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Pip Appeal.. PAPERS or ORAL?

BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
edited May 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hey guys, I'm new here.

I have a visual impairment due to a genetic disability. Nettleship falls ocular albinism. I was on a life award of DLA since the age of two. Now 36.

Had to apply for pips where the assessor lied. Lots of rubbish. Anyway they awarded standard mobility but 6points daily living 

I worked out that I should have got 14 on the face of it.. But 10 worst case. 

I requested an MR with full details of the lies from assessor, included evidence etc and they just ignored every word of it and said the same reasons that I proved were rubbish. 

Now I am applying for an appeal. Because of my vision its hard for me to go places and wondered if I sent a detailed appeal, would I still be much worse off with a Papers appeal? 

I am hoping once the appeal court sends the papers to DWP showing the lies and true extent of my abilities, I will get a call with an offer of standard. From what I hear.. When the DWP know they haven't fobbed you off and you lodge your appeal where you could legitimately gain  the enhanced rate, they tend to act quite quick to get you to accept the standard rate. 

I also heard the DWP now attend more appeals where high rate is a possibility in order to prevent an enhanced award to be awarded?

Surely if they called to offer standard and you chose to still go to appeal, would the fact they offered standard after relooking at the facts assist in your appeal being awarded for at least basic  or can you accept the standard rate and still appeal that on the basis it should be enhanced.. Or would the DWP offer be on the basis you stop the appeal?

Thanks. Benny 

Replies

  • steve51steve51 Member Posts: 7,175 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Good Evening & Welcome.

    It’s great to meet you today.

    We have got a number of “Benefit Advisors” here on our site.

    I will forward your post onto them if that is ok????

    They are currently very very busy so I am unsure of the timescale for them to get back to you!!!!!!

     Hi @BenefitsTrainingCo

    Can you please offer me some advice with this post???
  • Laura99Laura99 Member Posts: 62 Courageous
    Hi there.

    I wouldn't put much past the DWP in terms of offering things in order to avoid paying other things, but I also think that a face-to-face appeal is the easiest way for you to get your points across. 

    In your case you got higher rate DLA to start with. The majority of people who had this award go on to get enhanced PIP, but generally they have to go to an appeal.

    Let us know what happens. I think your case is very interesting.
  • markyboymarkyboy Member Posts: 368 Pioneering
    If the DWP make any sort of offer to change the award it usually comes with the condition that you cancel the appeal.
    If you have a good case a paper appeal will be quicker and less stressful than going to the hearing as attending sometimes you get brain fog and say the wrong things where as you can sit at home and write it all down and submit it to the courts
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,560 Disability Gamechanger
    Benny,

    I’m a bit late to this show but I have OA2 and also work in welfare rights. It’s a bit late tonight but I’ll try and post something tomorrow.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Laura99 said:
    In your case you got higher rate DLA to start with. The majority of people who had this award go on to get enhanced PIP, but generally they have to go to an appeal.
    I like your comment about the majority. I always like to be different and challenging. On that basis I was extremely pleased to be found as belonging to the minority. I was in receipt of DLA High Mobility & Care for an indefinite period having been last assessed in 2011. 
    My PIP decision came in 2013 when they pleased me no end with 0 points!
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,560 Disability Gamechanger
    Hey guys, I'm new here.

    I have a visual impairment due to a genetic disability. Nettleship falls ocular albinism. I was on a life award of DLA since the age of two. Now 36.

    Had to apply for pips where the assessor lied. Lots of rubbish. Anyway they awarded standard mobility but 6points daily living 

    I worked out that I should have got 14 on the face of it.. But 10 worst case. 

    I requested an MR with full details of the lies from assessor, included evidence etc and they just ignored every word of it and said the same reasons that I proved were rubbish. 

    Now I am applying for an appeal. Because of my vision its hard for me to go places and wondered if I sent a detailed appeal, would I still be much worse off with a Papers appeal? 

    I am hoping once the appeal court sends the papers to DWP showing the lies and true extent of my abilities, I will get a call with an offer of standard. From what I hear.. When the DWP know they haven't fobbed you off and you lodge your appeal where you could legitimately gain  the enhanced rate, they tend to act quite quick to get you to accept the standard rate. 

    I also heard the DWP now attend more appeals where high rate is a possibility in order to prevent an enhanced award to be awarded?

    Surely if they called to offer standard and you chose to still go to appeal, would the fact they offered standard after relooking at the facts assist in your appeal being awarded for at least basic  or can you accept the standard rate and still appeal that on the basis it should be enhanced.. Or would the DWP offer be on the basis you stop the appeal?

