PIP, DLA and AA
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Hi, my name is shella! I had the tribunal today 18th April 2018

shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
edited April 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
Very Very Very long post and Vent warning
It was awful I just need somewhere to vent and I know I am not alone. I was a member on another site had to pay not complaining It was worth every penny cant afford it now. anywhoooo
I had prepared my case I found inconsistency between the assessors report and what the decision maker report I was not long winded just gave the facts plus I had done my homework and found out that its not about hoe long you can do something it can you do it safely continually in reasonable time there is more cant remember. that is what I fall into I also get lost a satnav does not count as an aid. so my argument was ok its not classed as an aid so does that mean that its void so can i say i need some else with me. blank stares......I was all ready to state my case when I went in the judge said we have read your papers thoroughly and know what your here for I hadn't even parked my bum on my walker/seat. your here to try and get more point I did not like the way he said it my hackles went up like the shields on the Enterprise

 i said no i am also here to state my case as i want to get the point across about the assessor and the decision maker report as there were a lot of thing i never said or did. he kinda shut up for a few minutes. then the doctor chimed in I actually found her questions fair and to the point and I answered. then it was the tern of the disability representative remember this is through my eyes she was a horrible person strange i stupidly thought that she would understand a disabled person better the the other members of the panel......ohhhh I was so wrong.

her questions so you say its dangerous to cook can you tell us why. I her the reasons what happen when I try and the burns that i have because of the pans. oh she said you can get light weight pans and you can get a potato peeler that is for disabled people oh and you can boil the potatoes and use a slotted spoon. I looked at her side ways in my mind i sware i could see her shedding her skin right in front of me. do you think you could use these. ....I don't know i would have to try and see as i don't know about these items you are talking about it you truly had read the bundle you would see that its not the only problems i have to deal with. so why do you think you cant have a shower in a tone of voice i did not like.

I said I don't think I can';t have a shower and i told her in great detail more detail than i wanted to. share went quite the judge had to have a go and not feel like a fifth  wheel as the women were giving his ego a right licking so his false smiley face turning to me and said so you say say you only go out maybe twice a week can you tell us why in your own words what you do when you are out do you go out for meals with your friends I was irritated by this as I had already explained in great detail how hard I find it to leave the house for just everyday thing people take for granted. i looked him straight in the eyes and said No and made it clear that i was not saying anything else on that subject. this went on and on me getting more irritated by the second and then it happened .....there she blows .....and i did i let them have it with both barrels i let them know that i did not appreciate the questions they were asking i told them i cannot be responsible for what my doctor chooses to do with the information i tell him if you truly had read the bundle all the question your asking me is in the bundle etc. my case is that i cannot do said activities safely repeatedly and within a reasonable time i did not come here to be given the third degree and treated like a criminal.

take a deep breath i said all of that in one exhale not good when you have lung problems. I think we should have a break. came back in was there for all of five minutes when they asked us to leave so they can decide. i went back knowing i had lost they were supposed to be impartial. then the bomb shell we will sent our decision by post.   ooouuuccchhhh...........i in no way saw that coming I just thought they would just say no and i would be on my way   uuuummmmmm but on the way home i had to giggle because of my out bursts they did not want to say no to me there as they thought i would kick off.
I will help as much as i can as i have been through it and have knowledge other people can use.
DISCLAIMER
I would like you all to know this was from my eyes and how i perceived what was happening.   

Replies

  • debsmitchdebsmitch Member Posts: 3 Listener
    That's absolutely disgraceful and well done for speaking your mind. Dont worry as there is a second tier tribunal and you can state the way you were treated. Good luck xo
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi shella and welcome

    Unfortunately you have misunderstood what a tribunal is for.

