PIP, DLA and AA
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PIP isn't as fair as DLA!

LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
I used to be on DLA Indefinitely, but recently was switched over to PIP and although I got the same award it's not indefinite, which means I have to go through another stressful assessment etc in another 4 years time even though my spinal condition isn't going to get any better! It seems so unfair - is anyone else in the same boat/have advice? 

Replies

  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @Ladypetal From one pip claiment to another consider yourself lucky, the govenment is completely fudged up at the moment. Theres people who cant walk having their claims stopped if you do some research you'll realize how unfair they are being to the disabled right now, theres been more appeals then ever this year its crazy and assessors have been caught out lying. I'm sorry non of this is good news, this can happen to any of us and injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere as martin luther king said but pip doesnt see it that way. All i can do for you is give you some very good advice... ask for permission to record any assessment you have in the future to do this you must ring them before hand and they will let the assessor know, if you do this you wont be kicked of your claim or have any worries of it being reduced and believe me when I say this is happening everywhere. Hope you take this advice.
  • Maria1971Maria1971 Member Posts: 3 Listener
    I am so sorry this is happening to you. My own circumstances that they have refused are unbelievable and I have also heard of others too.
    It's about time we took a stand and now I have my voice back I will stand with you.
    Life shouldn't be like this and you shouldn't either!
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    You haven't been switched over. DLA ended and you were asked to apply for pip. Everyone is having to apply.

    @Madworld
    I don't think telling a poster that if they record their assessment they won't lose money is safe advice. 
    In fact that's really scary advice! 

    It's been suggested that all claims will be recorded in the future, but there was a discussion on here that this isn't going to assist you with getting your claim if the assessor and DM decide not to award you?

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3755-25-april-2018-update

    No timescale for it by the looks of it. 


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  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @whistles if you intend to prevent any lies being written on your report then its good advice and completely legal as stated on the PIP website. Recording the assessment is completely fine if requested before the assessment, and looking at how many people have been failed this way I think its very good advice. @Maria1971 I agree with you completely and thankyou for your support, I think if we all stand together in this we have more of a chance to stop it happening. Seriously disabled people are having their rights stripped away daily, something must be done. Thankyou both for your response 
  • LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
    Maria1971 said:
    I am so sorry this is happening to you. My own circumstances that they have refused are unbelievable and I have also heard of others too.
    It's about time we took a stand and now I have my voice back I will stand with you.
    Life shouldn't be like this and you shouldn't either!
    whistles said:
    You haven't been switched over. DLA ended and you were asked to apply for pip. Everyone is having to apply.

    @Madworld
    I don't think telling a poster that if they record their assessment they won't lose money is safe advice. 
    In fact that's really scary advice! 

    It's been suggested that all claims will be recorded in the future, but there was a discussion on here that this isn't going to assist you with getting your claim if the assessor and DM decide not to award you?

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3755-25-april-2018-update

    No timescale for it by the looks of it. 


    whistles said:
    You haven't been switched over. DLA ended and you were asked to apply for pip. Everyone is having to apply.

    @Madworld
    I don't think telling a poster that if they record their assessment they won't lose money is safe advice. 
    In fact that's really scary advice! 

    It's been suggested that all claims will be recorded in the future, but there was a discussion on here that this isn't going to assist you with getting your claim if the assessor and DM decide not to award you?

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3755-25-april-2018-update

    No timescale for it by the looks of it. 



  • redhead53redhead53 Member Posts: 35 Connected
    you can record but it wont alter the result as its you the acess not your voice

  • LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
    Thanks guys, I am still on  DLA 'til May 9th, then payments will be switched to PIP. (which I obviously had to apply for Whistles). I just wanted to know why PIP hasn't made my award Indefinite (where as DLA system did) and my spinal dis; isn't going to get better alas. Any advice (re the Indefinite part) would be helpful, and good luck to you all too x
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Madworld said:
    @whistles if you intend to prevent any lies being written on your report then its good advice and completely legal as stated on the PIP website. Recording the assessment is completely fine if requested before the assessment, and looking at how many people have been failed this way I think its very good advice. @Maria1971 I agree with you completely and thankyou for your support, I think if we all stand together in this we have more of a chance to stop it happening. Seriously disabled people are having their rights stripped away daily, something must be done. Thankyou both for your response 
    But you have written that people will not lose money.
    How can you possibly know that recording it means they keep their PIP at the rates already awarded? 
    It's an assessment based on how you are at the assessment- include here paperbased evidence. 

