How do WCA assessors know you are not lying about aggression?

Dimang

Hi everyone.
This question is related to the one I recently posted. But because it is fundamentally a different question, I decided to create a new discussion.

My question is basically in the title, how can the workers who carry out the face-to-face WCAs be confident that I am not making things up about episodes of aggression?

 It seems to me that the only solid direct evidence they can rely on is my GP's notes. When I initially started treatment for mental health, I mentioned several ways in which it affects me, the main one being terrible sleep. At that time, the aggression was there but it was more controllable, so I did not mention it.

 Because the treatment I am using doesn't do much (i am currently taking a third antidepressant after the first two didn't do anything for me), the aggression has become a lot worse. And when I had my last medication review, I mentioned it to the doctor who took it serious and wrote everything down. This was AFTER I filled in the UC50 form though, where I did mention aggression but stated that is frequent, whereas by now it has become daily. I am going to mention this during the WCA I have on Monday, but how do they decide if it is true or not?

Any advice would be appreciated.

poppy123456

Your evidence, whether that be medical, letters from someone that knows you well or even your anecdotal evidence, which is your real world examples of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you.

They very rarely contact anyone for any evidence. If they contact a GP they will be sent a form to fill in and return, known as the ESA113.

woodbine

Good question but how does anyone know if anyone is lying (or not) about anything ?

Dimang

poppy123456 said:

Your evidence, whether that be medical, letters from someone that knows you well or even your anecdotal evidence, which is your real world examples of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you.

They very rarely contact anyone for any evidence. If they contact a GP they will be sent a form to fill in and return, known as the ESA113.

I didn't know that letters from someone who knows you can be taken into consideration. If I knew it's something they consider, I would have provided it when sending back the UC50 form. Is it worth getting a family member to type this letter at this stage?

The leaflet that came with the appointment letter says "Take any NEW medical evidence since......." but right after that it says "We don't need you to get any NEW or specially prepared information" (and it says in the context of doctors and healthcare professionals). I am not trying to be funny, but it's like they want to make things confusing for you on purpose. I have read the quoted sentences several times to make sure I didn't miss anything and sadly I haven't, it is a 100% contradiction...

woodbine said:

Good question but how does anyone know if anyone is lying (or not) about anything ?

I was never 100% familiar with the system to be honest, I just never had a reason to be. And before I started doing my research about WCAs a couple of days ago, I thought that maybe they are trained to see if somebody is likely  not being honest and then include that in the report for decision maker to consider (as strange as it may sound). But from replies I got on this forum, it seems that it is much simpler than this and it's all about what you say and about paperwork based evidence...

poppy123456

I don’t see it as a contradiction at all. What they are advising you not to do is go frantically trying to get medical evidence, if you don’t have any. Letters from someone that knows you well, isn’t medical evidence. Not that medical evidence is needed anyway. 

As I advised in your other thread, the majority of people are found to have LCWRA without any issues. 

It’s nothing to do with people being dishonest, it’s about proving that your health conditions mean you’re not fit for work or any work related activities. Or not fit for work, which is what LCW is. 

My last review for the WCA assessment was based mostly on my anecdotal evidence and I had a paper based assessment. 

2oldcodgers

ESA or even PIP/Attendance Allowance  is primarily based on what you say are your restrictions. Those restrictions have to be reasonable of course. But, to me it is very confusing. Is it for the claimant to PROVE that they fit the requirements or, is it for the DWP to PROVE that you don't?
As an example amongst other points awarded I gained 6 for taking nutrition. 
Where they managed to give me that score I don't know.

Needs assistance to be able to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 6

I indicated that I would almost always forget (my wife has to remind me constantly)  to take medication whilst eating in order that the food digested can be broken down to it's various elements. Without that medication it would not give me any nutrition but would simply pass through my body. 

Was I telling a porkie? Does my wife have to remind me? Do I really need to take any medication?

The idea of having assessments is to hopefully decide if what I am saying is true or not. That can only be done by questioning.

Should the mantra that is behind the assessors be - Trust no one and trust nothing?

I do feel that if you can provide a reasonable storyline that on the balance of probabilities is true and valid the DWP will accept almost anything you tell them.

Dimang

2oldcodgers said:

ESA or even PIP/Attendance Allowance  is primarily based on what you say are your restrictions. Those restrictions have to be reasonable of course. But, to me it is very confusing. Is it for the claimant to PROVE that they fit the requirements or, is it for the DWP to PROVE that you don't?
As an example amongst other points awarded I gained 6 for taking nutrition. 
Where they managed to give me that score I don't know.

