General Election 2017

WorksopChris

So why bother with voting? It's not as if young people, sick, disabled
or anyone else has fared badly during the last seven years, and no
reason to suspect that things will get worse if May wins June during the
next five years.

Obviously you are not one of the four close / at / below the official poverty line ... a mere 14 million citizens ... with every prospect of the numbers increasing.

Nor one of the 1.1 million citizens needing a food bank in the last callender year.

Austerity ? The worst is yet to come ...

Geoark

Hi @WorksopChris

You are correct I am not, and barring something going wrong my situation is likely to improve within the next 12 to 18 months. Your point being?

So your solution is for us all to go and stick our heads in the sand and wait for what is to come, because the one way to make the politicians listen is pointless?

That would be one solution for ensuring the Conservative party being returned with a larger majority and mandate to do what they want and ensuring the poorest in society continue to  suffer the worst from their austerity measures. After all it is what they have promised. But if that is what you want to continue advocating that is your privilege.

WorksopChris

Projected turnout ... say 40%

40% vote Conservative ... majority 50-100.

Therefore , an elected Government will a clear majority.

Less than 1 in 6 of voters eligible voted for the Conservatives.

When it comes to tackling the largest wealth gap seen since the Victorian age , allied with the almost total collapse of social care ( built on the foundation of 6 million carers virtually enslaved to the system under the terms and condition imposed ... Lord Kitch poster fully details this ) , which political party has a policy which does address this Issue.

Answer ? None ... not even scratching the surface.

In which case , 13 / 14 million close / on / below the poverty line are disenfranchised ... no party exists to tackle their concerns.

WorksopChris

Lord Kitch ?

https://community.scope.org.uk/discussion/33261/lord-kitch-recruitment-poster#latest

Put one of these posters up in every Job Centre.

Give everyone unemployed a straight choice.

Find a job or become a family carer. No benefits after one month.

Result full employment ... 77p per hour falling after caring for 35 hours ? ... some care 24/7 365 ... poster fully details what life will be like.

Geoark

HI @WorksopChris

I will give you that the poster is one of the best I have seen over the years but with some aspects of being a carer missing.

1. Some carers at serious risk of homelessness when the person they care for dies or the tenancy ends.

2.Just being a long term carer increases your chances of becoming long term ill, disabled and / or suffer from mental illness.

I also find it a bit disingenuous. Carers allowance is not payment for being a carer, ie a wage, it is an acknowledgement that carers have additional costs, much like dla and pip for the disabled. It is also likely that those who do get carers allowance also get at least one other benefit, esa or jsa along with housing and council tax benefits if they are not living with the person they care for.

Projected turnout ... say 40%
40% vote Conservative ... majority 50-100.
Therefore , an elected Government will a clear majority.
Less than 1 in 6 of voters eligible voted for the Conservatives.

I am happy to use your projected figure, though the lowest turnout was 57.2% in 1918. It was then above 71% until 2001 when it dropped just below 60%. Rising then to 66.1% when the conservatives managed a small majority.

Many of the gains for both the long term sick, disabled and carers have been eroded away in the last 7 years. We both agree that another 5 years with a strong Conservative majority would be a disaster for these three groups in particular.

You are right though, you are not likely to get what you want who ever gets in. Free travel for carers is free to the carer but would you suggest this is subsidised through local or national taxes?

The point is whether we like it or not the books have got to be balanced. and this is where the main differences in the parties can be found. So taking the two main parities, Conservatives will always punish the poor while rewarding the rich whilst Labour in general will look to support the poorer members in society while at the expense of the more wealthy.

So back to your projected figures. Less than 16.66% vote for Conservatives but they return with a majority. However 60% have not even bothered to vote, so the vast majority are not even bothered about the results, even though they potentially could have made a difference. With that much apathy though why should anyone care about what the 60% of the population think or want when they cannot even be bothered to stick an x in a box, or arrange a postal vote? Why should anyone care about the opinions or views of those who advocate people don't vote because they cannot get what they want, or those who listen to them?

Don't get me wrong, I do not necessarily disagree with most of your points and I am far from unsympathetic. However we have a first past the pole system, not perfect by any means but consistently there has been little support for any other voting system so it is what we are stuck with.

WorksopChris

Apathy ?

Biggest problem facing carers , consistently increasing as the vice of our lives increases.

No support . no political remedy , simply expected to care until we drop.

And yet , needed by the System to for almost everything else ... without our contribution , where does it find £ 132 billion to do the things it does ?

Without us , there will be a minimum of 6 miilion more citizens needing nursing and social care ... where would that money come from ?

No wonder the System keeps us carers in our cage , scraps to survive , no hope for any until the caring ends.

All workers are protected by Law ... professional careworkers as well ... family carers ?

Imagine ... all family carers elected to become careworkers ... follow through the consequencies .... and the death toll likely ...

Now , what would anyone call that System ?

Geoark

Sadly @WorksopChris that is what happens when you decided to stay silent when it counts.

Okay, so lets look at this differently, So what do you want?

Some we know

To  be treated like work dogs - but seriously as I asked how would you pay for this?