    Thanks. Benny 
    As promised then and I’ll take things in the order you put them. Just to emphasise that I have OA2 so you don’t need to explain the impacts. They’re complex and variable and difficult to articulate accurately. First of all a question. When you made the phone call to PIP do you recall being asked about whether you wanted the evidence from your DLA claim taken into account? It’s now being recognised that this is pivotal and unless you explicitly said no then it should be. This will be absolutely relevant to your appeal. 

    It would also be useful to know what your DLA award was. I would expect lower rate of both components at minimum but middle rate care at best. On paper PIP should be easier for a person with a VI but in practice standard rate mobility and nothing for daily living are common. I think your estimate of potential daily living points is correct for the condition but it would be useful to know how you break it down as there are some descriptors you might think don’t apply for which there’s also an argument. 

    As regards a paper hearing, yes, you would be much worse off opting for a paper hearing. Even on good cases the chances of success are low - around 5 to 8% whereas the overall success rate for PIP appeals is 71% and most of those are at oral hearings. I also find it difficult to travel in quite subtle ways but I can and do and to some extent you’re in control. When you completed your SSCS1 appeal form what reasonable adjustments did you ask for? You can for example ask for large print appeal papers and even specify the font size. You could also ask that the tribunal is held at the start of the afternoon session at 2pm to give you the best chance of getting there and the shortest wait.

    I doubt you’ll ever come across a panel member who knows about OA (although I know a judge who does) so it’s really important you attend as most panel members make assumptions about visual impairment which would be comical of they weren’t so far off. A representative will be important on the legal side but on the eye side you will be the expert and that would likely remain the case even if you were to, for example, secure representation from an eye charity. 

    I think it’s very unlikely you’ll get any offer before the appeal because what appears obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to DWP. Offers tend to come in when enhanced rate is on the table and that’s possible but not likely. Standard rate would be a good result on Ocular Albinism (although I’ll wait to hear your suggested points breakdown before commenting further). 

    The other reason an offer is unlikely is simply that in common with others on here you have focused on the HCP report. Picking apart such reports is not difficult but it doesn’t get you PIP. At tribunal level you’re kicking at an open door when it comes to arguing the HCP report isn’t great but all that does is give it less weight. What then matters is the weight of your evidence. What points? Why? Supporting evidence? I’m not talking about medical evidence. I’m talking about anecdotal evidence about what happens when you do certain activities. 

    There are indeed more DWP Presenting Officers. These used to be amicus curiae or neutral friends if the tribunal. There to guide them. This lot were recruited to “defend” decisions, which is a corruption of the intent of tribunals to be inquisitorial rather than adversarial. Fortunately they are also entertainingly clueless and are regularly ripped to shreds by most recent tribunals. 

    As as I say I think your chances of an offer are very low indeed but if it happens then the appeal lapses. DWP act illegally on this and ask you to withdraw as that gets recorded as you being happy with an award rather than them conceding they got it wrong. Legally they are wrong but they won’t hold to the offer if you don’t withdraw. That said, there’s nothing to stop you from accepting stagdard rate; withdrawing the appeal and then starting a new challenge to the revised award. 

    Were you to refuse an offer then there’s no real advantage on the day of the hearing for multiple reasons:

    1 - they never revise their appeal submission to reflect the fact they even made an offer. If you don’t bring it to the attention of the panel then most likely they’d never know.

    2 - a tribunal is a complete rehearing from scratch. What has gone before is relevant and interestung but not binding. Your mobility points would also be looked at again. 

    Whereabouts are you? Might be able to point you towards representation.
  • atlas46atlas46 Member Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi

    A very well done and a great outcome, after such a long time.

    I was sad to learn that you struggle during this time and had to use food banks.

    The tribunal panel were obviously impressed with you at the hearing.

    It is always good for the community to hear such positive outcomes, from a determined claimant.


  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Points Breakdown: Daily Component. Use of an aid to bathe, need supervision / assistance to prepare a meal and burns, cuts and unable to read labels. Social support for engaging with people as i have had life long anxiety and depression from bullying, parents **** taking and getting into fights because people thought my nystagmus was me staring at them. (history on medical records of meds and o/d's) Assistance in selecting appropriate clothing. this was a trick question on the pip application because the section that mentions this does not give an option to answer it. need an aid other than glasses / contacts to read.

    and we all know the descriptor for Enhanced Mobility.

    Hope this helps.
  • atlas46atlas46 Member Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Thanks for the additional information, I have never heard of your condition before.

