Plato & The Polite Dictatorship Of Democracy
Dear All,
Plato once said democracy is a polite dictatorship. I was just wondering if people on this network have their own views about that statement and how it might apply and not apply to current UK society?
I have a hard time with rules - obeying them, understanding and to a certain extent the very nature of them. What are your feelings towards rules and how they apply to UK society and disabled people? Are we truly free? Or is life just one big illusion? I would like to gain an insight into your consciousness expanded everyone!
Kind regards,
Kyle
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As I read him, Plato described to me both the capacity and the (ultimate?) responsibility of power.
In my opinion power has forever corrupted.
Today cryptocurrency (and occasionally cash money) is how we communicate power and influence. How things can be "changed".
Rules (in my experience) are made to be broken. The trick is just finding a feasible line.
But without rules we have nothing and everything would fall apart.
We've all got bosses, many of us had parents who taught us how to behave. We're all adapting to things
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Thank you @Littlefatfriend - for responding seriously.
We do need rules, tho I may have railed against some in my younger days!
This is just my personal experience, but I found that you have to have knowledge, & increase your knowledge perhaps, in order to have a persuasive argument against a perceived viewpoint. It's not sufficient to feel you just 'know,' you need to have a reasoned way of showing how you came to a conclusion.
To me, knowledge can be power.
Life is amazing, & we have the 'power'/capacity to keep on learning.
Through knowing more we can hopefully help this community for disabled people & better support each other.
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@Littlefatfriend (Ha ha - what a name!) interesting. I spouse to a certain extent that if it is wealth that is the custodian of power in the modern world then it is extremely unstable as supply and demand is the foundation stone of modern economics today. Furthermore, do human beings know what they specifically want in terms of consumption or do they just go for what is cool according to their psychology of fitting in in terms of ascetics? Fundamentally, how does one lead a rich and fulfilling life that rides the waves of power for good and for bad? A higher power? Physical riches? Mental contribution? Emotional bonding? You can tell I stay up long nights thinking about nothing in particular! Ha ha ha
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Thank you Chiarieds, what power do you accumulate in terms of knowledge? What field in particular? Psychological rules/boundaries, physical boundaries and spiritual boundaries? Political, economic, social, technological, legal and environmental boundaries? Would love to know how you adapt to today's society as a disabled person? :)
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It is definitely a interesting question and one which I would have tosay that no we don't live in a democracy. We do have elections but once elected, the 'victors' can then do what they like until they are coming close to the next election. The UK has experienced a wide range of governmental styles but I think at the moment we are moving away from democracy (not intentionally as far as the public are concerned but amongst the political 'elite').
Democracy has probably always been something of an illusion but in the late 20th century it was less of an illusion than it is now. If I remember correctly the last absolute monarch was either Charles II or James II. (Charles was the last king to fully use his absolute power when he disolved parliament for years. It could be argued that he was more of an absolute monarch than his father but in between father and son, the country exchanged absolute monarcy for what was essentially dictatorship under Cromwell).
We moved to parliamentary government (with constitutional monarchy) in the transition between James II and William and Mary but it could be argued that it was probably more of an aristocracy/theocracy/oligarchy in that the real power rested with a minority who tended to be titled individuals and the church (which has at time held major power or little power). Even in the church, the aristocracy were dominant as the first son was the heir, the second went into the military and the third into the church and a lot of bishops would have fallen into the later sons of the aristocracy.
Whilst stating that the late 20th century was probably one of the most democratic periods in English history, the House of Lords and the Bishops did hold on but their power was limited and the House of Lords was losing power. It was in the 20th century that power devolved. Exch monarch in the 20th century became more of a head of state rather than a decision maker. Possibly Victoria was the last of monarchs who had independent power.
Through the 20th century we saw voter rights move from a limited number to almost all adults and those individuals exercised their vote. Not only that there were huge numbers who belonged to trade unions which also had significant power (I can remember when Question Time would have three politicians (one from each of the major parties) and a trade union leader. In that time there was also a significant change in the backgrounds of politicians and more MPs can from middle and working classes than at anytime in the country's history.
Towards the end of the 20th century and the early 21st century there has been a significant drop in the turnout for election. It started more at local elections (ironically the level where there is a greater influence on candidates/elected individuals, Parish and Town councils, get some of the lowest turnouts. Although I believe the lowest turnout actually still remains the Police and Crime Commissioners which has at times struggled to reach turnout in double figures). A lot of people believe that their vote doesn't really count because of the political system or because, once elected, politicians often do what they want rather than what they have promised and realistically there is no way to hold an MP to account until the next election. There are constituencies where polical parties have held huge majorities and the old boys network (or similar cliques) still are more likely to hold key posts.
I would suggest that currently we are living in an autocracy, although not as bad an autocracy as the US. Politics has moved away from policies to the cult of celebrity/leader and the current PM is accelerating that change, just not in such as obvious fashion as Trump. As someone who has belonged to two political parties and held positions in both (until each of them moved to the right of my beliefs), I had hoped that a Labour government would be elected which would be more focused on people, the environment and investing in both SME's and the green economy. I would say that they have ditched their principles but I'm not sure that some of them ever had any. I left the Labour party earlier this year because of their divisive attacks on minority groups within the UK, their failings over Gaza, and the fact that they seem as keen as the previous government on listening to corporations rather than people.
