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PIP first appeal - advise please

dragon60
dragon60 Community member Posts: 3 Listener
MY DIL has chronic fatigue.  We completed the application, then were called for an assessment.  I recorded the assessment.  We have had the results she has been given zero points and the written ssesssment paragraphs on the decision letter are not accurate - I would go as far as downright lies.  Been phoning to try and get a copy of the assessors report (to see if what the assessor wrote was inaccurate or if it is the DWP who made things up).  50+ mins on phone (enquiries option is what we were told we had to select) and no answer.  Tried multiple times.  Popped a request in post, but no idea if they will send or how long it will take.  So will be writing the appeal using the Mandatory reconsideration request form- I need your tips and advice please.  Thank you


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Comments

  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    You are on the right lines by requesting a copy of the assessment. It is this that you have to challenge by using any medical evidence that you can obtain. The gold standard is any reports by OT's/Consultants/GP's/Psychiatrists. Any medical tests such as MRI's blood results are very useful if the assessment has said you are capable of doing something you can't. PIP is a points based system and to be awarded the benefit you must score either 8 points for standard care or 12 points for enhanced care. With mobility it is 8 points for standard and 12 for enhanced.

    One of the tactics is to look through the descriptors and pick up the ones where you could have scored points, as you scored zero all of them would benefit you if you can identify a descriptor which applies to you and would hinder your ability to do the activity. 

    For example if you have a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome then being prompted to cook, eat, wash and dress etc would be high on your target list

  • dragon60
    dragon60 Community member Posts: 3 Listener
    Thank you.  I've made a start by picking up all the 'inaccuracies' in the My Decision paragraphs and stating this is not what I said & giving the correct answer.  I think next step, I will have to to through everything we expected to get points on and restate what we put on the application form & said in interview.  We have little evidence apart from a letter from consultant saying she has CFS,  we are stuck waiting on a new appointment, when we hope ,according to nice guidelines they should do a care and support plan and a referral to a fatigue clinic.   I'm so glad I recorded the interview.(following lots of online advice, here included)
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,406 Disability Gamechanger
    Wilf60 said:
    You are on the right lines by requesting a copy of the assessment. It is this that you have to challenge by using any medical evidence that you can obtain.

    Sorry but i disagree with this. You don't need the assessment report to challenge the decision. It's not the assessment report you're challenging, it's the decision itself.

    Concentrating wholly on the assessment report isn't going to get a PIP award. The Tribunal (if it gets that far.. likely) already know that a lot of reports are flawed so they don't need to be reminded of this. It's fine to mention a couple of obvious errors in the report but then put it to one side and forget about it. When people have the reports they are more likely to concentrate on those than what they ideally should be doing.

    Medical evidence is generally only useful if it states exactly how your conditions affect you. A diagnosis is often not in question anyway and it's not about a diagnosis.

    When writing the MR you should include a couple of real world examples of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you. Adding detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were.

    Many people claim PIP successsfully without medical evidence.

    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    dragon60 said:
    Thank you.  I've made a start by picking up all the 'inaccuracies' in the My Decision paragraphs and stating this is not what I said & giving the correct answer.  I think next step, I will have to to through everything we expected to get points on and restate what we put on the application form & said in interview.  We have little evidence apart from a letter from consultant saying she has CFS,  we are stuck waiting on a new appointment, when we hope ,according to nice guidelines they should do a care and support plan and a referral to a fatigue clinic.   I'm so glad I recorded the interview.(following lots of online advice, here included)
    Great news you are on your way. As for evidence a statement from you or the main carer will count as evidence. As would a diary of when and where you prompt the claimant to eat, wash, dress, cook etc

    You can also make a freedom of information request to local health trust and gain access to medical records. Sometimes there is a small charge £10 sometimes it is free especially if you agree to having the information digitally or on CD. It is amazing what info turns up I have done it personally and for others I have helped with making a PIP claim. Any evidence found can be submitted as evidence
  • honeyhoney
    honeyhoney Community member Posts: 64 Connected
    Wilf60 said:
     Any evidence found can be submitted as evidence
    This is what I also intend to do at the MR stage.
    Since they accuse me of: "Evidence shows you have no specialist input..."

