of the Secretary of State to explain and there reply was zero, they did not reply within the 10 days given, or the 21 days given as an extension. They sent a letter today stating again at that time a more favourable offer was made to the court, ( Which I did not get or receive from them) So in order to pursue the claim further I need to approach ICE.
This was done in 2014, 2016, and again in 2019, all the report stated the same thing, there were serious Typos and Grammatical errors on the case, yet they would not write to the DWP they sent the letter to me to say if I wanted to pursue this case further to contact them direct?

END: In order to get anything changed you can't since the Tribunal will not enforce any ruling that they make.
The altering of documents on behalf of the DWP and the Secretary of State remain unaltered even when proven to be incorrect or forged on their side.
The assessor will continue to give unsupported reports to the DWP/SS and the Decision Maker will continue to use them even when proven to be incorrect.
If you get back pay, its only what is owed to you, and at a rate that they decide to give to you, and at a start date and finish date that they decide.
Some one I spoke to on Friday Last week, has a phone assessment tomorrow (Friday) and is not taking the call because he is not willing to go through any more stress, and is ringing them to close his claim down and not claim anything? Just been diagnosed with COPD, I say just it was 1 1/2 years ago and now has become worse that he is rarely seen out of bed, because of his other problems including Walking and Depression to name others diagnosed.
Who do you complain to when inviting MP's, the First Minister, after a marvellous speech about how thing are getting better, yet we all remain with no doctors appointments, no dental care treatment, no hospital appointments all on the back burner?

poppy123456 · February 2022

I don't understand the reason why you posted an exact copy of a previous thread posted in Nov 2021, with exactly the same title and questions.

You can see that thread here with all the answers. https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/85813/how-do-we-get-heard#latest

I see no need to answer any further questions because we are just continuing to go round in circles.

onebigvoice · February 2022

poppy123456 said:

I don't understand the reason why you posted an exact copy of a previous thread posted in Nov 2021, with exactly the same title and questions.
You can see that thread here with all the answers. https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/85813/how-do-we-get-heard#latest
I see no need to answer any further questions because we are just continuing to go round in circles.

I have looked at the topic heading and would like to comment to those here:
I had the Zoom meeting on Friday 19th with an MP and AM in Cardiff, which was very beneficial to me/us all.
I was allowed to put a case as to the number of things " wrong with the system of assessment" and allowed to pose questions about what actually is or is not a legal document when talking about assessments and the processes involved, and the Tribunal System and what that entails.
This meant looking at the Charters set out by Parliament, for all of the above.
With the permission of the last 6 cases that I have looked at, and asked them to look at the documentation given by the Secretary of State as evidence in each case to remove benefits before I gave them the recent results of those cases and the time to resolve each case.
The bottom line is that they will be in London on Tuesday and have been allowed to make up a list of questions that will be presented to the chief Whip at Question time there.
I know that the main questions I want to ask are about procedural changes to the law.
There is also the question of what is a legal document and why when medical information is sent in with the From and information gathering that the DWP and PIP's have, why the assessment companies do not follow the same rules.
In writing a program and having because of the Tribunal having to show the hard copies of letters/E Mails/Medical information supplied and removed from my files all because the DWP/PIP's/Secretary of State will not up date their files.
Since I need to show links my first link deals with what is called the Merlin Standard.
This document was an " up grade " of the assessment process charter and is written by the powers to be. Department for Works and Pensions.
Merlin Standard, Disability Confident ( Leader) (https://disabilityconfident.campign.gov.uk/)
Written by the Centre for Health and Disability Assessments ( Operated by Maximus)
Even the first paragraph says: the assessment is arranged by the Health Assessment Advisory Service and carries out assessments for the DWP?
It is the decision maker who decides whether an assessment is needed. Seems not.
Page 2. Our Customer Charter is displayed in all our Assessment Centres. Never seen one. more information on our web site @ www.chduk.co.uk
Down load this link and make references to Questions and answers.
Page 3. Who will carry out my assessment.
The HEALTH PROFESSIONAL doing your assessment is FULLY REGISTERED, QUALIFIED AND APPROVED.
Surely this must be a statement of fact since this statement is in every document supplied by any assessment company, since this must also cover Duty of Care whether at the premises for assessment or going to a home assessment? And yes I also understand telephone assessments and paper based when mental issues are involved.
It then states that depending on WCA the questions may include, and states some.
Depending on your illness or disability and the type of assessment you are having, the assessment may include:
- A Physical Examination.
- Blood pressure, sight, hearing or other tests.
- Movements such as stretching, standing and bending.
The number of time I have been told that it is not a medical, on here, yet, how or would you let a person that you don't know or never wears a I D badge, or does not have on the wall or on display his Medical Certification..... to assess, under the Duty of Care?
The health professional will not ask you to make any movements that cause you discomfort, please tell the HCP?
I have and I know many others have sent in Medical Information that stated I cannot walk, or will loose balance if not holding onto something and then being asked to stand on one foot, knowing I have Lupus, or touch my toes and instating I cannot do it was told its part of the exam so I can get a better picture?
Then there are the other tests?
This only from page 3? If you have a copy of the original document words have been changed? So who has approved the changes?
I do not like sarcasm but welcome any comments as long as they are constructive, so I could post other posts about a MEDICAL that you say does not take place and to fight the claimants case once you have a copy of the report, well why must you ask for a copy as the original states the assessor will send you a copy when he sends it to the Decision Maker and asks you to contact the Decision Maker if there are things that were not included or left off before the Decision Maker decides to get a complete report about you.
I can also show the link to PHSO, name of the caseworker@ombudsman.org.uk and the list of reviews and information:
_ The information provided.
_ Correspondence from Capita, the DWP and the Independent Case Examiners Office.
_ Capita's Complaint process.
_ DWP's Customer Charter.
_ DWP's financial Address for Maladministration Special Payments Scheme; Policy and Guiding Principles April 2012.
_ The Ombudsman's Principles of good Complaint's Handling.
_ The Ombudsman's Principles for Remedy.
That letter dated 28th June 2021, to me.
Yet here I am proving my case to PIP's again. Its all right on paper but getting any government department to actually act on any thing is down to them. They are spiriting date with no supporting evidence this also includes reports. This is just starters to put things right, " for me" and hope it shows that I am not going round in circles, comment on the links and the information I have supplied?