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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Ladypetal said:
    Thanks guys, I am still on  DLA 'til May 9th, then payments will be switched to PIP. (which I obviously had to apply for Whistles). I just wanted to know why PIP hasn't made my award Indefinite (where as DLA system did) and my spinal dis; isn't going to get better alas. Any advice (re the Indefinite part) would be helpful, and good luck to you all too x
    Because it's not DLA. Different benefit different lengths. I think they can award up to ten years. 
    But if you cast your mind way way back, the original DLA length was short. Mine was and then they lengthened it.
    My circumstances might improve/ be the same or get worse by the next assessment.
    Yes you spinal issues won't get better, but they are not assessing that, they are assessing descriptors. So if you worsen, you might move to enhanced. 

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  • LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
    I don't understand what you mean by descriptors? I am going to get the same amount financially on pip as I did on dla and am already on enhanced too. I just don't think it's fair that I have to reapply again after just 4 years, its just more unneccessary stress that we don't need - Vote Labour!
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    If you have the same amount as you were before, I wouldn't be moaning about four years assessments.  :)  


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  • lillybellelillybelle Member Posts: 458 Pioneering
    My assessor suggested a 3 year assessment.
    apparently my condition will improve.
    god know how she came to that conclusion as I’ve had it for the past 40 yrs
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  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    There are 'no end date' awards but the DWP will still want to review these every 10 years even for conditions that cannot improve.  The government will still want to check on people even though this will be a waste of public time and money.  They just don't like paying out benefits so will insist on checking in order to keep control.

    Labour have said that the will make indefinite awards to those whose conditions cannot improve.
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  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    My award letter states 'no end date' but that I will be contacted after 10 years from the date the award was made.
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  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Some awards have end dates, others do not have end dates.
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    edited April 2018
    When Amazon start selling brains I'm cured.  
    My mind works fine though.

    People are still hung up on their condition improving or not. An improvement in your condition might not mean you can suddenly cook. It getting worse might not mean you are suddenly in a wheelchair. Thats why they check HOW your life is effected, not what it is you suffer from.


    Talking of MH its such a vast and interesting subject that even psychiatry is in its infancy. 
    But with all your labels @Victoriad they agree you are depressed then!
    I love the subject-I know that's a PIP score of 10 in itself right!! Weirdo alert.
    But I did the A level equivalent. And there wasn't really a right or wrong answer because a lot of it is based on presentation and what the person feels and says.
    I come from Mars- delusional or having a laugh ( how do you know the difference  :) )

    Maybe they are giving out too many labels these days, when i was depressed. I was simply depressed. Think there might be nine different types!! Get that wrong, you are on the wrong grubs and wrong pathway.

    But a part of me wonders that the checking isn't necessarily a bad thing. We are all individuals and what's happened to get us where we are behind the screen today, is individual. As I get older my condition is going to deteriorate, but that's probably age related as much as the condition itself. 


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  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    I did not say there are no end date awards;  I said there are 'no end date' awards, i.e. awards with no end date.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    Why are we fighting amongst ourselves here, ask an advisor? 
    I dont agree with pip, but its here. I dont agree with the length of time, but thats what you get. Pip is not dla. In my opinion its a cost cutting exercise but thats just me. I think lots of people are getting treated poorly and being made to jump through hoops, but it is what it is. 
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Ongoing awards are ten years. 
    This was discussed last year and an advisor replied. 
    https://community.scope.org.uk/discussion/33845/indefinite-pip-awards

    Even with an indefinite award, nobody actually did because they got rid of DLA.
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  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Ladypetal said:
    I used to be on DLA Indefinitely, but recently was switched over to PIP and although I got the same award it's not indefinite, which means I have to go through another stressful assessment etc in another 4 years time even though my spinal condition isn't going to get any better! It seems so unfair - is anyone else in the same boat/have advice? 
    You're lucky, I'm 70 and only get 3 year awards - to review after 2. Had 3 re-assessments in the past 5 years all for the same length.