Needs assistance to be able to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 6

I indicated that I would almost always forget (my wife has to remind me constantly)  to take medication whilst eating in order that the food digested can be broken down to it's various elements. Without that medication it would not give me any nutrition but would simply pass through my body. 

Was I telling a porkie? Does my wife have to remind me? Do I really need to take any medication?

The idea of having assessments is to hopefully decide if what I am saying is true or not. That can only be done by questioning.

Should the mantra that is behind the assessors be - Trust no one and trust nothing?

I do feel that if you can provide a reasonable storyline that on the balance of probabilities is true and valid the DWP will accept almost anything you tell them.

I suppose because assessors are also humans they are not all the same, regardless of how well they are trained. A minority of them (or maybe not the minority) will have some biases, some will not like you from the start and will try to make it more difficult for you. In case that happens, you have to be prepared I guess. I say this because of my experience with GPs. My practice has quite a few doctors there. Some of them really go the extra mile to help you, but some don't really care. When I went to see a doctor in the summer about the condition I am in now, towards the end of our appointment when we still had 4 minutes left, I asked her to check my mouth quickly, because there was something suspicious there which I thought could be cancer (which it wasn't). She initially refused to even have a quick look, although we had 4 minutes left. I had to make a big effort to make her have a look. I avoid that doctor now when I book my appointments...
While GPs and WCA assessors are doing different jobs, there are a lot of similarities - dealing with all kinds of people, repetitive work... My sister is a GP and I know she is fed up with her career.

Poppy123456, I appreciate what you are saying and I totally believe it. I will be well prepared anyway.

Are we allowed to make notes before assessment and then take them with us to the assessment?

poppy123456

It is for you to prove you qualify an

2oldcodgers said:

ESA or even PIP/Attendance Allowance  is primarily based on what you say are your restrictions. Those restrictions have to be reasonable of course. But, to me it is very confusing. Is it for the claimant to PROVE that they fit the requirements or, is it for the DWP to PROVE that you don't?
As an example amongst other points awarded I gained 6 for taking nutrition. 
Where they managed to give me that score I don't know.

Needs assistance to be able to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition. 6

I indicated that I would almost always forget (my wife has to remind me constantly)  to take medication whilst eating in order that the food digested can be broken down to it's various elements. Without that medication it would not give me any nutrition but would simply pass through my body. 

Was I telling a porkie? Does my wife have to remind me? Do I really need to take any medication?

The idea of having assessments is to hopefully decide if what I am saying is true or not. That can only be done by questioning.

Should the mantra that is behind the assessors be - Trust no one and trust nothing?

I do feel that if you can provide a reasonable storyline that on the balance of probabilities is true and valid the DWP will accept almost anything you tell them.

Although this thread is regardng the WCA i just needed to respond to this. I've no idea how you managed to score 6 points here. A therapeutic source isn't medication. It's things like a feeding tube or feeding pump. Not only that, you said needing "prompting" this descriptor refers to "needing assisstance." More information here. https://pipinfo.net/activities/taking-nutrition

2oldcodgers

poppy123456 said:

It is for you to prove you qualify 

Although this thread is regardng the WCA i just needed to respond to this. I've no idea how you managed to score 6 points here. A therapeutic source isn't medication. It's things like a feeding tube or feeding pump. Not only that, you said needing "prompting" this descriptor refers to "needing assisstance." More information here. https://pipinfo.net/activities/taking-nutrition

At last we both agree on something!!
As I had said I too am completely in the dark with is descriptor. Maybe the assessors handbook goes deeper into what is acceptable and allowable. At the end of the day it is not that important as I would still have qualified for enhanced care without these 6 points.
I think the point I was also making was what I said on the claim form which is entirely true was just accepted as the truth without any evidence being required.

Jimm_Scope

I did bring up the publicly available PIP assessment guide handbook to take a quick look.

A therapeutic source means parenteral or enteral tube feeding using a device, such as a delivery system or feed pump.

If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then they should be considered un able to complete it at that level and an alternative descriptor selected.

Descriptor E (6 points): Needs assistance to be able to manage a therapeutic source to take nutrition
For example: may apply to claimants who require enteral or parenteral feeding and require support to manage the equipment.

This is for PIP, not WCA. Not sure if it helps! I suppose it can be up to the assessor and decision makers discretion.