This is a mixed bag.

onebigvoice

I was reading a post on a site about man-made objects and how they were able to cut and transport Granite Blocks without chipping, or, wearing the faces, and also not cracking the blocks on transport, the latest one was 1650 TONS, one piece and better finish than a Lazer?  The nearest quarry, hundreds of miles away?  In writing a post about that, I went off on a tangent slightly but thought I would post it here and see what you think.
  OBV.

Does size matter? Man is discovering things TODAY that even 100 years ago would have had you locked up. What have we achieved, what have we found? Transport, Flight, Space travel? Worm Holes, Black Holes, Sinkholes. X-rays, MRI scans, laser cutters, Water cutters, sound waves, The list is increasing every day, yet instead of looking into space as the possibility of where we came from, we as Humans have not understood the basic rules of survival. If you kill something make sure it's for food, not for sport, if you want something then go out and earn it. Why are people who are in Gaza being subjected to all this? Today's news shows more attacks, soon there won't be any buildings standing. Are we as humans still allowing this to happen? YES WE ARE. Our Government says they will support them, then stop this war now. Stop unnecessary bloodshed. Is it because we have trade deals with people that support Hamas? Or, if we are seen by others to "do the right thing" there will be consequences.
  To me we seem to have lost our way, we are inventing things to make our lives easier, or are we.  Why is the cost of things going up not down then?  Why in using AI are we still having mistakes in the systems we produce.  It comes down to "human error"  Robots don't make mistakes unless they are programed to do so.
  The new assessment system comming soon will be from an A I program.  This is because the government has thought to drop assessment times and decisioin making by using the same program called LiMA.  ( Logic Intergrated Medical Access)
This system has been used for years yet the problem is not the program itself but the people that run the program and also not allow for "tweeking" the system when errors are found.  The new system is supposed to remove all of this, which it does, since the AI program has no "GREY" AREAS, its all black and white, the human element is now gone, and ther points system as it now is makes it harder to get any points or because they have been altered to a lower amount, more conditions are required.
  I find this strange since the DWP have brought out an updated list of complaints that a claimant can have which were not on the list before, as mental issues will need clarification, or terminal Cancer forms are reacted to quicker as per the Charter set out many years ago.
  With AI why has the wait time for receiving a "form" not changed?  10 months and no receipt?  I down loaded a copy of ther form filled it out and sent in November?  Friday 5th January 2024. they rang me to say they were looking at it and will receive a call from the assessor to arange a visit.  They may take a few weeks so be patient?  The Hard copy was sent on the 17th November 2023 registered post.  The Printed copy taken over the hub and placed onto their system hand delivered, ( Printed out and scanned onto their system at 50pence a sheet?) on the 8th December 2023?
  Do I see any changes.  No not really.  Have to wait and see what happens at the assessment for my wife.
  As far as the war goes why are we not training people as brick layers and electricians similar to the Nightingale Rebuild where buildings can be levelled and over here pre-fabricated structures can be made now ready for the assistance these people will need it.  Gets people back in work, gives skills around the country to areas that need rejuvinating because of closures or redendency and would be better instead of sending bullets and rockets.  this could also include medical staff and skilled workers to help rebuild there lives, but in the long run ours as well.
  

WhatThe

In the 70's we foresaw a universal 4-day working week in the wake of increased automation. 50 years later, it is only now being trialled in the UK.

Added to that, half the population suddenly has 7 more years before they can retire so additional jobs are required to meet that new demand (increasing the school leaving age by 2 years slightly offsets this). Most of the disabled population is expected to prepare for/move into/return to work under the current ideology.

A 21% increase in pay from April for apprentices is a bit of good news but turning technical colleges into universities with fees was incredibly mixed up in terms of productivity! 

OBV the world has never made sense to me but our society seems to regress rather than progress, time and time again

onebigvoice

I 110% if that was possible, agree.  As fast as we advance we seem to go backwards.  You also have to remember we were told to save for our retirement so that the gain would be if you can afford to put that little bit extra away you would reap the benefits when you retire by doing the things that you did not do when working  like holidays, by then paying off the mortgage, allowing you to pass onto your kids so they can have a kick start in life when you do go by having an insurance policy that clears every thing.  And by the way when I was negociating things it was a 35 Hour week as well, where Employers understood the need to protect their employees. 

WhatThe

I'm always irritated by Tory references to the "difficult decisions" they have to make. We all have difficult decisions to make. What an absurd excuse for their reckless policies. 

onebigvoice

What they also don't say is these people who become decision Makers or are contractors for the DWP and are Assessors, know exactly what the job entails.  They should be trained in the system and the charters used by the DWP and the laws because they are beingh paid the big bucks to do that job.
  All of a sudden they are asked to do something and its, I QUIT, or that's not in my remit?  Those excuses don't work any more as more are going to tribunals and realise the poor quality of the assessments given.