To be 'paid' a decent rate - okay how much per hour and for how many hours?

What support do you want?

Which exercisable rights enjoyed by others are denied to you?

No Union - unions play a number of roles here are the key ones

• negotiating agreements with employers on pay and conditions - You're not employed by anyone
• discussing big changes like large scale redundancy - your not employed
• discussing members’ concerns with employers - what employer
• going with members to disciplinary and grievance meetings - with whom?

All workers are protected by Law ... professional careworkers as well ... family carers ?  So what are the legal protections enjoyed by workers which you want for carers?

WorksopChris

A question that can only be answered by carers themselves.

Certainly the daily choice of either eating or heating for upto 2 million would be in the top 3 of priorities.

Main problem ? NOBODY knows who are carers ! Only 1 in 12 claim Carers Allowance after jumping through the hoops to claim it in the first place.

The rest ? Ticked the CARERS box on the 2011 census ... some 5.5 million ... caring for 35 hours or more a week , disabled caree requirements.

Identify carers first , then start to work on policies.

Ideal ? New CARERS Act defining status / rights / terms / conditions enshrined in law.

Then ,the 6 million carers would rejoin the people of this country who currently enjoy the Rights that carers are currently denied.

Cart / horse argument / solution.

Again , Lord Kitch details what 6 million carers are expected to do.

How many breaches can be listed when compared to workers for instance ?

Trade Union ? Carers are not workers , nor have they any weapon beyond ceasing caring ... what use would that be in practice ?

Whichever direction one looks , they are problems.

How financed ? Not our problem , thsat's a problem for society itself.

6 million " Slaves " ... that's the problem that nobody has a solution for ... or even wants to know about.

Welcome to CarerLand ...a separate society within normal society.

Want to join our ranks ?

Consider how easy it is to join our ranks following just one misadventure or illness.

WorksopChris

Breaches ?

A few :

Child carers , as young as 5 , used as primary carers.

48 working week ? I cared 24/7 365 for 10 years

Pay ? Minimum " Wage "  for carers ? 77p an hour. and , of course , it is not a wage.

Holiday entitlement ? None ... if I wanted a break , £ 15 per hour for a carer to replace me.

Sickness pay ? None ... if I were ever unfit to care , say in hospital of just 3 days ... charge of £ 15 per hour for 3 days when I came out.... a charge for being ill ???

21 Hour Rule ? Caring days to finish ? Still can't study for more than 21 hours to gain further qualifications which maybe needed to gain employment afterwards.and claim Carers Allowance at the same time.

Caree needing to go to doctors / hospital / anythere ? Public transport ... caree goes free ... carer , pushing wheelchair , has to pay full fare. Without the carer , the caree would be totally housebound.

Any other sector of society with beneficial terms and conditions like these ?

.... just a few to be going on with ....

Geoark

Disappointing but not surprising.

I was hoping that we could have an intelligent conversation but again it seems you are more interested in hyperbole than genuine discussion. Sorry but over the years I have heard too many people who prefer to moan about things and put down others who actually try to improve things but never do anything about it for themselves.

As chair of a non profit organisation there was a particular member who constantly moaned and 'promised' come the AGM he would do something about it. Yet year after year the AGM came and they never came. In the end during a conversation about something I told them I would the win the argument because I would be at the meeting to argue my point and they will not even bother turning up. I even offered to shake his hand if they did and take them for a drink afterwards. I won the argument because again he could not be bothered to turn up.

You complain about lack of union representation but when challenged accept this would not be appropriate.

You complain about the cost of travel for carers but challenged on how to pay for it 'How financed ? Not our problem , thsat's a problem for society itself.' Actually it is not a problem for most of society as you frequently like to point out. After all there has been a lot of support for government policy towards disabled people and long term sick among those who do vote, so why are they going to be bothered by their carers. Not nice, not right but reality.

You complain about the 21 day rule, but as you like to regularly point out many care 24/7, where are these magical number of hours to study going to appear from?

You want the same rights as workers, but accept you are not workers. But still you continue to use this type of terminology:

'Ideal ? New CARERS Act defining status / rights / terms / conditions enshrined in law.'

And to answer your final question: Any other sector of society with beneficial terms and conditions like these ? Yes the long term sick and disabled, try having a read around and seeing the terms and conditions they are subjected to which are enshrined in law.

I will say thank you for finally getting round to putting slaves in quotes. Nice bit of emotional language for what, when you come down to the basics, is something most people volunteer to do.

As I previously pointed out and you have chosen, not surprisingly, to ignore is that under the last Labour government things were starting to improve for carers, much of it now undone by massive cuts to council spending. Yet you still stick to wanting to encourage people not to vote so the conservatives can make things worse, easy to understand why you chose to join the conversation with a quote from a celebrated anarchist.

Please feel free to have the last word, unless you actually come up with something positive on how these issues can be dealt with I won't be responding again.

WorksopChris

Final word ?

I leave that to any readers who would care to join CareLand ....

Ignoring carers ? Yes , carers are used to that.

A separate world to your own.