onebigvoice · March 2022

Funny how no comments? Had an E Mail from PIP's today, saying three weeks ago, they would open another complaint against the assessment company. Today, sorry we don't keep information further back than 2020? Yet all the Tribunals and the results since asking them to provide information seems to have already been archived? Or yet again they don't want to answer.

poppy123456 · March 2022

onebigvoice said:

Funny how no comments?

All we are doing is going round in circles. MIke's comment above in November 2021 says it all and no further comments are needed.

onebigvoice · April 2022

I have a reply from Capita when asking about their assessors and the assessment report since the recent assessment that took place was with a zoom meeting and recorded. Asked about the assessor before the assessment began, and is this assessment following the guide lines under section3;1;1 to 1.15 of the 2008 social security act? Yes it is, do you have any medical qualifications or are you registered on any medical register if as what?
The zoom meeting was suspended for 15 minutes and when she came back she said her Manager had joined the zoom meeting this is what they said: All assessors follow the protocol's set out by the DWP.
I said that did not answer my question? ALL reports written by Capita are for the decision Maker only and if at the end you want a copy you have ton ask them for a copy.
ALL our reports are recommendations only and this is why we do not put an I D only a title? I do not hold any medical qualifications and I am not registered on any medical register, as the report is only meant for the Decision Maker.
Finally in black and white about the assessment process, when asked why send the claimant to you for an assessment if the decision maker also has no medical knowledge? Because that's the process.
You can ask for an MR or FOI to see what can be changed or what we used to assess you. We use the HCP report but you don't state which HCP? Its our HCP report. when sending me the supporting evidence stipulate which HCP since mine is on Headed paper and in my medical history. No reply from them in 5 weeks. Rang today all files have been removed and are now dormant? until further notice. Are they again waiting for the 20 weeks to expire?

woodbine · April 2022

I have to agree that as poppy says "going round in circles" has no benefit at all. From quickly scanning your post above I would venture to comment that you seem to be concentrating on the illness which serves no purpose when applying for PIP.

poppy123456 · April 2022

woodbine said:

you seem to be concentrating on the illness which serves no purpose when applying for PIP.

OP is more obsessed with the qualifications the HCP has than the criteria itself.

chiarieds · April 2022

Fixating rather about HCPs, who will not have a medical 'registration' as they are mainly nurses, physios & paramedics. They have expertise in looking at a claimant's PIP form however, so are therefore able to understand a claimant's functional disabilities, if these are explained.....a point which seems to allude the OP.

