PIP claim 2nd time with new conditions
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Glad you asked @Dianaf !
I had the same question 🤔
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The Motability scheme was designed to help people with severely restricted mobility. That's why you need an Enhanced Mobility award to access it. That is easy enough for people who physically can't walk, as they get the full 12 points on the moving around descriptor.
However, having the mental capacity to pass a driving test and then responsibly operate a motor vehicle suggests that the claimant doesn't have such severe Daily Living requirements, or such severe OPD when planning & following a journey for example. It also suggests they have reasonable dexterity and grip in their hands, which means that they could physically prepare a meal and wash & clothe themselves. This is the type of assumption that PIP assessors can make if claimants don't clearly provide enough evidence when filling in the forms or at the verbal assessment.
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My thoughts exactly.
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On here it says "
When you receive your PIP decision letter,you can ask the DWP for written reasons as to why they made their decision. Asking for their reasons may help put forward your argument for a mandatory consideration as you could be able to challenge the reasoning. You should ask as soon as possible, as the process can take up to 14 days".I didn't know i could ask for a statement of reasons like for a tribunal decision. Should i ask for this? The DM has simply copied and pasted from the assessment report, some word for word. I don't think there was any looking at the claim and making their own mind up.
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Hopefully other users are not being riled-up by your insistence you don't understand. It has been explained, in tremendous detail, on your 32-page thread over on MSE.
To summarise/paraphrase the discussion on MSE for anyone becoming agitated/riled-up by this issue, here it is:
The claimant's licence to drive and actually drive can clearly negate their claims of being unable to undertake other tasks:
E.g.
claim: I can't grip pans to cook food due to arthritis in my hands.
statement: "Yeah, I drive."
reality: I am able to grip a steering wheel for prolonged periods - much longer than gripping a pan.
E.g.
claim: my arthritic feet prevent me from standing in the shower, so I have to use a seat.
statement: "Yeah, I drive."
reality: I am able to use my feet to operate the pedals in a car for far longer periods than would be required to stand in a shower.
It's the inconsistency of the claims being made v the skills/manual dexterity/cognitive awareness required to drive a car that cause the medical assessors/decision makers to question the veracity of some of the claims made regarding other descriptors.
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I do not agree with these assumptions made by health assessors, especially around dexterity and hand function. They are often inaccurate and deeply frustrating.
I have severe ulnar neuropathy (both hands)along with mild carpal tunnel syndrome with poor sensation from my radiculopathy. I struggle to hold a pan without it tipping at an angle, and I rely on adaptive cutlery just to manage eating. Even then, I can only get food to my mouth with so much difficulty,always spilling and I can’t properly grip a knife or fork-so unless someone helps me cut up my food, it’s nearly impossible.
Yes, I do drive, but I make sure to park in a safe place after 30–45 minutes to avoid my hands cramping or clawing further. The biomechanical alignment required for gripping a in powered steering wheel is completely different from the fine motor control needed to handle cutlery, hold a pan, or even pick up a bar of soap or cup your hand to hold liquid soap in the shower. I don’t understand how qualified healthcare professionals can overlook this and make such flawed assumptions.
At my first PIP assessment 5 years ago, I was actually denied support for this very reason. For my appeal, I brought in my cutlery, small items, and even had my son bring a dummy steering wheel to demonstrate in person. Thankfully, the tribunal doctor observed how much I struggled and I was awarded the benefit.
Just thought I’d share my perspective on how critical it is to recognise the difference in hand biomechanics across tasks.
(Sorry to barge in—just wanted to add my two cents!)
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I hear you @noonebelieves . I hear you completely. ❤️
The point is, you have detailed your situation in your application, explained how it is for you.
The OP, from what I can see (both on here and on MSE) just makes blanket statements, without the level of detail you (and many others) provide in regards to our limitations/impacts on our lives.
I'm assuming here, when questioned further regarding the statements, there is no real evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) provided by OP to allow the assessor/decision maker to weigh one statement against the other.
I think that's a different situation to yours (and hundreds of thousands of others) who can evidence the impact of their limitations to a standard to satisfy the assessor.
That said, so far as I can gather there was a period of time when assessors were allowing the fact that a claimant drives to override other evidence - perhaps you were caught up in that period of inappropriate behaviour? - but it does not appear from anecdotal information on sites similar to this as being an ongoing situation, other than where no other evidence of other issues is provided.
