Using a van as a private vehicle and speeding

jezza69
jezza69 Online Community Member Posts: 3 Listener
edited October 2023 in Transport and travel
Hi,  we use a Renault traffic crew cab van to transport my son who has cerebral palsy and epilepsy and his wheelchair.  We do this as we couldn’t find a car that was big enough to carry both himself, his wheelchair, his sister and luggage when going away.  

The vehicle is used and insured as a private vehicle for this reason and is not used for any commercial purposes.  

At the weekend we were travelling for a short break when I was caught by a mobile speed camera van.  At the time we were in a 60mph limit and we were measured doing 57mph so we thought we were fine.  However,  we’ve been advised that as our vehicle is classed as a goods vehicle then the actual speed limit is 10mph lower than that stated speed limit hence the speeding ticket.  

A couple of questions / points.  Firstly,  our vehicle is used and insured as a private vehicle and has no commercial use.  We purely have a van due it’s ability to transport our son and his wheelchair.  Secondly,  we weren’t aware that a different speed limit applied to that signposted.  

I’m aware that a lot of people with disabled children/ dependants use vans for this same reason and I wanted to ask if anyone else has had a similar experience and whether they’ve been able to challenge it?  Many thanks 

Comments

  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Online Community Member Posts: 3,649 Championing
    As it's a first offence and a genuine misunderstanding, I would recommend challenging this ticket on those grounds.

    However, the speed limit for vans is 10mph lower than the cars on a single & dual carriageway, regardless of your current use of the vehicle. 

    The Trafic Crew Cab is too large/heavy to count as a car derived van and doesn't qualify as a dual purpose vehicle either.  So the speeding ticket is justified in this case.
  • honestjon
    honestjon Online Community Member Posts: 173 Empowering
    I found this information.

    There are exceptions to this basic rule for van speed limits, though. If the van is small and clearly a car with blank panels replacing its window glass (such as the Ford Fiesta Van or Dacia Duster Commercial) it's classed as a Car-Derived Van (CDV) and the standard national speed limits for cars apply. The official definition of a CDV is "a goods vehicle which is constructed or adapted as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2.0 tonnes". 

    I'm not sure if the weight of your van means it won't be considered as a CDV although your van is adapted.
  • dkb123
    dkb123 Online Community Member, Scope Member Posts: 169 Empowering
    the construction and use regulations for vehicles legislation is involved with this, and if you are using it for anything other than the conveyance of goods, then you are breaking the law, I am surprised the police officer didn't tell you this 
    Your insurance would not be valid in any case because it is being driven against the regulations 
    you should contact a special car adaption company to make sure there is the proper safety provision and contact the DVLA to see what alterations need to be made to make it legal, if you keep on using it , in the present state you are liable for large fines and i think it is an indictable offence 
  • Jimm_Scope
    Jimm_Scope Posts: 5,717 Scope Online Community Specialist
    If the van you use is a car-derived van (must be under 2 tonnes weight when loaded) as honestjon mentions. The definition is on the gov.uk site here. If your van falls under that definition then you will need to speak to the DVLA about getting the registration changed. 

    If it does not fit under the definition above then it is by law a goods-vehicle, even if you do not use it for such purpose, and must stick to the speed limits for such vehicles. I believe the onus is on the driver to know the rules of their vehicle.

    One option could be to request taking a speed awareness course while explaining your circumstances. I know some police forces give that as an option instead of points and a fine.
  • Jimm_Scope
    Jimm_Scope Posts: 5,717 Scope Online Community Specialist
    dkb123 said:
    the construction and use regulations for vehicles legislation is involved with this, and if you are using it for anything other than the conveyance of goods, then you are breaking the law, I am surprised the police officer didn't tell you this 
    Your insurance would not be valid in any case because it is being driven against the regulations 
    you should contact a special car adaption company to make sure there is the proper safety provision and contact the DVLA to see what alterations need to be made to make it legal, if you keep on using it , in the present state you are liable for large fines and i think it is an indictable offence 
    Unless I am mistaken this is only for vehicles that are over 3.5 tonnes. I would be surprised if jezza69's van reached that weight.
  • honestjon
    honestjon Online Community Member Posts: 173 Empowering
    dkb123 said:
    the construction and use regulations for vehicles legislation is involved with this, and if you are using it for anything other than the conveyance of goods, then you are breaking the law, I am surprised the police officer didn't tell you this 
    Your insurance would not be valid in any case because it is being driven against the regulations 
    you should contact a special car adaption company to make sure there is the proper safety provision and contact the DVLA to see what alterations need to be made to make it legal, if you keep on using it , in the present state you are liable for large fines and i think it is an indictable offence 
    Unless I am mistaken this is only for vehicles that are over 3.5 tonnes. I would be surprised if jezza69's van reached that weight.
    That is what I thought but I'm no expert.
    And also I thought there was a 10%+4 mph tolerance on speeding tickets? 57 in a 50 seems tight?
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Online Community Member Posts: 3,649 Championing
    honestjon said:
    And also I thought there was a 10%+4 mph tolerance on speeding tickets? 57 in a 50 seems tight?
    That was scrapped a few years ago.  There is no longer any nationwide tolerance.  Local authorities are allowed to choose their own tolerance.
  • jezza69
    jezza69 Online Community Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Sorry, for clarification,  the vehicle hasn’t been modified.  The wheelchair isn’t motorised it’s just a hand pushed one which we just fold up and store in the rear of the van.  Children sit in the rear seats which are fully functional with isofix points and seat belts for each passenger.  
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,474 Championing
    I think you should get some expert advice on this before deciding to challenge it because if you do challenge it then you could end up in an even worse situation than you are now. 
  • michael57
    michael57 Online Community Member Posts: 999 Championing
    check your logbook it should tell you if its a people carrier or classed as a van lots of people use vans as cars but there still vans and van speed limits apply 
  • Jimm_Scope
    Jimm_Scope Posts: 5,717 Scope Online Community Specialist
    I would do the following.