2oldcodgers

 onebigvoice said:

What they also don't say is these people who become decision Makers or are contractors for the DWP and are Assessors, know exactly what the job entails.  They should be trained in the system and the charters used by the DWP and the laws because they are beingh paid the big bucks to do that job.
  All of a sudden they are asked to do something and its, I QUIT, or that's not in my remit?  Those excuses don't work any more as more are going to tribunals and realise the poor quality of the assessments given.

I would argue against that. One of the reasons, in fact probably the main reason for 'bad' decision making/assessments is entirely down to the claimant themselves.
Completing  the claim form is an art that many fail to understand. So many poorly completed forms along with inappropriate evidence (or lack of it) will always probably result in a failure to secure a good and fair result. If claimants spent more time really understanding how to complete these forms and sending in only relevant evidence the decision would be better arrived at.
Claimants should get themselves educated before they put pen to paper!

Albus_Scope

But should claimants need to be trained in the art of DWP forms to receive the help they're asking for?  Surely if someone needs help and have given the correct information, they should receive it, no?  

onebigvoice

woodbine said:

2oldcodgers said:

 onebigvoice said:

What they also don't say is these people who become decision Makers or are contractors for the DWP and are Assessors, know exactly what the job entails.  They should be trained in the system and the charters used by the DWP and the laws because they are beingh paid the big bucks to do that job.
  All of a sudden they are asked to do something and its, I QUIT, or that's not in my remit?  Those excuses don't work any more as more are going to tribunals and realise the poor quality of the assessments given.

I would argue against that. One of the reasons, in fact probably the main reason for 'bad' decision making/assessments is entirely down to the claimant themselves.
Completing  the claim form is an art that many fail to understand. So many poorly completed forms along with inappropriate evidence (or lack of it) will always probably result in a failure to secure a good and fair result. If claimants spent more time really understanding how to complete these forms and sending in only relevant evidence the decision would be better arrived at.
Claimants should get themselves educated before they put pen to paper!

Evidence as such isn't essential for a successful claim in fact many claim and get an award with no or little evidence, my last review went in with no evidence at all as most of its years old. And I would question why claimants need to "educate" themselves many in fact are unable to do so.
Millions of people have managed to apply for sick and or disability benefits so evidence might suggest it's not as hard as you seem to imply.

  While it is hard to give a definative answer, I believe (and again my opinion) that many claimants have no idea of how the benefits system works let alone the forms to fill out for Disability, Long term sick, (whether your working or not) redundency, or pension entitlements and how they change when applied to Attendence Allowance, unless it happens to you.
  Why should they need to know?  The forms sent to you for what ever benefit you are applying for comes from the "experts" from the DWP who over the years have "tweeked" the forms to make it easier to fill out and get help.
  Why would you know what to do if you suddenly have a trauma in the house hold and you end up with a mental illness because you cannot cope after the loss of a loved one?
  Decision Makers and the contractors they hire to assess you for benefits are riggouresly trained to make life easier at a time when the last thing on your mind is financial support.
  To give you on an up date as to how the system works, I posted about my wifes claim for Attendence Allowance and had the DWP ring to say they received the documents sent.
  Today they rang again to stat that the person calling was comming to assess her next Tuesday at our home, and would bring all the necessary paperwork to fill out the forms for her and also to see if I wanted to become her appointee, and as he will be assessing at the same time he could get us both to sign the documents they require at the same time.
  He also stated that he will be bringing his ID and references with him to show the department he works in and to identify himself to us before we start.  He also stated that it is all informal and questions asked are to see if there is any further information we wish to add.
  At this time the DWP although started off a bit slow in sending the forms, have now gone up in my estimation as to helping my wife relax and attend the hospital appointements to fix her.
  Will post again about this after the assessment.  (also he has already stated his ID number and Name for next week)   
  Not all of us are Lawyers and Barristers to get the correct assessment and help, because we don't have to be. 

2oldcodgers

Albus_Scope said:

But should claimants need to be trained in the art of DWP forms to receive the help they're asking for?  Surely if someone needs help and have given the correct information, they should receive it, no?  

The claimant may well believe that they have given the DWP 'the correct information' and they may also believe that they handled the assessment correctly but the reality is that many claimants really don't understand what should be put on the claim form or how to handle themselves at an assessment.

Claimants MUST firstly understand what the form is actually asking of the them. 
Secondly they must put the 'RELEVANT' information on the form in such a way that the DWP have a clear understanding of the difficulties encountered.
As for evidence that just adds a bit more to the 'story'. It has to be relevant to the  question being asked. 