    I have read @mikehughescq post on this thread and if I read his post correct, he has the same condition and feel sure he will be interested in the outcome of your tribunal.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    P.s my initial DLA award was low for both. But as i argued. when i was awarded for life i was about 5 years old and at the time it was y parents that told the authorities how they thought my vision affected me.

    PIP were quick as hell for their first statement to say " Mr Tallis was on a life award for DLA both at low rate. THAT WAS THERE VERY FIRST STATEMENT.

    I told the tribunal in my application that there is only one person who knows how my vision affects me, and it certainly was not my parents 30 plus years ago.

    As well as lodging my appeal with medical records and detailed everything. I got my best friends of 20 years to write a detailed statement on what he has been doing for me regarding shopping, cooking, social integration etc. I also had a group member from a social group for the Visually impaired to write a statement to say i was a member and it was facilitated by the ROVI and RNIB.

    I did not get assistance from CAB or the RNIB although i wish i knew i could have. However the courts stated i did a better job than either and it showed.

    on top of this and perhaps the most powerful thing, i wrote a statement to the tribunal to be read before the other papers. my reasoning was that at the end i would be asked if i had  any comments. i said i would not be able to read my notes so included them prior and this statement dealt purely with the Assessors report, the assessors recommendations, the joint manipulation of fact and fabrications made on assumptions.

    That helped
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    atlas46 said:
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Thanks for the additional information, I have never heard of your condition before.

    I have read @mikehughescq post on this thread and if I read his post correct, he has the same condition and feel sure he will be interested in the outcome of your tribunal.
    He has OA2, unless he meant Ocular Albinism too.

    Mine is X chromosome linked (so boys only passed down from the carrying mother) it is possible for females to get this but its extremely rare and wouldnt be x-linked. There are many forms of albinism. (yes we are Albino's) some just affect ocular like mine ( Retina / foeva are not fully developed so no pigmentation to absorb light. Imagine looking into the sun, multiply it by a hundred and you might be close to the sensitivity. even with sunglasses whiteout is a major issue. side effects apart from photophobia which is debilitating enough, you can have pail skin and burn easy. very easy and never tan. Also the wires that connect your eyes to the brain are wired to the wrong side of the brain respectively. another major issue id depth perception. so a fresh bit of tarmac, shadow, kerb or anything that contrast, you generally cannot tell if it is a step or not, or how steep.

    Also need the cane for the general public. as cannot see driver through windows when they wait for you to cross and seeing a bike is possible. but only when its about to hit you :) People need to know you cant see them, that is as important as stopping you hitting a lamp post.

    Females tend to get other forms. as said its very hard to explain to someone who doesn't have it. 

    but it sucks balls. especially when any job that you love that requires vision, cars etc etc.


  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    When people ask why don't glasses help... best ever way i have explained it is this:

    Imagine looking through a frosted window.... put on the best glasses in the world , will it fix it? No. it just makes the frosted window bigger but doesn't clear it
  • atlas46atlas46 Member Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi

    Thanks for your very helpful explanation about your VI.

    Have you ever thought about writing a blog, I think it would go down a storm, especially “your road to PIP”.

    I can relate about VI, because my dear niece, has a similar story as yours, but a different condition.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Haha. Concurrently I have also been under an intensive Historical Trauma Programme for abuse from childhood and early adulthood as well. Although I mentioned I could have used this for PIP, I didn't want it to play any part in the decision because my only bit of pride remaining wanted an honest and appropriate award for the eyes. 

    I did a journal through the whole course and will be producing a book about the 17 steps to start the road to management of Co.mpkex ptsd, bipolar and my eyesight played a role in that so I will include everything up to date including the hell of the DWP. If anyone who is appealing with a visual impairment would like a copy of my appeal and statement, I can provide. It may or may not be relevant but shows just how succinct and brutally honest about the flaws and injustice from this tory government. 
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    New Question, Maybe another thread but i cant find it: 

    I called ESA and told them about the tribunal ruling and as i'm registered blind they filled in the form for the Severe Disablement Element, however until PIP update it wont make a difference.

    I have been in the support group since before Christmas (when they actually read my CVI after insisting on a medical) and on esa since last may.

    I asked whether because, if i was entitled to Enhanced Daily and Mobility since my appeal date of May last year which pip with be back dated to, if i would get backdated Severe Disablement Element as i would have qualified for it from the outset of my claim now the tribunal has awarded.

    The person on the phone said she wasn't sure. she had seen cases where it had been back dated and some where it hadn't but there was no calculation she could do and its something that's automated.

    anyone know if it does get backdated also as i would have qualified. or as i would have thought, backdated to the time at which i was placed into the support group..