    However I have now been reliably informed by Mike Hughes that everyone should suggest to the DWP on the claim form how long an award should be for and give reasons and evidence. Also You can also have a MR to extend the award as well.

  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    I am not denying that many people are given fixed-term awards - but there are also people who are given non-fixed-term awards.  It's not a question of semantics - it's a matter of fact.  There are some awards with an end date and there are others that do not have an end date.
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:
    Ladypetal said:
    I used to be on DLA Indefinitely, but recently was switched over to PIP and although I got the same award it's not indefinite, which means I have to go through another stressful assessment etc in another 4 years time even though my spinal condition isn't going to get any better! It seems so unfair - is anyone else in the same boat/have advice? 
    You're lucky, I'm 70 and only get 3 year awards - to review after 2. Had 3 re-assessments in the past 5 years all for the same length.

    However I have now been reliably informed by Mike Hughes that everyone should suggest to the DWP on the claim form how long an award should be for and give reasons and evidence. Also You can also have a MR to extend the award as well.

    How would I come to that conclusion? Everyone is going to say ongoing ten years aren't they. 

    My condition is lifelong, but it's fluctuating. 
    If my condition stays as it is today for example, I don't expect my life to copy. 
    It's about how you function.
    What I can't do and what I can will surely change based on product development and designing aids to assist? 
    The pip will bring in changes of legislation that changes how is marked. They brought in aids for a start- less points.

    I am probably the wrong person for pip, I'm proactive. They ask if you can cook a simple meal, no I can't and this is why, but I don't need to be able to. There are other ways to function. By the time I had explained what I can do I'm surprised to get the two points for not being able to use the cooker!
    It's 2018 you do not need to be able to cook these days. 
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  • LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
    Matilda said:
    There are 'no end date' awards but the DWP will still want to review these every 10 years even for conditions that cannot improve.  The government will still want to check on people even though this will be a waste of public time and money.  They just don't like paying out benefits so will insist on checking in order to keep control.

    Labour have said that the will make indefinite awards to those whose conditions cannot improve.

  • LadypetalLadypetal Member Posts: 7 Connected
    Thank you Matilda for an intelligent, helpful and understanding reply. Previously under Labour I was given indefinite award, then Conservatives took over and had to ruin things for some of us and make things more difficult for genuine cases who don't need the stress of reapplying every few years.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 851 Pioneering
    @Ladypetal

    Yes it is pointless when your never going to improve, I also was on DLA indef and yes i was lucky to move to PIP ongoing without grief, all i suggest is try and come to terms with it for now and try to relax, i know this is wrong like many also do. Stay strong...

    I was also lucky to have great insight from my friend Debbie Abrahams my lovley labour lady she is my rock and wants to help us less fortune going through all this agro with this process.



    Ok im gonna add a little more to this regarding ongoing awards.

    I have the above and they know full well im never going to improve but get worse and no prospect of recovery this is and is Capita and the CM at the DWP's words

    Also to add No one has had a review since having a ten year award or ongoing.

    See below.



    Also an ongoing award is after ten years not a year before, like they are for fixed term awards like a 3,4,5 or even a fixed term 10 year award.

    So yes a full ten years or more and it could even be eleven years or more then you may be contacted thats what an ongoing award is.
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    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
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  • sue66sue66 Member Posts: 124 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:
    Just fished mine out.....
    Ive looked at your claim and decided

    I can award you the standard rate of £55.10 a week to help you with your daily living needs from xx YYYY 2016 to xx YYYY 2020.....that’s a definate end date in my books.

    Ive got it for four years with an end date.

    My husband said the same from 2016 to 2020  so yes like you it clearly gives and end date and he is expecting to have to go through the whole assessment procedure all over again, same symptoms, same condition, but different assessor next time could have completely different outcome  and from what ive read the 4 yrs doesn't mean 4 full yrs as they are sending out another form after 3!
  • lillybellelillybelle Member Posts: 458 Pioneering
    Keep your fingers crossed things might change and we are spared this farce again
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 918 Pioneering
    My reviews have happened 9 months after tribunal, 11 months after, and then 19 months. Lose it every time, MR, appeal, blah blah. 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    I don't understand why people don't understand that pip is not to do with the condition itself.
    It's about HOW it effects your ability to do the descriptors, your evidence- you.