    So I will send them all the "waste paper", starting from letters from the psychologist and social worker, 
    through printouts of my visits with the physiotherapist and GP, 
    which I have available in my NHS application. 

    Of course, I will go through each descriptor as Poppy advises 
    (I did that in my application, but it didn't help) 
    and I will give them the situations that happened to me when 

    I direct them to my initial application with my descriptions.
    In fact, I will treat MR with the tribunal in mind rather than any success at the MR stage
  • dragon60
    dragon60 Community member Posts: 3 Listener
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    With regard to the descriptors which rightly have been pointed out as the most important thing in the PIP process, highlight any comments in your medical evidence which you rely on. For example if your GP comments that you walk using a stick put this in any descriptor which is relevant to your mobility

    TBH I didn't think MR success rate was as high as 27%! I always though it was single digit because you hardly ever heard of anyone being successful at the MR stage. There is hope then as a quarter of those who are rejected overturn the decision at the MR stage
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    Wilf60 said:
     Any evidence found can be submitted as evidence
    This is what I also intend to do at the MR stage.
    Since they accuse me of: "Evidence shows you have no specialist input..."

    So I will send them all the "waste paper", starting from letters from the psychologist and social worker, 
    through printouts of my visits with the physiotherapist and GP, 
    which I have available in my NHS application. 

    Of course, I will go through each descriptor as Poppy advises 
    (I did that in my application, but it didn't help) 
    and I will give them the situations that happened to me when 

    I direct them to my initial application with my descriptions.
    In fact, I will treat MR with the tribunal in mind rather than any success at the MR stage
    Make sure you go through the medical evidence and find anything which helps your case. As explained if your GP comments on your walking ability include the comments in the mobility descriptor. Do the same in other descriptors if there is any mention of weak grip, deafness, eyesight or mental health problems etc
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,406 Disability Gamechanger
    Wilf60 said:
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    The only person that really knows how your conditions affect you is yourself. This is why including anecdotal evidence, your real world incidents, is the way forward.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • honeyhoney
    honeyhoney Community member Posts: 64 Connected
    I have a question. 
    In my application I mentioned that I had "hearing problems". 
    But to be honest, I didn't pay attention to it. I even omitted the descriptor "verbal communication". 

    This is because at the time of filling out the application, although I was almost completely deaf in both ears, 
    the only diagnosis was ears blocked with wax and neither I nor the doctor was able to determine what my hearing would be like after the wax was removed.
     
    Unfortunately, despite two wax removal treatments, my hearing did not return to an acceptable level. 
    I was referred to an audiologist and unfortunately the diagnosis was "severe deafness". 

    I have been wearing hearing aids for a week. (I didn't have them during the conversation with the assessor, which made it difficult for me to communicate, and also with the translator, because English is not my first language) 
    I tried to explain how it affects my daily functioning, but it was omitted during the assessment by the HP and DM. 

    Currently, I am at the MRI stage, I have a letter from the employee from the city council who visited my house, a certificate and a "severe deafness with speech" card and, of course, an audiogram. 

    Now, should I send it all together with MR and show by going through the appropriate descriptors what impact it has on my daily functioning, or should I write a new application?
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,406 Disability Gamechanger
    As you did mention hearing problems when you filled out the form then it's fine to go ahead and send any extra evidence you have for the MR.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    Wilf60 said:
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    The only person that really knows how your conditions affect you is yourself. This is why including anecdotal evidence, your real world incidents, is the way forward.
    Fair enough but that is not my experience. If you think you can pass PIP assessments without good evidence then good luck to you, you'll need it
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    I have a question. 
    In my application I mentioned that I had "hearing problems". 
    But to be honest, I didn't pay attention to it. I even omitted the descriptor "verbal communication". 

    This is because at the time of filling out the application, although I was almost completely deaf in both ears, 
    the only diagnosis was ears blocked with wax and neither I nor the doctor was able to determine what my hearing would be like after the wax was removed.
     
    Unfortunately, despite two wax removal treatments, my hearing did not return to an acceptable level. 
    I was referred to an audiologist and unfortunately the diagnosis was "severe deafness". 

    I have been wearing hearing aids for a week. (I didn't have them during the conversation with the assessor, which made it difficult for me to communicate, and also with the translator, because English is not my first language) 
    I tried to explain how it affects my daily functioning, but it was omitted during the assessment by the HP and DM. 