As I said at the beginning, I don't think we live in a democracy. Less people are voting in elections and, especially the higher up the political hierachy you go, the more elite the background of those post holders becomes (there is more of a London centric background rather than local individuals becoming candidates and elected members where it might have been gentry a century or so ago, with many being parachuted into seats. Voting has been made harder and people are being dis-enfranchised (although not as blatently as in the US), i.e. the percentage of voter fraud is so small that I think the number of individuals who have been sentenced for it barely gets out of single digits (certainly less than MPs fiddling their expenses) but the number of people who have been turned away from voting is thousands of times higher, at least. Devolution sees power not being distributed to the people but instead being devolved to an individual. I live in Suffolk and rather than have an elected body we are mvoing to a single Mayor for Norfolk and Suffolk, who will answer to the PM (if he has his way) rather than the public apart from around election time. Local government is due to be reverted to an almost identical model which was ditched in 1974. It is hoped that this will streamline services and remove a tier of councillors and executive County/District senior management to cover up the massive cuts that have been seem in central funding to local councils over the last 16 years.
Trump has shown us over the last year how easy it is to overturn the semblance of democracy which we enjoy and we think it can't happen here. However if one is to look at what has happened to democracy within the Labour Party since he became leader, it looks eerilly similar. Once elected leader the grassroots up democracy of the party was overturned. Constituencies democracy was curtailed, the constituency executives had ward representatives removed and votes restricted to about a few officers, topics were banned from being discussed at membership level and motions to regional or national meeting were not allowed on certain subjects, CLPs ability to select their own MP candidates was limited whereas the whole process was previously run by the CLPs, it was taken away and local candidates excluded from selection with many virutally installed by HQ (all knowing that their seat came from the leadership), long-standing members of the party were expelled if they spoke up and anyone who had held office under the previous administration being excluded. People were suspended from the party due to allegations during the selection timetable so they could not stand, only to have the investigation ceased or be cleared once the selection process ended. During the selection process for county seats, candidates were asked about their loyalty and commitment to the national agenda ahead of their county council priorities and candidates who did not declare loyalty did not progress. Stammer and his allies havecompletely reshaped the Labour Party more than Trump has changed America. If he does that to the Labour Party then he is likely to try to do the same nationally. Hence the reason why I think the limited level of democracy in the UK is being eroded more and more.
Additionally I never thought I would see the day when a Labour government would stope to play the Tory games of division, pitting groups against each other but their attacks on the disabled, transgender individuals, immigrants and those on benefits have been as starkly divisive as anything the Tories or Reform would do.
Sorry about the long response but it is an issue about which I feel strongely but I also understand that it is my personal viewpoint and others will have very different opinions and I have learned through my life that listening to others and being honest is key to finding common ground and positive outcomes. The biggest thing about community is embracing our differences and using them to find solutions/outcomes which benefit the majority rather than an elite minority.
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Im the same always struggled with authority my great sense for justice has got me in trouble especially in work place I know if the world went digital and we had to conform id be locked out of everything I used to believe we lived in a civilised democratic country was that my illusion ? Because I dont feel that now I feel a great darkness and the question is are we allowed an opinion anymore seems so many people eager to shut down each other without respecting we all observe and see things differently
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I'm pleased to join in chiarieds, thanks for raising an interesting question.
In my opinion you hit the nail on the head when you described the relationship between knowledge and power as conditional. The value of knowledge depends on the uses we may have for it and the quality of that knowledge. There are ever-growing pools of misleading and redundant information out there.
Certainly life is amazing, not least because it's so unlikely. The more I've learned has always increased my awareness of how much I/we don't know. Yet.
And hopefully we're learning in a positive way!
😇
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As you (almost!) asked KJEldridge97, in 1991 I set up my first email addresses. When I asked my mother what she would use, like a flash she jokingly replied "Littlefatfriend". She wouldn't mind my writing that she fitted that description well.
I was 6" tall and weighed about 12 stone, but people remember that email address!
That's the point of them and I've still got that address on many of the available services.
My mum deserves the credit.
🤣
The challenge of organising and controlling supply and demand is a key reason why wealth has become so concentrated in the hands of the few. Many of us shop in supermarkets, who ruined what came before them. Now Amazon and the interweb threaten them. Power and therefore money are fickle, fluid beasts.
Life in my experience is what we make of it, particularly in the imaginative fields you mentioned. One person's McDonald's is another person's poison!
My most useful and effective adaptations were all done bit-by-bit. Encouraging and "loving" myself into them. Exercises require practice and application in order to work best.
Here's to having ample spare time!