    You could line up 50 people with the same condition, all are individuals so it would be wrong to paint them with the same brush.
    Some of us have more than one condition, so the HOW effects them differently.
    I know people with my condition who work, people who are effected worse. So we got looked at differently. The fairly might not apply!!
    @mikehughescq has tried to explain this lots of times.

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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    To tackle each issue in turn. Both DLA and PIP gave people inappropriately short term awards. There was initially a DLA “life” award but the language changed to “indefinite” under political pressure. The intent of PIP was always to review regularly but the bottom line with both benefits is that if you believe an aspect of the decision is wrong you have 1 month to challenge it by MR. Short PIP awards will be appropriate in some circumstances but where they’re not it isn’t because DWP believe there’s a cure around the corner. They have guidance which explicitly forbids that. It’s just a consequence of poor, politically driven decision making and claimants not challenging.

    Most people buy into the idea of ”I do not want to challenge the length of the award in case I lose what I already have.” Whilst I understand the fear it’s a largely misplaced one provided you get face to face advice before doing so. It’s ridiculously easy to challenge provided you have conditions where your mobility/daily living needs will not improve. You simply add a sentence asking DWP to identify the piece of evidence which enabled them to make a short award. I’ve never had them be able to do that yet!

    Be aware that the scenario is different for mental ill health or conditions where not all medicines or treatments have been exhausted. People may well proclaim 
    “but I’ve had this all my life” however a change of meds etc. could well impact positively and this there’s a discussion to be had on a case by case basis. 

    @Governments_A_Joke would you like to post my response to your quote on the other thread? :)

    @madworld I’m afraid I must concur with other posters. Recording an assessment has yet to assist anyone in obtaining or retaining PIP let alone everyone! There is simply no evidence base for that. The one case in the media so far involved someone who unofficially recorded their assessment and showed the HCP recorded inaccuracies. However, there’s no evidence that is what resulted in an award. All that will have happened is that the HCP report was given less weight and their other evidence prevailed. However, in order to get PIP you must have other evidence in the first place. Nobody ever gets PIP just for discrediting a HCP..

    In case @Governments_A_Joke doesn’t get around to posting my enormous Sarah Newton response let me just say that in the past week I’ve had one PIP claimant given an ongoing award in 2014 and reviewed last week with a decision to reduce. That means I’ve either just had the very first case in the UK or the ministers response is not all it appears to be.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2018
    Waylay said:
    My reviews have happened 9 months after tribunal, 11 months after, and then 19 months. Lose it every time, MR, appeal, blah blah. 

    I've had 3 assessments since 2013.I'm 70 and always get 3 year awards but are reviewed ever 24 months. Prior to 2013 I was awarded DLA High Mobility & Care Indefinitely from 1995.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    It's also about how well you make your case for how your disabilities affect your daily living and mobility; how many aids you use; if you struggle to do things even using aids; and to be frank if you 'look' disabled.  People are very influenced by what they can see; my deformed hands convinced tribunal that I should get an extra 2 points for food prep and this increased my DL points from 11 to 13.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    I don’t often agree with you @matilda but I’ll agree with you on that wholeheartedly. Visible impairment makes more sense to people. They feel the need to compensate. To do “something”. People airways talk of mental health as though it’s the main invisible impairment when in fact most impairment is invisible. It is sadly a significant factor in all disability benefit decision making. 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2018
    My pain is not seen, but felt
    My thought is not seen, but heard
    My memory is not seen, but forgotten. 
    What cannot be seen on the outside, is likely living on the inside.



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  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @mikehughescq I will repeat this again as you obviously didnt catch it the last time. YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO RECORD AN ASSESSMENT IF YOU CALL P.I.P AND ARRANGE IT BEFORE THE ASSESSMENT TAKES PLACE. They will ask you to purchase a cassette recorder as its the prefered recording device. If you call the personal independance line yourself they will tell you, I know because I did. And true it wont guarentee a reward but it will guarentee that if an assessor writes down wrong info or claims you said something you did not you will have more then enough to prove your case. There has been thousands of reports lately on assessors who have lied or written the wrong info, its completely legal to record with consent and I think more of us should to prevent any lies or misunderstandings.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    @Madworld thank you for shouting. I was unaware that it was acceptable behaviour on this site or that my post warranted it. I addressed one paragraph to you and, as all can see, at no point did I suggest that recording an assessment was not legal. My entire paragraph addressed the issue that, in itself, it will not help you qualify for PIP.  