    Currently, I am at the MRI stage, I have a letter from the employee from the city council who visited my house, a certificate and a "severe deafness with speech" card and, of course, an audiogram. 

    Now, should I send it all together with MR and show by going through the appropriate descriptors what impact it has on my daily functioning, or should I write a new application?
    Definately
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    Wilf60 said:
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    The only person that really knows how your conditions affect you is yourself. This is why including anecdotal evidence, your real world incidents, is the way forward.
    Should of added that is the first time I have heard an OT report described as 'hear say' 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,406 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2023
    Wilf60 said:
    Wilf60 said:
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    The only person that really knows how your conditions affect you is yourself. This is why including anecdotal evidence, your real world incidents, is the way forward.
    Fair enough but that is not my experience. If you think you can pass PIP assessments without good evidence then good luck to you, you'll need it

    Thanks but i don't need good luck. I've had 3 PIP paper based assessments and 1 work capability assessment which was also paper based, which consisted of mostly anecdotal evidence... not medical evidence. If you want to continue to think that medical evidence is needed then please carry on.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,406 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2023
    Wilf60 said:
    Wilf60 said:
    dragon60 said:
    I read only 27%successfull at this first stage, so I too expect to have to go to tribunal.  I didn't know evidence in the form of a statement from the main carer could be sent, or diary.
    Yes a statement from the main carer and a diary of care (or a care plan) do count as evidence. That said you have to remember that more weight is given to OT reports, GP reports, professional care plans than your own self assessment, but it is still important evidence and should be included.

    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    The only person that really knows how your conditions affect you is yourself. This is why including anecdotal evidence, your real world incidents, is the way forward.
    Should of added that is the first time I have heard an OT report described as 'hear say' 

    Ummm i didn't say an OT report was "hearsay" i said GP report is. As you can clearly see here exactly what i said. Highlighted in bold. 
    I disagree about more weight being given to GP reports. A GP doesn't spend any time with you to know exactly how you manage the activities for the PIP descriptors. If they know it's because you've told them and then it becomes "hear say"

    I'll just post this link here again. https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/12855/#59781

    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • honeyhoney
    honeyhoney Community member Posts: 64 Connected
    As you did mention hearing problems when you filled out the form then it's fine to go ahead and send any extra evidence you have for the MR.
    Wilf60 said:
    Definately
    Thank you... valuable advice as usual  :smile:
  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 15,894 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2023
    And about GP's letters @Wilf60 : https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/17517/ I totally agree with poppy, & as explained in this link, .....'if a GP or consultant can talk about your budgeting, reading, toileting and cooking etc. then you’re likely in an inappropriate relationship with them.'


  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    I have a question. 
    In my application I mentioned that I had "hearing problems". 
    But to be honest, I didn't pay attention to it. I even omitted the descriptor "verbal communication". 

    This is because at the time of filling out the application, although I was almost completely deaf in both ears, 
    the only diagnosis was ears blocked with wax and neither I nor the doctor was able to determine what my hearing would be like after the wax was removed.
     
    Unfortunately, despite two wax removal treatments, my hearing did not return to an acceptable level. 
    I was referred to an audiologist and unfortunately the diagnosis was "severe deafness". 

    I have been wearing hearing aids for a week. (I didn't have them during the conversation with the assessor, which made it difficult for me to communicate, and also with the translator, because English is not my first language) 
    I tried to explain how it affects my daily functioning, but it was omitted during the assessment by the HP and DM. 

    Currently, I am at the MRI stage, I have a letter from the employee from the city council who visited my house, a certificate and a "severe deafness with speech" card and, of course, an audiogram. 

    Now, should I send it all together with MR and show by going through the appropriate descriptors what impact it has on my daily functioning, or should I write a new application?
    Definately
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    Thanks but i don't need good luck. I've had 3 PIP paper based assessments and 1 work capability assessment which was also paper based, which consisted of mostly anecdotal evidence... not medical evidence. If you want to continue to think that medical evidence is needed then please carry on.

    Again you are talking about yourself. I have been involved in many different PIP applications and believe me they are so diverse.

    Good for you if you have had a number of paper based decisions hope they continue but that doesn't mean your circumstances are transferable to other claimants.

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