I hope that makes sense - heavy brain fog this evening! 😐️
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You raise a valid point @noonebelieves - one that has been discussed for many years. I find this link from 2016 shows insight, & is the one I mention to PIP claimants: https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/view/viewthread/10229/
However, I'm in complete agreement with @Girl_No1 - & at a loss as to why someone posts on 2 forums (yes, the other has a 'marathon' 32 pages; I just had to look) yet has been unable to take the great advice given onboard. You really do have to give detailed anecdotal evidence, not try to fit yourself into a PIP descriptor; some people, tho disabled, simply are not eligible for PIP, & giving so many 'inconsistencies' certainly wasn't helpful!
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Hi @chiarieds and @Girl_No1,
Thank you both so much for taking the time to offer further insight into this important issue. I truly appreciate you sharing the information about the 32-page advice previously given to the OP, and the rightsnet document was incredibly insightful(I’ve saved it!!) – thank you both for highlighting it. 🙏🏽
I sincerely apologise if I overlooked this prior advice when I added my post. My intention was simply to contribute to the hand discussion, focusing specifically on the assumptions sometimes made by assessors regarding hand function and past hurdles I went through as a PIP claimant due to that assumption.I understand that the circumstances of the OP are entirely different from mine…..And I absolutely agree with all the points you have both so clearly and thoughtfully articulated in relation to the OP's PIP claim. It's evident that the OP has already received a wealth of valuable advice (32 pages 😳), and as @chiarieds rightly pointed out, the current climate surrounding PIP & benefits is so volatile and “giving so many inconsistencies” is not helpful at all for our disabled and vulnerable communities who may not be eligible for PIP.
In this context, adding to any confusion is certainly the last thing I would want to do. I feel such deep empathy for everyone navigating the challenges of the PIP system and passionately support the fight for all our rights to be upheld towards being awarded the correct entitled benefits based on their functional difficulties.Girl_no1- brain fog 🌫️is my biggest enemy too , so I totally understand…. 🤗🥰
I have immense respect for all the expertise ,education and the insight provided on this lovely forum from member’s lived experiences and professional backgrounds, and I certainly don't want to cause any further unease or complication in any situation.Thank you again for taking the time to respond to me. Your input has only broadened my understanding and provided further valuable insight into this issue . Please continue the incredible work you both and others are doing in helping and supporting our fellow members on this wonderful forum. Everyone on this scope forum are making such a real difference.
Have a truly amazing day! 🤗✊
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I'm not riling anyone, i'm saying it as it is for me only. To rile would suggest deliberate and i'm only asking for advice for my claim.
On the point of driving, someone can drive 1 day a week and not drive the other 6 days due to pain or other issues. This does not mean they can drive all the time which is my case.
It's been said on the 'other forum' that being able to drive is a trap in PIP and i have asked how many of the 3.7 million PIP claimants drive?
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Again, you are ignoring the absolutely fundamental issue here: you as the claimant need to evidence via responses to descriptor questions why you cannot drive six days a week.
Simply saying you are "confused" as to why people are awarded benefits whilst being able to drive is either you being deliberately obtuse in order to rile-up others, or you are failing to understand the fundamentals.
Regarding 'the trap' it probably was a trap a number of years ago, but people have argued their individual cases that means it's now only where the claimant fails to provide evidence, via answers to descriptor questions, that an assessor/decision maker will use driving to extrapolate that other tasks are achievable due to the cross-over of skills between daily tasks and driving. Personally, I don't see that as an unreasonable conclusion for the assessor/decision maker to reach in the absence of contradictory evidence.
As others have said, if you are convinced of your entitlement then that is the direction in which to focus your efforts, as opposed to looking around at what other people have been awarded when you have zero knowledge of their personal circumstances/challenges/evidence.
And, with that, I'm out as this is mentally exhausting me.
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tifo, "My cholesterol is at 5 (2 years ago it was 5.5) and the GP says this is now considered high when previously it wasn't as they use different criteria"
Hello tifo. Can I reassure you that 5 isn't excessively high but below 5 would be ideal.
My reading last year was 9.3 (a reading usually associated with Familial Hypercholesterolaemia (FH) though not the cause of my high levels) so I've been prescribed statins to reduce those levels. I had no symptoms, I'm not overweight and I ate healthily.
A healthy diet is essential alongside statins to reduce your cholesterol levels..
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Also, tifo, if you're a coffee drinker then changing how you consume it will reduce your cholesterol levels even if you don't take statins.