Albus_Scope

With all due respect, claimants shouldn't have to know how to correctly fill in the form to receive the benefits they're entitled to.  It should be up to the assessor to input the information correctly, with the information given to them by the claimant, that should be the whole point of the assessment. 

onebigvoice

  THIS WAS MY POINT EXACTLY.  The system is being evolved the wrong way round, ever since the Tory attitude of ALL claimants are out to get money for doing absolutly nothing but signing a form every two week to get dole.
  We know that if it were possible to get a job to earn that little extra we would have done so.  The system is if you are unable to work because of a sickess or disability, we will get you back in work doing something.  If more time and effort was spent in actually listening to the claimant when asking for help things would be a lot different.  
  Jobs being applied for to get other benefits are not what they are on the box.
22 hours, flexable shifts to suit your family life and working mum's, with clauses stating that if rooms are not needed then you have less hours, they are not gauranteed?  This week, 3 hours, last week, none, week before 5 hours, how can you claim Tax Credits with those hours?  This is not even minimum wage?

WhatThe

One of the reasons, in fact probably the main reason for 'bad' decision making/assessments is entirely down to the claimant themselves.
Completing  the claim form is an art that many fail to understand. So many poorly completed forms along with inappropriate evidence (or lack of it) will always probably result in a failure to secure a good and fair result. If claimants spent more time really understanding how to complete these forms and sending in only relevant evidence the decision would be better arrived at.
Claimants should get themselves educated before they put pen to paper!


This is the most unkind post I have ever read on the Scope forum   

WhatThe

OBV has posted a huge mixed bag of interesting topics and almost immediately this thread has descended into condemnation of the most disadvantaged people in society. 

This has really upset me. Closing the thread wouldn't be enough for me - I don't think any dyslexic person should have to read that post and I'd like it deleted. It's only half the story anyway - the rot set in at the DWP a long time ago.    

There are plenty of channels elsewhere to express such attitudes but they don't belong on the Scope forum. 
  

Albus_Scope

Hi @WhatThe if you feel a comment goes against our community guideline, could you please report the posts? 

WhatThe

Thanks

onebigvoice

We still see that many believe that they have received there decision without giving evidence?  I am sorry the reason for filling the form is to allow you to present your case for help.
  If you believe that you can get benefits without giving out any information then carry on.
  When for instance you fill out a claim for UC this is 6 benefits into one, you sign a disclaimer saying you agree to allow the DWP to use the information within the document by any other government department that may show an interest in the claimant.  This gives access to medical and financial records. (your bank Account) This allows departments to access a central computer where your information is stored.  Sickness benefits, housing allowance, Council Tax and descressionary housing Allowance, Employment support, Disability Living Allowance.  None has to seek permission to access since the UC covers them.  
  The DWP have already changed the way benefits are assessed, with the "new assessment being rolled out now.  I am not saying its easier or harder, but from what I have seen so far its fairer, which is all I have been asking for.

WhatThe

OBV, all my previous benefits data has supposedly disappeared since claiming UC..

And there are no documents with UC, no paper trail, no accountability - journal messages are deleted and statements about payments are overridden. 

The assessment hasn't really changed much. The outcomes have though as a result of the reforms in 2016 which we haven't got to grips with yet and unfortunately will disadvantage most working-age claimants   

WhatThe

It sounds like you've both been treated well, thank goodness. Any review should be straightforward because as you say, the information is on one system or another.

No-one signs on anymore. The notice boards with jobs are gone. Job centres are a big open-plan office for staff on computers. There are more security staff than 'customers' any time I've been in.    

Albus_Scope

@2oldcodgers as previously requested, please check your DMs and email.  Thanks. 

onebigvoice

WhatThe said:

OBV, all my previous benefits data has supposedly disappeared since claiming UC..

And there are no documents with UC, no paper trail, no accountability - journal messages are deleted and statements about payments are overridden. 

The assessment hasn't really changed much. The outcomes have though as a result of the reforms in 2016 which we haven't got to grips with yet and unfortunately will disadvantage most working-age claimants   

This was my point how can a benefit that supposed to make life easier for the DWP cost you money as when you add up the individual benefits they don't add up to the original amount.
  This nis because they say its a new benefits and some of the things don't apply.
  My answer leave me where I am then claiming 6 different benefits.
  If we are saving money then why don't we see an increase in our money for the savings or an increase in the turnover of claims sorted and placed onto the new system as its easier to input into mone central computer.

onebigvoice

WhatThe said:

It sounds like you've both been treated well, thank goodness. Any review should be straightforward because as you say, the information is on one system or another.

No-one signs on anymore. The notice boards with jobs are gone. Job centres are a big open-plan office for staff on computers. There are more security staff than 'customers' any time I've been in.    

  Now you are asked to attend a meeting at the "Job Center to discuss your options.
  When I went in to discuss the options of my cousin who was about to leave school they didn't even have access to his medical history or that he had been seeing anyone.

  But we supposed to be evolving and going forward in our job search.  just wondering what they now do in the Job Center in sending you for jobs or telling you what is available that suits your C V?