    The tribunal is not interested in the assessor or the decision maker and what they did or did not say do or record. Any problems you have with the assessor should have been dealt with as a separate issue with a complaint to the assessment provider. They are used to the shenanigans of the DWP
    The sole purpose of the tribunal is to ascertain how your condition(s) affect your functionality
    The questions posed by the disabled representative seem reasonable, aids can make doing some things  easier and you may not have considered them to help yourself.
    The tribunal members would have read your file and having done so would probably have questions that needed clarifying by you, this is why you attend the hearing.
    Tribunals are inquisatorial by nature, they need to ask questions to get answers in order to make decisions, from your post it sounds as though you haven't let them carry out their job

    I wish you the best of luck

    CR

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    debsmitch said:
    That's absolutely disgraceful and well done for speaking your mind. Dont worry as there is a second tier tribunal and you can state the way you were treated. Good luck xo
    There is no second tier tribunal. You can appeal to the Upper Tier Tribunal only if an error in law has been made by the FTT

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • debsmitchdebsmitch Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Oh sorry that's what I meant Upper tier tribunal. And I didn't realise that was the only reason that you could appeal. Thanks for letting me know. Much appreciated Deb
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    Hi shella and welcome

    Unfortunately you have misunderstood what a tribunal is for.

    The tribunal is not interested in the assessor or the decision maker and what they did or did not say do or record. Any problems you have with the assessor should have been dealt with as a separate issue with a complaint to the assessment provider. They are used to the shenanigans of the DWP
    The sole purpose of the tribunal is to ascertain how your condition(s) affect your functionality
    The questions posed by the disabled representative seem reasonable, aids can make doing some things  easier and you may not have considered them to help yourself.
    The tribunal members would have read your file and having done so would probably have questions that needed clarifying by you, this is why you attend the hearing.
    Tribunals are inquisatorial by nature, they need to ask questions to get answers in order to make decisions, from your post it sounds as though you haven't let them carry out their job

    I wish you the best of luck

    CR

    I misunderstood nothing,  I was putting doubt on the reports the assessors and the diction maker wrote. the fact that they did not want me to go through my papers on that subject  I which was successful..
    Getting back to the questions. the bundle also had in great detail on how the disabilities effect my everyday life I left nothing out. A lot of the questions asked were in the bundle i was not allowed to look at my paper work my friend was told not to help me. It wasn't only the questions it was how they were presented. and with the tone of voice. they kept repeating the same questions over and over again but in different ways. they were nit interested in how it affects me they were only interested in how far i can walk without stopping,can you  have a shower, can you do you gardening. there was no scope to explain so i made sure i explained in
    detail I went through a step by step account they tried to stop me i knew if i didn't i would be railroaded . I know what it is like in a criminal court  supporting people. and I am telling you this was no different i know they would have to ask questions. invasive questions embarrassing questions I was fine with that i didn't like was the tone of voice and the repeating questions.

     "Tribunals are inquisatorial by nature, they need to ask questions to get answers in order to make decisions, from your post it sounds as though you haven't let them carry out their job"

    Please explain what you mean by this. The tribunal got all the information they needed do you think I am the only one that got frustrated and kicked off, these people are professionals and know what they are doing.
    I was telling what happened on the day thorough my eyes please don't make the mistake and think I have no respect for the tribunal.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I completely agree with CR here, sorry. I think you've completely misunderstood what a Tribunal is all about.

    This is what you stated....
    no i am also here to state my case as i want to get the point across about the assessor and the decision maker report as there were a lot of thing i never said or did.

    The Tribunal wouldn't have been interested in what happened at your assessment. They are there to hear how your condition affects you daily and nothing else.

    I wish you good luck.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    Ifpoppy123456 said:
    CockneyRebe

    This is what you stated....
    no i am also here to state my case as i want to get the point across about the assessor and the decision maker report as there were a lot of thing i never said or did.

    The Tribunal wouldn't have been interested in what happened at your assessment. They are there to hear how your condition affects you daily and nothing else.