Dump your instant granules and never use unfiltered coffee (percolated) - they are bad bad bad!
Only drink fresh filtered coffee.
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Had my appointment with Shelter yesterday and they won't help with the MR. They only help if there is chance of an award and while they think I can get some points it won't be 8 on either section for an award.
They think there is a chance of 3 points in the daily living. 1 point for activity 3(b) needing help with medication (eye drops), 2 points for activity 4(b) washing and bathing uses an aid (a stool to sit down and bathe).
They think there is the possibility of 2 or 4 points for activity 9(b) 2 points for prompting to engage with people or 9(c) 4 points needs support for engaging with people ONLY if the anxiety and/or OCD is taken into account BUT that this is unlikely without a diagnosis and treatment.
I agree with the above and add that if I got 2 points for needing help with eye drops like I got previously THEN I can reach 8 points (2+2+4) but I'd have to be very lucky for the MR. If not they said it'd be 3 points only.
However, I personally would say 8 points for activity 9(d) is possible WITH an anxiety/OCD diagnosis and ongoing treatment because I know how much I'm affected with the psychological distress but my claim needs a lot of work.
The Shelter lady agreed that the assessor saying having my partner with me at hospital appts means I'm ok engaging with people is the wrong assumption and that it means the opposite, i.e. I need the support. Which is what I say.
For mobility they don't think I'll get any points but I thought I have more chance of mobility points than care but according to them I'm close to a care award by updating my medical record but not near an award for mobility. Whilst my gout and osteoarthritis (OA) affect me they don't think it's in the majority. BUT this is by taking account of severe gout days only and not the moderate or mild days. Much like what the assessor did.
I say I should score (b) 4 points for can move 50 to 200 metres with mild gout/OA or (c) 8 points for can move 20 to 50 metres when moderate gout/OA or (e) 12 points for can move 1 to 20 metres when severe gout. Taking into account OA which is mild at the moment but occasionally moderate I'd realistically think I'd get max 8 points in mobility for gout but 4 points is likely. I don't use an aid, eg walking stick so I can't ask for 10 points for (d). Saying all this, I want to argue the maximum points I can get.
She even suggested possible 2 points for 6(b) dressing/undressing as sitting down can be seen as an aid (which I do with gout or OA episode).
There is the possibility of some points for planning/following a journey but again this is with a anxiety/ocd diagnosis and treatment as it's kind of related with engaging with people.
The Shelter lady didn't consider how I am compared to an able person and I brought this up, saying I can walk by limping with moderate gout or OA but it takes me double the time and I have to rest after a while.
She said I'm OK engaging with her but I said the rules/case law means engaging meaningfully with someone etc (this was in pipinfo and case law).
So ..... I can go for an MR myself and there is the possibility of 8 points for care with an understanding case manager if they take into account how anxiety/ocd affect me as my medical record is at the moment otherwise it could be 3 or 4 points only. Or more likely 0 points as most MRs don't change the decision.
Or ...... I can make a new claim. I'll talk to my GP for an anxiety/ocd diagnosis and go on a treatment plan then Shelter will help and there is a possibility of a lower care award and maybe a lower mobility award.
Having no medication for the mild OA doesn't help even though the GP said just use your gout medicines. At the moment it's not taken into account for anything.
I joked to the Shelter lady that I'll see her in 4 months when they give me 0 points again!
The advice is to make a new claim for the previously unreported conditions
afterseeing my GP (same as what some members say here). I said they (DWP) will think I'm making a new claim because I've failed with this one and she replied that the assessor doesn't look at previous reports until after the assessment, and they cannot say that these are not new conditions because they were not on the previous form, were not on the GP notes and were not considered in the claim, more proven by the complaint response too.0 -
I've today made a new claim for PIP and this time asked to complete it online, they've sent me a link to the form to complete within a month.
I've only had to do this because i didn't include anxiety and OCD in the PIP form or my GP record and they won't be taken into consideration. So it's to correct a mistake.
This thread and the advice in it will be useful and i'll aim not to make the same mistakes i've made in this last claim. I'm thankful to everyone who posted, regardless of their opinions.
I assume i can't make a new claim
andsubmit an MR for the previous one, not that i think it will make any difference? Might as well take the time loss of 4 months from the previous 2nd claim (December to April) and concentrate efforts on getting a new claim right than spend time on an MR and tribunal i think.0 -
Thanks for the advice, i don't drink coffee …. only brown tea.
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