Nothing further to add, as yes, this conversation continues to go around in circles.

onebigvoice · April 2022

You obviously have never checked these peoples medical Registration details or asked Capita or the others to supply you with a Registration number like those supplied by the NHS?
My fixation is because they are not registered, and a letter from Capita when asked to produce a legal document of the report with the supporting evidence was told and a hard copy: The report is for the Decision Maker only and you have to ask them for it. AND; its ONLY A RECOMENDATION TO THE DECISION MAKER IT IS HE WHO WILL MAKE THE FINAL DECISION. THAT'S WHY WE DON'T HAVE TO SUPPLY ANYTHING?
What are your comments on that? Or would you also like me to pop the letter on here naming the senior Assessor who made the statement just before telling him I have applied to London to force you to reply?

poppy123456 · April 2022

Yet again, this has all been dealt with in all your previous threads. I see no reason to continue with this at all because all we're doing is going round in circles.

I can see why you have so many issues with PIP, if this is what you continue to do.

woodbine · April 2022

It is perfectly true to say that the assessor writes a report for the DM who then...guess what?...makes a decision, that decision is based on your application and the assessment report, end of really.

chiarieds · April 2022

It's correct that HCPs will not be 'medically' registered (as they're not Drs), however they will be registered with their own professional bodies, e.g. I'm a Member of the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy, so can put M.C.S.P. after my name. When I was working, I was also a State Registered Physiotherapist (S.R. P.), something I let lapse several years after I stopped working as it incurred an annual fee.

Other than that, which I hope may clarify your issues, there is nothing more to be said as per Poppy & woodbine's replies.

MarkM88 · April 2022

Just to add nurses will be registered with the NMC.

Paramedics, occupational therapists, etc will be registered with HCPC.

woodbine · April 2022

I have a relative who is a supervisor for ATOS before joining them several years ago she had been a psychiatric nurse totally unqualified imho to assess many applicants for benefits but to quote her "the hours are better and so are the wages"
My daughter got a first class degree with honours in HR and has about 12 letters after her name, luckily she doesn't work for ATOS or any of "them"

onebigvoice · April 2022

poppy123456 said:

Yet again, this has all been dealt with in all your previous threads. I see no reason to continue with this at all because all we're doing is going round in circles.
I can see why you have so many issues with PIP, if this is what you continue to do.

chiarieds said:

It's correct that HCPs will not be 'medically' registered (as they're not Drs), however they will be registered with their own professional bodies, e.g. I'm a Member of the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy, so can put M.C.S.P. after my name. When I was working, I was also a State Registered Physiotherapist (S.R. P.), something I let lapse several years after I stopped working as it incurred an annual fee.
Other than that, which I hope may clarify your issues, there is nothing more to be said as per Poppy & woodbine's replies.

woodbine said:

It is perfectly true to say that the assessor writes a report for the DM who then...guess what?...makes a decision, that decision is based on your application and the assessment report, end of really.

All perfectly great yet poppy 123456 what have you stated in previous threads that go against what I have said? I have stated that All assessors must be Medical Practitioners and registered on an appropriate Medical register. All seem to agree with that. On the day of the assessment the Assessor would have been hired by the DWP to give an assessment for ACCESS TO BENEFITS. That seems O K with every one. Yet when I state that they must be up to date on the day of an assessment and that by an appropriate medical register and when asked by the claimant which they are entitled to do. Every one comes up with an excuse? Poppy123456: If you do not wish to comment in support of your statements that's fine by me as this is your opinion, but why write or comment again and again saying the same thing about my fixation since that is what the DWP says I am entitled to?
Chiarieds: state its correct that HCP's will not be medically registered ( as Doctors) but will be registered with their own professional bodies. You then state that you were one of these when you were working and also a physiotherapist, but again if you were hired by an assessment company to assess claimants you stated you let this lapse SEVERAL YEARS after you stopped working as it incurred an annual fee, which you were not willing to pay. Well years later I still have all my certification and still attend classes and up grades to keep up with the changing laws and wording that the DWP seem to try to change every other week.
This would also mean if you were working for an assessment company and had the titles of M.C.S.P. and S.R.P after your name you could not assess anyone because they had hired some one to assess that is no longer able to hold those titles or at least use those titles for the benefit of wages because you were no longer willing to pay the fees to retain the registration.
Something I have also been posting about, if when working your were A, B, C, and were certified to hold these titles then the company you worked for would have to make sure that they were up to date since if the HSE decided to to an audit of the work force and found members of a position that required certification were not up to date the company would be fined. Even a simple thing like First Aid. If your name was on their then your must be certified. You should know this, and something you should also know, but didn't state, was your name and title when working for the company's that you had these titles for on the bottom of all the reports you wrote?
Woodbine: read your own assessment report it states that we have made our decision on the evidence supplied, and from information supplied by the claimant that treats him and also the assessment report. What it does not state is who's assessment since all yours are on headed paper and have the ID and title on all the medical reports yet theirs ( Capita, Maximus, ATOS or Concentrix) don't and would be luck to have a name and title. where the Law states for supporting evidence that the name on the report must be the same as the Registration Name and I D number on an appropriate Medical Register and up to date? In other words any middle names to be included, most use the middle name on the report which will not match anything and its not for you to guess whether this is the right person or not, what have they got to hide that the NHS has not?