    I wish you good luck.
    I disagree with what your saying you have based your interpretation on what I was asked and what I answered I was asked a question and I answered it truthful. I got my information from The Social Security (personal Independent Payments) Regulations 2013. and the Appeal to the Social Security and Child Support Tribunal. Additional material, pages from internet and I chose what I needed. I am not stating that I am right I did what was best for my situation and I chose to go to appeal with facts of the discrepancy between the assessor and the diction maker as a door way to get to the tribunal.that was the hardest part after that there was no paperwork as I just went by what I wrote in my PIP form. this was the way I chose to go and know I read your opinions and mulled it over and I strongly disagree I even put a disclaimer notice at the bottom so that people will know that this is what happened on the day. one of you stated that you agree. you have the right to your opinion and I hold no malice but I will fight my corner if I believe in something strongly. I went a different route I keep saying that I know what the  PIP tribunal is for. 



  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    I am really happy for you, congratulations

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • susan48susan48 Member Posts: 2,229 Disability Gamechanger
    Fantastic news , well done 
  • debsmitchdebsmitch Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Congratulations Shella that's great news x
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    You rock! Congratulations 
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    Thank you all who have commented and congratulated me I feel very welcomed 
    I will try and help as I want to pay it forward. 
  • april123april123 Member Posts: 137 Pioneering
  • GizmoTiddlesGizmoTiddles Member Posts: 129 Pioneering
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    shella,

    That's such fantastic news, well done! It's nerve-racking facing a tribunal like that. I've also been in hearings where the disability member is the opposite of sympathetic, and it's very hard.

    Just coming back to the evidence issue - it absolutely is the tribunal's job to weigh up the evidence. If there is inconsistency between different pieces of evidence, they should explain how they come to their conclusions. For example, in your case it looks like they have ended up giving more weight to your evidence than to the assessor's evidence, which is great. As far as that goes, you did exactly the right thing in pointing out the inconsistencies. 

    I think what Poppy and CR mean is that the tribunal isn't the place to complain about how terrible the assessment and the assessor's report is - as CR says, that would be done via a separate complaint to the assessment company, and may well be worth following up. You could consider going to your MP too (as I always say here, we need to keep pressing for these assessments to be reformed).

    But that wasn't what you were after at the tribunal - you were after the right result, and you got it. Part of the tribunal's job is to consider what evidence to take into account, so it can be relevant to undermine the report by pointing out its inconsistencies etc (although believe me, CR is also right that the tribunal will be used to how terrible the reports are!)

    The tribunal do often ask questions about things that you've already commented on in the appeal papers - and that can be really triggering because it feels as if you are not being believed. But what they should be after is a thorough examination of what you can and cannot do - and you are right that when they look at that, the issues of safety, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a reasonable time are very relevant. Another thing that can be upsetting is that, in a way, they are not interested in how your condition affects you EXCEPT within the PIP activities (washing, cooking etc). It's their job to just look at those activities and the points scoring system.

    When it comes to questions about aids and appliances, these do have to be considered as it affects the points scoring. You gave honest answers and as you were thinking at the time, you have so many problems with other activities that even if appliances could help, you should still score enough points. 

    It's quite common in situations like this for the tribunal not to give their decision straightaway and I think that is probably a good thing, as it allows them a bit of space  - after all, they are supposed to be impartial as you say. I'm just really glad that the judge was able to realise, from your written and verbal evidence, that the assessor's report wasn't reliable & that the points scoring should come mostly from your evidence. If you've asked for written reasons for the decision, you might see more about this (though you don't have to get the reasons if you are happy with the result).

    The changed decision doesn't result in any consequences for the assessment company though, which is why, as CR suggests, you could complain. Finally, if you are unhappy about the attitude of the panel members you could make a complaint (you do that by writing to the regional tribunal judge), but I'd suggest that you wait til you get your money, just in case the DWP decide to seek permission to appeal further (I really hope they don't).

    Well done Shella. You really deserve this outcome.

    Will

    The Benefits Training Co:
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    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    shella,

    That's such fantastic news, well done! It's nerve-racking facing a tribunal like that. I've also been in hearings where the disability member is the opposite of sympathetic, and it's very hard.