    1. Check what classification your vehicle falls under. Whether it's a car-derived van or a van, you can use the gov.uk link I posted earlier.
    2. Follow Poppy's advice and seek more expert advice on this situation, we're all lay-people here especially when it comes to vehicle law
  • honestjon
    honestjon Online Community Member Posts: 173 Empowering
    I think you should get some expert advice on this before deciding to challenge it because if you do challenge it then you could end up in an even worse situation than you are now. 
    I agree you need expert advice but as far as I know once you challenge the ticket it is frozen and there will be no enforcement and the fine won't increase until a decision is made.
    Obviously I would get expert advice to confirm this 
  • honestjon
    honestjon Online Community Member Posts: 173 Empowering
    If the van you use is a car-derived van (must be under 2 tonnes weight when loaded) as honestjon mentions. The definition is on the gov.uk site here. If your van falls under that definition then you will need to speak to the DVLA about getting the registration changed. 

    If it does not fit under the definition above then it is by law a goods-vehicle, even if you do not use it for such purpose, and must stick to the speed limits for such vehicles. I believe the onus is on the driver to know the rules of their vehicle.

    One option could be to request taking a speed awareness course while explaining your circumstances. I know some police forces give that as an option instead of points and a fine.
    The driving awareness course seems the sensible option here because it will improve the drivers ability and avoid points.
    I have been on a course and it was useful and definitely not a waste of time because I learned things I didn't know 
  • jezza69
    jezza69 Online Community Member Posts: 3 Listener
    edited October 2023
  • MW123
    MW123 Scope Member Posts: 908 Championing

    @jezza69

    There are no specific regulations for converting vans into passenger vehicles. The insurance company need to be informed regarding the additional seating capacity to ensure everyone in the vehicle is protected. 

    Whether your Renault Traffic crew cab van is classified as a 'goods vehicle' or a 'passenger vehicle' is determined by your vehicle logbook. Nevertheless, traffic regulations generally consider the vehicle's classification at the time of manufacture and its intended purpose for use, rather than the specific reasons for its usage. 

    You appear to be a devoted parent, putting in significant effort to ensure your son's comfortable travel with you. I genuinely empathise with your endeavours to provide your loved ones with a well-deserved break, only to unexpectedly encounter this expense. While I can't guarantee you'll be exempt from it, there is a slight possibility that by thoroughly explaining your circumstances, the recipient may be touched by your story and decide to waive the ticket in this particular case.

  • Jimm_Scope
    Jimm_Scope Posts: 5,717 Scope Online Community Specialist
    edited October 2023
    I do feel like this thread, including myself, has perhaps come across more critical than intended. As @MW123 has said. It sounds like you've done what you think is right and best for your son @jezza69 . Unfortunately the law rarely considers "what is right and best", it is just enforced as it is written down. 

    I hope you're able to explain the circumstances to the police and there is some route you can go down that avoids any fine or penalty. It's why I brought up the course that they can sometimes offer as an alternative. 
  • Carman24
    Carman24 Online Community Member Posts: 1 Listener

    Hi Im new to the forum and stumbled across it,

    I wanted to offer some information regading my situation in this case.

    I have a LWB vivaro Crewcab (same as renault traffic)

    I have managed to prove my Van is subject to car car speed limits due to falling under the classification of dual purpose vehicle.

    It is less than 2000kg (unladen)

    The distance between rear most part of steering wheel and back most part of second row(permenantly fitted) seat is at least 1/3 of distance from steering wheel to back doors

    I have windows to both sides and rear that meet the prescribed area in the legislation

    this has allowed me to prove that the speed limit is incorrect for my vehicle, there is no catagory on the V5 for dual purpose vehicle and as such does not require any update to DVLA just insurnance needs to be correct.

    I hope this helps others in similar situation

  • Albus_Scope
    Albus_Scope Posts: 8,699 Scope Online Community Coordinator

    That's great @Carman24 thank you for sharing. Also welcome to the community. 😁