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Stand and then move definition.

smithywill
smithywill Member Posts: 4 Listener
edited April 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hello,

I about to start process of applying for PIP, previously I have been awarded the higher rate of DLA which allows me to get onto the motability scheme.

I'm an above knee amputee and after looking online regarding people with similar disabilities it sounds like I have a chance of losing the higher rate. 

I had a quick question regarding some of the definitions in the PIP assessment guide: 

Standing: ‘Standing’ means to stand upright with at least one biological foot on the ground or without suitable aids and appliances.

Stand and then move: “Stand and then move” requires an individual to stand and then move independently while remaining standing. 

Now the part I'm confused about is the "while remaining standing" bit. 

I'd argue that under the definition above of "standing", to remain standing I am only able to take one step forward with my prosthetic. Once I start walking and put all my weight on my prosthetic side I no longer have one biological foot on the ground and am therefore not "standing". In theory this means I can only stand and then move a distance of around 1 metre which is about one step forward. 

Hopefully that makes sense. Might be a longshot but thought I'd see what others think.

Thanks

   

Comments

  • Sam_Alumni
    Sam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,682 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @smithywill
    I found this that may help?

    How the Moving around assessment criteria are being applied

    1.1          The Moving around activity considers a claimant’s physical ability to get around without severe discomfort such as breathlessness, pain or fatigue. The activity considers the claimant’s ability to stand and then move up to 20 metres, up to 50 metres, up to 200 metres and over 200 metres.

    1.2          Stand is defined as standing upright, with a least one biological foot on the ground, with or without suitable aids and appliances. A prosthesis is considered an appliance, so this means that a claimant with a unilateral prosthetic leg may be considered able to stand, whereas a bilateral lower-limb amputee would be considered unable to do so.

    1.3          In order to be considered able to stand and then move, the individual must be able to stand and then move independently while remaining standing. This means that individuals who stand but then must transfer into a wheelchair or similar device to move will not be considered able to move the distance.

    1.4          The activity also considers the use of aids and appliances to support the individual’s physical mobility – for example, walking sticks, crutches and prostheses.

    1.5          This activity looks at ability to move around on the type of surface normally expected out of doors on the flat, such as pavements and kerbs. The activity does not explicitly consider indoor mobility as we consider the sort of surface expected out of doors to be generally more difficult to move around on than indoor surfaces. In doing so we recognise that individuals who face barriers to mobility in their own homes are likely to face even greater barriers when outside.

    1.6          Consideration must be given to whether a claimant can carry out the activity, as described in the descriptor:

    ·       Safely – in a manner unlikely to cause harm to the individual or another person, either during or after completion of the activity;

    ·       Repeatedly – as often as the activity being assessed is reasonably required to be completed;

    ·       In a reasonable time period – no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a person without a physical or mental condition which limits that person’s ability to carry out the activity would normally take to complete that activity; and

    ·       To an acceptable standard.

    1.7          Factors which will be particularly relevant here are, but are not limited to, the individual’s gait; their speed; the risk of falls; and symptoms such as pain, breathlessness and fatigue. However, this activity only looks at the physical act of moving, factors such as danger awareness are considered by the Planning and following journeys activity.

    Scope
    Senior online community officer
  • smithywill
    smithywill Member Posts: 4 Listener
    Hi Sam, 

    Thanks for the response. 

    Yeah I've looked into the definitions and with me being a single leg amputee I feel as though points 1.2 and 1.3 conflict with each other. As once I start moving I am by their definition no longer standing as my biological foot is no longer on the ground. 
  • Sam_Alumni
    Sam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,682 Disability Gamechanger
    I can totally see where you're coming from! There are some examples on the link above but none of them are for an amputee.

    I hope @BenefitsTrainingCo can shed a bit of light on this for you!
    Scope
    Senior online community officer
  • Matilda
    Matilda Member Posts: 2,610 Disability Gamechanger
    It is possible to over-complicate what these definitions mean in practice.  At tribunal I was awarded 12 points PIP mobility, all for moving around, because they accepted that I could walk no more than 20m before I needed to stop and rest. (Only awarded 10 points at assessment because assessor made the preposterous extrapolation that because I walked 16m waiting room to assessment room, then I must be able to walk 20m - 50m!).

    I found that in general both my assessor and the tribunal wanted things kept simple.

  • BenefitsTrainingCo
    BenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,628 Pioneering
    Hi smithywill

    It's a good try but i'm afraid it won't work in the way you describe. This is because the test is to first stand and then move from a standing position and without sitting down. Whilst standing you have to have at least one biological foot on the ground but the word move is not defined in this way. So in simple terms the remaining standing bit is to exclude moving in a wheelchair (i.e. when not standing).

    This does not necessarily mean you will not qualify but you will have to focus on your walking ability with the prosthesis. I suggest you pay particular attention to the word reliably, described by Sam above in her post at 1.6. For example, does your prosthesis cause you pain (acceptable standard)? Does it mean you can't walk as often as you want (repeatedly)?

    David
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • lyndylou63
    lyndylou63 Member Posts: 30 Listener
    I get high rate motability as i cannot stand and move. I am in the process of applying for esa as my condition as worsened. As I now rely on a wheelchair and cannot go anywhere on my own do you think I will qualify for esa? I also have incontinence problems .
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,438 Disability Gamechanger
    You should by and large ignore current DWP guidance on PIP. It is mostly disconnected from what the law itself says. Better definitions are offered by the PIPinfo site. 
  • smithywill
    smithywill Member Posts: 4 Listener
    edited April 2018
    Hi smithywill

    It's a good try but i'm afraid it won't work in the way you describe. This is because the test is to first stand and then move from a standing position and without sitting down. Whilst standing you have to have at least one biological foot on the ground but the word move is not defined in this way. So in simple terms the remaining standing bit is to exclude moving in a wheelchair (i.e. when not standing).

    This does not necessarily mean you will not qualify but you will have to focus on your walking ability with the prosthesis. I suggest you pay particular attention to the word reliably, described by Sam above in her post at 1.6. For example, does your prosthesis cause you pain (acceptable standard)? Does it mean you can't walk as often as you want (repeatedly)?

    David
    Yeah didn't think it would work but looking strictly at the definitions provided I thought I may have a chance. 

    I think I'm likely to lose the higher rate but I'm more concerned about not getting the points to automatically get a blue badge (8 points) as this is something I definitely rely on. 

    I'm going to say I can walk between 20 and 50 metres as I feel this is fair. On days where I have a sore on my leg which happens fairly regularly I do try and restrict myself to shorter distances.  
  • lyndylou63
    lyndylou63 Member Posts: 30 Listener
    When I applied for a blue badge I had not heard of any benefits I could claim. At the blue badge assessment they told me about pip. So I already had a badge before pip. You don't always need pip to qualify.
  • smithywill
    smithywill Member Posts: 4 Listener
    When I applied for a blue badge I had not heard of any benefits I could claim. At the blue badge assessment they told me about pip. So I already had a badge before pip. You don't always need pip to qualify.
    Yeah I see that I can still apply for a blue badge even though I may not get PIP. But it is up to the council, hopefully being an amputee I should be able to convince them. Just don't want to risk it so would like to try and at least get the standard rate of PIP which I feel is fair. 

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