    Just coming back to the evidence issue - it absolutely is the tribunal's job to weigh up the evidence. If there is inconsistency between different pieces of evidence, they should explain how they come to their conclusions. For example, in your case it looks like they have ended up giving more weight to your evidence than to the assessor's evidence, which is great. As far as that goes, you did exactly the right thing in pointing out the inconsistencies. 

    I think what Poppy and CR mean is that the tribunal isn't the place to complain about how terrible the assessment and the assessor's report is - as CR says, that would be done via a separate complaint to the assessment company, and may well be worth following up. You could consider going to your MP too (as I always say here, we need to keep pressing for these assessments to be reformed).

    But that wasn't what you were after at the tribunal - you were after the right result, and you got it. Part of the tribunal's job is to consider what evidence to take into account, so it can be relevant to undermine the report by pointing out its inconsistencies etc (although believe me, CR is also right that the tribunal will be used to how terrible the reports are!)

    The tribunal do often ask questions about things that you've already commented on in the appeal papers - and that can be really triggering because it feels as if you are not being believed. But what they should be after is a thorough examination of what you can and cannot do - and you are right that when they look at that, the issues of safety, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a reasonable time are very relevant. Another thing that can be upsetting is that, in a way, they are not interested in how your condition affects you EXCEPT within the PIP activities (washing, cooking etc). It's their job to just look at those activities and the points scoring system.

    When it comes to questions about aids and appliances, these do have to be considered as it affects the points scoring. You gave honest answers and as you were thinking at the time, you have so many problems with other activities that even if appliances could help, you should still score enough points. 

    It's quite common in situations like this for the tribunal not to give their decision straightaway and I think that is probably a good thing, as it allows them a bit of space  - after all, they are supposed to be impartial as you say. I'm just really glad that the judge was able to realise, from your written and verbal evidence, that the assessor's report wasn't reliable & that the points scoring should come mostly from your evidence. If you've asked for written reasons for the decision, you might see more about this (though you don't have to get the reasons if you are happy with the result).

    The changed decision doesn't result in any consequences for the assessment company though, which is why, as CR suggests, you could complain. Finally, if you are unhappy about the attitude of the panel members you could make a complaint (you do that by writing to the regional tribunal judge), but I'd suggest that you wait til you get your money, just in case the DWP decide to seek permission to appeal further (I really hope they don't).

    Well done Shella. You really deserve this outcome.

    Will

    Thank you so much as you kinda understood what I did but what Poppy and CR are not understanding is that I did not go there to argue the case of the inconsistencies I was ranting and vexed it wasn't a post about what to do how to do it etc.  I went there to get the points I thought i should have been given in the first place. I was asked a question and answered it the post I wrote from my eye view of that day warts and all I understand that they were trying to make sure the information is correct when other people  read the post. maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post I can accept that as it was a rant. I did not go there thinking that I would argue the case with the evidence of the DM and TA. but I was ready if they did. I did all the paper work as if I was having a paper hearing a lot of work and trying to understand PIPanese . was a pig I also did it that way so that if the DWP tried to overturn the tribunals decision It would be difficult. not impossible but difficult. so now I wait.
    yes I am a bit sensitive when people misunderstand my intentions with what I have written. so I thank you again. I was awarded more points  than I expected.
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    BenefitsTrainingCo 
    I owe you an apology I thought I read your post but realize I hadn't read all of it I am very glad at the outcome I complained about the way the assessor behaved  i did not just complain about what i thought she did wrong I also praised her for what I thought she did right. and at the bottom explained what they could do better in the future. I did get a reply they apologized in a very carefully worded letter. I did'n't take it further As for the tribunal when I left the tribunal i had decided not to make a complaint .AS I know myself I was stressed out to the point of madness and I was glad it was all over one way or another I was convinced I had lost and complaining would not help I felt the wound would just get bigger and fester. there are times in life when you just have to let go.
    thank you for your reply It was very helpful
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