    To take your specific points in turn:

    1) You can call an assessment provider and they will agree to recording in principle provided you comply with their requirements including equipment and notice. However, at present it is not a legal obligation. Indeed the HCP on the day can say no and that ends the matter. They rarely do as they know how bad it looks, although there have been some reported cases of them doing so. 

    2) There is no “one size fits all” in advice. The idea that all benefit claimants have to do is purchase a twin cassette recorder and two cassettes is at best a little naive. Many people claiming PIP are doing so having acquired an impairment. They may be on SSP or assessment rate ESA. The chances of them having the capital to make such purchases are incredibly low no matter how low the cost of such kit. A significant number of people could not make such purchases because of their impairment and so on. I’m glad that you were able to do this and that you feel it worked out for you but that’s no basis for claiming that it’s easy and it’s all anyone else had to or should do. Most people on benefits simply don’t have the money and will have other more basic priorities even if they do. Imagine if someone did commit to your suggestion; spent the money and then the HCP refused to consent! There’s no complaint to be made on the back of that. People being recorded must consent. 

    3) Having a recording which shows that an assessor misrepresented what was said does not “prove your case”. It proves that one element of the evidence to be considered by a DM should be given less weight. (tribunals almost never exclude or wholly disregard any evidence. They weigh it). Giving less weight to one piece of evidence would not in itself be sufficient to prove title to PIP. That very much depends on your evidence. Your “guarantee” is nothing of the kind if the other evidence doesn’t then support an award. 

    4) I have called the PIP help line hundred of times in the last 4 years on behalf of claimants or potential claimants. Not once has any information been volunteered about assessments or recording. You have to ask the question and even then the likelihood of an accurate and full answer is slim.

    I have observed previously on here that lay advice is potentially dangerous. Personal experience can be hugely valuable but one anecdote does not make for sound advice. 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Getting really fed up with people feeling the need to shout at other members.

    Are people focusing as much time and energy on the forms as having a go at the assessors? 
    If they lie you take it up with atos or capita. 
    Go for an MR and show where you fit the descriptors, not point out how crap the assesor was. Anyone going for the MR feels the award is wrong whether that's the assessor or DM.
    Recording the assessment might actually show you that you said what you didn't think you have!
    It's also interpretation. Mine asked two questions.
    Do you do online banking- no 
    Do you use Facebook- no. 
    He concluded I didn't use the Internet at all. I didn't say that, I merely answered what I was asked. 
    That's what they do.
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    I don’t wish to precede every post with “Er, I’m a welfare rights officer” as it’s arrogant and often wholly irrelevant but you do have to wonder as you say @whistles if some people are so constantly on fight mode that they would disregard all advice from pretty much everyone because their own experience over rules all. 
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  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @mikehughescq There you go then you can record the meeting if you ask for permission or atleast get some advice.
  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @mikehughescq and you are right it wont guarentee any rate of sucsess of claim, im suggesting it will prevent any misunderstandings with assessors and overall hopefully prevent having to appeal if you believe your claim was assessed wrongfully i.e the assessor wasnt truthful.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    @Madworld sorry to be so blunt but you can only record the meeting with consent. Most people are not going to have either the money to buy the equipment nor want to take the risk that, having bought it, consent will then be refused. 

    I’ve yet to hear of a single case in 4 years where a recording prevented someone having to go to MR or appeal. The claim process is very much broken and it simply doesn’t work that way. 


  • MadworldMadworld Member Posts: 20 Connected
    @mikehughescq ok well I dont want to keep going around in circles so to anyone who sees this, you can ask permission to record an assessment. If you feel the assessor has lied or misunderstand you which alot of people have reported then you know you can ask about this if you think it may help the case, I know I will. End of story goodluck to you all.
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