    Even in that situation, when i was eventually put in the support group, that was backdated to the 14th week of my esa claim.. 

    if they did backdate then i'm guessing to the 14th week.

    I was sure they wouldn't at all but the lady on the phone from ESA says she has seen it happen.

    Opinions / experience?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It will depend what ESA you're claiming. Are you claiming Income related, Contributions based or New style ESA?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    it was contribution based but i was " entitled to both" however as soon as i got placed into the support group i went straight onto income related and even had a rebate from Housing Benefit as it appears they backdated my IR allowance to the 14th week. confused.com
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Then if you live alone or classed as living alone the SDP will be backdated to the start of your PIP award.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    wow. will advise if and when it happens :)
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Well done also on winning the Tribunal. You will need to wait until your PIP is in payment before claiming the SDP.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Yes the woman said that on the phone but went through the application with me over the phone and emailed it to the relevant department.

    i got a call from them saying they had received it but cannot act upon it until pip is in place.

    i will know before though as Housing Benefit manage to send me a letter of award a day after pip changes, yet it takes weeks for the letter from pip to arrive. that's how i found out at the start of pip my claim had flunked because Housing Benefit wrote to me saying there was a chance in circumstances and listed just the standard mobility element.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,560 Disability Gamechanger
    atlas46 said:
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Thanks for the additional information, I have never heard of your condition before.

    I have read @mikehughescq post on this thread and if I read his post correct, he has the same condition and feel sure he will be interested in the outcome of your tribunal.
    I’m OCA 2 and Nystagmus. Goodish decision which once again confirms my assertion that properly presented claims to PIP for sensory impairment should almost always score enhanced rate mobility and a minimum of standard rate daily living. Well done.

    No material difference but you should have scored on reading and budgeting and the length of the award should have been 10 years not 5 as there will be no evidence, medical or otherwise, to suggest anything will have changed at the 5 year point. There is now caselaw supporting the idea that you can lodge an MR on award length alone. See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c6e86fc40f0b647ac8db29c/CPIP_1057_2018-00.pdf
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,560 Disability Gamechanger
    atlas46 said:
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Thanks for the additional information, I have never heard of your condition before.

    I have read @mikehughescq post on this thread and if I read his post correct, he has the same condition and feel sure he will be interested in the outcome of your tribunal.
    He has OA2, unless he meant Ocular Albinism too.

    Mine is X chromosome linked (so boys only passed down from the carrying mother) it is possible for females to get this but its extremely rare and wouldnt be x-linked. There are many forms of albinism. (yes we are Albino's) some just affect ocular like mine ( Retina / foeva are not fully developed so no pigmentation to absorb light. Imagine looking into the sun, multiply it by a hundred and you might be close to the sensitivity. even with sunglasses whiteout is a major issue. side effects apart from photophobia which is debilitating enough, you can have pail skin and burn easy. very easy and never tan. Also the wires that connect your eyes to the brain are wired to the wrong side of the brain respectively. another major issue id depth perception. so a fresh bit of tarmac, shadow, kerb or anything that contrast, you generally cannot tell if it is a step or not, or how steep.

    Also need the cane for the general public. as cannot see driver through windows when they wait for you to cross and seeing a bike is possible. but only when its about to hit you :) People need to know you cant see them, that is as important as stopping you hitting a lamp post.

    Females tend to get other forms. as said its very hard to explain to someone who doesn't have it. 

    but it sucks balls. especially when any job that you love that requires vision, cars etc etc.
    Top explanation :) but it’s the fovea (specifically the foveal dip or centre of the macular)  which is underdeveloped not the retina. Very different. Functionally it’s like being born with macular degeneration. OA2/OCA2 includes Ocular Albinism. 
  • atlas46atlas46 Member Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi @BennyTallis

    Have you read the link posted by @mikehughescq about appealing length of award.

    I would definitely request MR over the length of award.

    Please read the link.
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    If you could supply the link it would be great. Assuming if no change though I can tell them at review I'll just provide the same evidence? 
  • BennyTallisBennyTallis Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Just called DWP, they said they've received the info from tribunal however they are requesting statement of reasons and maybe second tier despite the court saying my application was one of the best they seen. DWP said money a long way away if any. Grrhh
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Requesting the statement of reasons doesn't mean they are appealing the decision. They can't appeal without finding the error in law. They sometimes request the SOR but rare appeal it. It can just delay receiving the money you're owed. If they do request it they will write to you and tell you.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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