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Further Evidence and the responsibility of requesting it.
Yadnad
Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
Over the past 5 years since I started on the PIP roadway it has never been clear to me as to who is actually responsible for gathering further evidence to assist the assessor.
In the first instance when completing the PIP2 you are asked to send evidence in that you already have to hand.
Then looking at the assessors' guide it clearly states that if they want further evidence that would help them complete a report then they would get it.
Indeed on the claim form you are asked to give full details of who these people are that could provide this further evidence.
I'm not saying what actually happens but what should happen.
In the first instance when completing the PIP2 you are asked to send evidence in that you already have to hand.
Then looking at the assessors' guide it clearly states that if they want further evidence that would help them complete a report then they would get it.
Indeed on the claim form you are asked to give full details of who these people are that could provide this further evidence.
I'm not saying what actually happens but what should happen.
Replies
There are very specific and limited circumstances in which the HCP might consider getting additional evidence and there’s neither a mystery or any contradiction about it. It’s set out at para 1.41.1 in https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/684001/pip-assessment-guide-part-1-assessment-process.pdf#page15
Additionally they should consider evidence handed to them at the assessment. At my last assessment when I tried to do that they handed it back to me without reading any of it telling me that they don't deal with that - that's the back office's job.
If a claimant brings further relevant evidence to a face to face consultation which is not already on PIPCS, the HP should always take a copy of it and consider its relevance when completing their assessment report. The copy of the evidence should be sent to the CM with the completed report.
At the end of the day I can only send what evidence I hold at home which as you rightly say is my responsibility to send it to them. The DWP clearly say that I should not ask for any additional evidence or pay for it. They even go so far as to say not to send any evidence in that was sent in with the last claim and that any evidence should not be older than 24 months - on that point I now understand that I have to ignore both of those statements.
Are you actually saying that I should be proactive and seek out further relevant evidence to confirm the difficulties I have even if I have to pay for it?
It's really confusing. It is being said that I have to ignore what the DWP say.
The claimant provides everything. I get that.
They didn't contact anyone on the further info list on my form, so I deemed that as they didn't need further info because they had it.
Since they tell you not to pay for anything you don't have I didn't, however that did Imo run an element of risk of them not bothering to contact anyone on that list. If they don't they are taking your word for it that these people even exist.
I don't know why you would need to bring evidence to the assessment? Surely that's all gone in with the forms. If it's a review you have had time to gather what you need because you have an end date.
The people listed on your claim pack will never be contacted unless any of the conditions set out in the provider guidance are met.
Thanks Mike I do fully understand what you are saying - I'm just trying to equate what the assessor is supposed to do according to their instruction book as with further evidence supplied at the assessment and what actually happens.
In my case this was a report from the hospital in that they assessed me on their machine as not being able to walk more than a few yards safely.
My story is fine, but that is all it is a story. I could be the biggest liar in the country or someone that continually under plays their difficulties. Surely some proof is needed apart from what I say to show that I am a credible claimant?
It was both a re-assessment for PIP in 2015 and a review in 2017.
Not everything is as black and white as you suggest. All of my medical issues continue to be treated one way or another. The report I mentioned was one that had been sent to my GP only a few days before the face to face assessment. It was a factual report setting out under test conditions how my spine, pelvis and hips performed on a walking machine in the hospital using different gradients and speed.
It backed up completely my 'story' as to the difficulties I have when attempting to walk anywhere. They didn't read it but they should have as per their own instruction book. The result of that re-assessment was that the assessor suggested that I could walk between 50 and 200 metres using an aid. The report said that I could only walk a few metres safely and no more than' 10 metres without falling off the machine.
When I sent it in to the DWP with the MR application they changed their decision to give me enhanced mobility. At the same time I told the DWP to read the 3 page report from my GP together with the Social Services assessment again which was sent to them with the re-assessment form. They must have done as the increased the Care award from standard to enhanced as well.
The dwp don't understand their own forms since those with MH problems are being looked at again, all 600,000.
PIP will end up like DLA did with courts ruling so much that the DLA rules that the government passed become so wide open. DLA ended up nothing like what the government intended it to be.
Was it not for MH problems then? That's harsh.
Yes, they're supposed to seek evidence from your listed medical people, but: https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/the-pip-files-dwp-documents-show-absolutely-shocking-failure-on-further-evidence/
The DWP expected that the assessors would need to request further evidence in about 50% of cases. ATOS and Capita have fallen *way* short of that, particularly recently .
Also, further evidence you bring to your assessment should be copied, read by the assessor, and sent on to the DWP. Their own guidance says so. Often they don't know that, but hey.
Finally, the assessors are supposed to read your forms and all your further evidence before the assessment. This info should be referenced in their report. The DWP Case Managers should do the same. If they haven't, that's a good way to get the assessment report thrown out.
Did you record the assessment, by any chance? Did anyone take notes? Did you have anyone with you? These things might not make much of a difference. They often argue that it's your (and your friend's) word against the HP's, so there's no way to resolve it.