chiarieds · April 2022

Hmmm...not that I'd ever want to work for the DWP, but I still hold the 'title' of M.C.S.P. (what makes you think I'm no longer entitled to use this?) tho, as mentioned, I could no longer additionally use S.R.P., as this was just needed whilst working (please read my comments carefully). Think it's fair enough to stop paying for a registration that's no longer needed; I just kept it on for a number of years in order to continue to receive the 'Physiotherapy' magazine. I'm long retired, so this no longer has any relevance,

As Mark says, a physio, OT or paramedic, etc. will now be registered with the HCPC.

Great you've kept up with your certification, in whatever field, which I don't believe is paramedical from what you've previously said, so believe I understand a little more about, just from my own field, what HCPs may know, & that their background is indeed helpful in assessing functional problems with a benefit such as PIP.

Assessors do not have to be 'Medical practioners,' sorry. Yet again you seem to be missing the point we are all trying to relay.

woodbine · April 2022

My review application dropped through the door box this very morning, now I fully expect to have an assessment at some point in the coming weeks, maybe even months who knows? Personally speaking I don't give a monkeys who does my assessment, what letters they have or don't have after their name or what professional body they may or may not be. member of.

All I ask is that they give me a fair assessment based on the face2face or telephone assessment, that's all I ask nothing more nothing less.

Now with all due respect I won't be returning to this discussion.

onebigvoice · April 2022

This written years ago to show my questions do not change but answers do?
I am now just going to concentrate on the topic " How do we get heard"
Since LiMA is the system used by Capita and Maximus to assess, which is a tick box system of points I gave them the same type of sheet to fill out.
FIG 1. Sample letter about challenging PIP’s

Add this to Ruba, file 26/01/2022.

You can use this letter to ask a health care professional for evidence to challenge a decision made about your Personal Independence Payment (PIP) claim. You can use the same letter whether you are submitting a Mandatory Reconsideration or an Appeal. Where you see something written in red, it means you will need to add or change something so that the letter is accurate for you.

To: (add name of professional)

Address: (add address of professional)

Date: (add date)

Dear Sir/Madam

Request for medical evidence

Name: (add your name)

Address: (add your address)

D.o.B: (add your date of birth)

I am challenging a decision about my entitlement to Personal Independence Payment and I am writing to ask if you would offer some evidence that may help my case. Evidence from medical professionals can be extremely useful in helping decision makers at the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) make correct decisions.

I would be very grateful if you could answer the questions that you think are relevant to my condition from the list below (and return them to me in the envelope provided. Please be aware that I am not in a position to pay for any report or information) (Insert or delete as applicable).

The challenge is about a decision made in (add date mm/yy) so I would be grateful if you could provide information based on how my condition affected me at that time.

The questions focus on my mental health rather than my physical health. But if you have information regarding my physical health, please include this at the end of the form. Thank you very much, in advance for any help you can provide towards my claim.

Yours faithfully,

(Add your name).

Please state what conditions I have been diagnosed with, and what medications, treatments and therapies have been prescribed or recommended.

Can you look at the questions below and add some information for the ones you think are relevant for me.

When answering the relevant questions please think about my ability to perform each activity safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly (as necessary) and within a reasonable time. Please indicate where I am unable to perform these activities without either physical help, or someone prompting me to carry out the activities.

1. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to prepare food?

2. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to take appropriate nutrition?

3. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to manage therapy or monitor my health condition?

4. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to wash or bathe?

5. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to manage my toilet needs or incontinence?

6. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to dress or undress?

7. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to communicate verbally?

8. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to read and understand signs symbols and words?

9. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to engage with other people (who I both know and do not know) face-to-face?

10. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to make budgeting decisions?

11. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to plan and follow journeys (both those that are familiar and unfamiliar to me)?

12. To what extent do my condition(s) affect my ability to physically move around?

Signature Date Hospital/Surgery Stamp

FIG 1. Sample letter about challenging PIP’s

Add this to Ruba, file 26/01/2022.

( this is here because it was copied from a letter sent this year to Stephen Doughty MP and was a copy of one of the previous letters sent in 2020 and 2018.) The spacing is different when printed in A4 to allow answers to be placed.