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Do you know the fabian society allowed woman the vote to get them into work and start breaking the family also between Boris sunak and starmer they have put 200 new members in house of lords ! Its like my favourite film Rosemary's baby when she says this is not a dream this is real i can feel the change all around me tbh covid never scared me but since labour got in I feel so so scared not even about benefit changes about All they want to implement and it is worldwide I can see it emerging and I feel like a caged animal in this country we are very civilised even people my family think im overreacting but I know in my soul this is not right
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In my experience concepts like democracy and monarchy are precisely that colejames, concepts. Like capitalism, socialism and communism they're imagined ideals, rather than practically feasible in the modern world.
As you wrote, we're a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy. But we don't accurately fit either description.
True democracy isn't practised in any country. Switzerland comes about closest with what it calls "direct" democracy, others are "full" or "working" democracies. Populations are now so big that allowing everyone to debate then vote on each subject would be impossible.
That's just the first hurdle, many others exist. Political advertising, misinformation, lobbyists, influencers of all sorts, and on and on...
History has been a very long time and many countries have conquered/been conquered by others. Governments are mostly the remnants of all sorts of approaches. We haven't ever had a "true" absolute monarch. There were always at least councils of sorts and the Magna Carta (1215) established the principle that the King is subject to the law.
In 1649 Charles 1 lost his head for trying it.
Throughout his working life my stepdad was a trade union leader. We'll miss them when they're gone!
Neither we nor the US are autocracies. A few exist today (both closed and electoral) and the number has been increasing. Populist governments, inequality and social discontent, the manipulation of information, the erosion of democratic norms and institutions... Various causes have been colluding in the "third wave of autocratisation" since around 2010.
At this stage we may only hope that the challenges of voter ID at polling stations here will improve with practice.
The mayor of Suffolk and Norfolk will be leaders of a Combined Council Authority, which will consist of elected councillors chosen from and by the constituent local councils. They'll all have been elected somewhere.
Trump in my opinion is an anomaly born out of financial inequity, prejudice, fear, and (most importantly in America) effective marketing. I doubt Starmer will change much of any consequence.
I enjoyed your long response thanks, this is mine!
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Can you imagine direct democracy here? Just look at the marvellous job Joe Public made of the Brexit vote!
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Hahaha, yep!
Imagine how long it would take to negotiate anything
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We would need to have Mr Banks and Mr Cummings on standby. They are full of eastern promise after all…
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If one assumes the electorate is inherently incapable of making informed decisions, that raises a more consequential question: who, in your view, should be entrusted with political power instead?
I am genuinely interested in understanding what model of democracy you actually envisage.
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Hi @KJEldridge97 - What I learnt hopefully helped not just my family, but others. It took several years overall. I found what I was looking for through research fairly quickly, & I had a bit of serendipity/synchronicity involved (trying to find if either word was appropriate took me down another wormhole, but that's 'learning,' or reminding myself of what I'd forgotten).
Anyway, at best I'd say I was fortunate to enter in discussion with a Dr in the USA, who was just beginning to find a few of his patients had both of the disorders I thought our family had. He was enormously supportive, & both he & his mentor helped me raise awareness of this here in the UK. I remember a UK neuroradiologist that had told me if I was correct, he'd eat his hat; I'd quite have liked to see that, but he seemed to be such a kind person!
I feel my little bit of knowledge helped, tho got frustrated that there seems to be so much acknowledged & discussed in the USA about these associated disorders than here in the UK.
I've said before on this forum, that likely things have been easier for me with finding out I have a genetic disorder, so I've grown up with it. I don't actually consider myself disabled, just a person who happens to have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. It's always been there, perhaps a part of who I am, but, at the same time, doesn't define 'me' in any shape or form; it doesn't limit me.
I gained no 'power' in knowing more, tho knowledge can change things.
I believe I share @Littlefatfriend 's concerns about misleading information, which is a bugbear of mine. Misinformation can, & does, cause harm.
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Thank you for your contribution @chiarieds. What is truth? Is it just numerous perspectives rolled up into one? Is it cold in its plainest and simplicity? Does it have any relation to emotions? Ultimately, what morals and subsequent ethics shape it? My priest once said 'You either tell the truth or stay quiet when you are forced to lie, but you should never lie'. Telling the truth unfiltered is one of the most hardest undertakings the human soul can do, lying on the hand is so easy in tense situations when people, emotions, etc… are all involved. Would love to hear your input further! :)
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We live in a world of lies we see it everyday on the news from politicians not all but alot i think the majority of the general public follow the rules made out for society it literally is rhe rat race im starting to open my eyes and my personal opinion is history the world as I know it has been a lie it was impossible to brain wash me through the education system I just didn't listen I wish I knew now what I didn't then I would if really tried to change my world to be less reliant on the state but I know in my heart my issues are to in grained I can see the divide between rich and poor becoming wider we are expecting millionaire politicians to have empathy or understanding of our plight they give us the scraps to keep us down speaking of democracy its fading and fast all politicians are actors who are more fearful of thier pay masters than us everything is a cooperation business money making scheme but we must keep fighting we must make mps understand thier families friends future generations will suffer under this new agenda nows the time to lose the fear and write to mps about everything Digital ID pip changes we will never get through to ministers but mps we can if we dont try then except whats coming because I cant I cant live a life of being controlled and I dont want that for my daughter no way
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