If you want to ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration and/or appeal, this is what you need to do:
1) Take this test: http://www.mybenefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php . Remember to focus on how your function is affected by your conditions for each of the questions. If the test says that you should get an award:
2) How long ago did you get the decision letter? If it was less than a month ago, you can donate Mandatory Reconsideration (which probably won't help, but which you have to do to be able to appeal). If it's been longer than a month you may still be able to get an MR. Ask for details on the forums.
2) Take a look at each of the activities, and see whether you explained how your conditions limit your function for each activity, and whether you can link any of your further evidence to what you say.
Remember, your actual diagnoses don't really matter! It's all about how your function is affected. So, instead of writing: "I can't prepare and cook a simple meal without assistance because I have osteoarthritis", write: "My osteoarthritis makes it impossible for me to hold cutlery tightly, so I can't cut up food in preparation for cooking. I need someone else to do this for me. This is the case on 90% of days. I occasionally (10% of days) have a good day (weather, temperature, rest, medication), and can prepare food for cooking by myself." Make sense?
Could you write your application better, knowing this? If yes:
3) Call and ask for a copy of your assessment report (PA4). Follow up with a letter (recorded delivery is best).
4) The definitions of words used by the DWP are very specific, and the details of how they score things are complex. If you can get some help, I would. Even with help, I'd suggest joining the benefitsandwork website. £20 for a year, amazing guides for how to do everything, and great forums, with a fairly expert mod answering questions. Their guides give advice for MRs, appeals, challenging the assessment report, etc.
Which activities do you disagree with them on? Start writing them up. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. I know a bad assessment and 0 points is incredibly aaaaargh!!, but you won't get more points by writing down everything they did wrong in the assessment/report. Prove the points you think you should get.
5) Once you get the report, see if there's anything wrong with it. It sounds like there should be, given your description! If there's enough wrong to challenge the report, you can do that in the MR, or when appealing to a tribunal. This may result in you being called for a new assessment, btw.
That should be enough for now! Keep an eye on those deadlines....
Thanks for your support and guidance it means alot. You have been really naughty but who can blame you when their reports are incorrect. I asked the assessor to watch video evidence of me before, during and after a tonic clonic seizure, she point blank refused. If she had seen this she would had seen how bad my seizures effect me. My daily tasks all comes down to safety of me and my son. For example not been able to use boiling hot pans and the oven when making a meal because of the consequences should I drop to the floor and have a seizure which is happening alot with no warnings. I wish I would have taped mine because it would prove that I was not asked relevant questions concerning my illness. I was asked not many of the questions however the assessor has answered them. As for the computers been down this affected many others who were assessed at the same time as me. How can it possibly be a FAIR assessment when important evidence could not be accessed. I am still awaiting a response from the complaints department I will just see what they say.
Thanks again and good luck with your PIP.
So, the evidence you sent in at a late stage of your claim could, mad as it seems, be rightly disregarded if DWP believe they already have enough information to make a decision. This makes sense because you have to draw a line somewhere and make a decision. Claimants could send in a new document once a week forever more if that were not the case.
The MR process then worked correctly for once and took your document into account and realised it couldn’t be squared with the HCP report. The only thing wrong in your case is that when your report went to the DWP originally they should have sent it to the assessment provider. This is because provider guidance says they should not do functional testing if up to date functional information is available. Your face to face ought to have been only a chat and should not have included any functional testing.
As much as anything then you appear to have had to go to MR simply because your document went to DWP too late to influence the decision and too late to be forwarded to the provider.
Thank goodness I retired when I did (2008) from public service. If what you are suggesting is actually happening my conscience would not have allowed my staff to make ANY decision without reading ALL of the evidence and information. And should new information come in after that decision had been made then again I would have expected that the original decision would have been reviewed for as many times as was appropriate.
As the Service allows any evidence received at any time that throws light on possible past fraudulent activities to be used, likewise my attitude that the same level of responsibility should be given to late new evidence to be used to question if the award should be higher without the claimant having to ask for it.
There is/was a rule that an officer should always strive to ensure that the decision is accurate and that it remains so.
Let’s say for arguments sake they do as you say. Based on my experience of what happens on the day of tribunals when people bring extra evidence in, I would estimate that the length of time of any assessment would then be doubled from 30 minutes to an hour. That would halve the number of assessments in a day. To put that into perspective ATOS/IAS are currently booking appointments on both days of every weekend to clear the backlog!
However it is part of the contract that ATOS accepted. To just say that it would take too long to do that 'so we will ignore it' is plainly wrong. Personally I would expect ATOS to increase the number of assessors and reduce their bottom line profit if they want to be taken seriously.
At the end of the day the DWP inserted that rule for the assessor to follow and as such I for one expect them to follow it. Personally I don't care how they do it, all I want to see is a following of what is expected of them. Indeed if a claimant was of a similar mind and decided not to carry out an action because it was 'too protracted' I do wonder how the DWP would deal with it.
But hey I am probably over expecting miracles when it comes to these assessors.
How wrong I have been. Filling the form in has nothing to do with the DWP or the assessors it is the Tribunal that you have to worry about.