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Changed from indefinite DLA to PIP - been through tribunal - not happy

Nairb
Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
edited May 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi I've just signed in has a new member I was on high rate dla indefitingly then it changed to pip I am 68 years old I went to my pip assesment and was only awarded standard mobility and nothing for care citizens advice helped me to put in a mandetry reconsideration this was turned down so I was told to appeal after 7 months of waiting I had my appeal and the appeal was upheld I was only awarded the standard rate of mobility I even told the judge that I had complained to atos has the examiner had lied on several things in the medical report she said that I had a full multiskelaton examination yet I had no examination whatsoever I told her my foot swells when walking or standing wich it does due to my oestoarthritis wich it does and I'm still under a consultant for this she put in her report that my foot did not look swollen yet I was never even asked to remove my shoe and sock so she could look at it so how did she come to the conclusion that my foit was not swollen ?? SORRY for the long post but I could go on and on I even use an inhaler through a spacer with face mask yet pip say that it is not classed has an aid to take medication ?, 
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Comments

  • JennysDad
    JennysDad Member Posts: 2,299 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello @Nairb and a warm welcome to the community. I'm sorry to hear you've had such a bad time.
    I'm not able to advise on benefits matters but we do have qualified people here who can and they will get back to you as soon as possible.
    In the meantime please stay in touch, and don't hesitate to ask any questions that occur to you.
    Warmest best wishes to you,
    Richard
    @JennysDad
  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Thank you jenny's dad best wishes to you all 
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    Nairb said:
    I was on high rate dla indefitingly then it changed to pip I am 68 years old I went to my pip assesment and was only awarded standard mobility and nothing for care....... after 7 months of waiting I had my appeal and the appeal was upheld I was only awarded the standard rate of mobility  
    Is that correct? You were given standard mobility by the DWP and the same by the Tribunal?
    So in effect the tribunal said that the DWP were right.
    Like you, I am 70 and have had 3 PIP face to face assessments/re-assessments since 2013. Every one resulted in a failure. I too had high for both mobility and care DLA previously. I managed to convince the DWP for the first 2 that they were wrong and they then awarded Enhanced mobility & care. The third the MR failed also so have now given up.

    It does make you wonder just what you have to do at our ages to make the DWP see sense.

    How long was your award for and are you intending putting in a claim for a deterioration of your abilities?

    Good luck with whatever you do. 
  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    My dla award was for an indfenate period but when it changed to pip like I said I lost my high rate for both and only got standard rate mobility and yes my health has now detariated so I've put in a change of circumstances form let's see what happens now ?? Thank you for your reply 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected

    I think we need to be clear that proving that one piece of evidence should be given less weight because it contains inaccuracies is not the way to qualify for PIP. The tribunal have to weigh all the evidence. Discrediting HCP evidence does not automatically mean you have enough evidence to qualify. That will very much depend on what you submitted.

    Bear in mind also that the criteria for DLA and PIP are different. Qualifying for one has minimal bearing on whether you qualify for the other. Neither benefit are interested in the fact you're disabled. They're interested in the consequences only.

    What you now need to do is to request a statement or reasons and record of proceedings from HMCTS and get face to face advice about the merits of a further appeal to Upper Tribunal.

  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Put in a change of circumstances got letter today having a home visit in 2 weeks why do I feel all nervy about them coming to see me ?,
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    edited May 2018
    But you haven’t described having a change of circumstances! Your health deteriorating is meaningless unless you now have less functional ability and can relate it directly to specific points scoring activities. 
  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Yes I have I put in a change of circumstances on the advice of my stroke team with being dicanosed has having a stroke weakness down right side I also have a dropped foot and severe sciatica and thus was all put in the change of circumstances form before the change of circumstances I was awarded 10 points for mobility so got the standard rate and 6 points for care so 2 points short of the standard rate for care my right side is weak writing this with left hand yet I'm right handed and my wife helps me type it I am now also having bladder proplems so something else to say to the examiner when he gets here in 2 weeks now on nlood thinners and oramorth fir pain also zapain and gabapentin feel spaced out most days again let's see what happens 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    Okay, so where do you think you score the extra 2 points?
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,447 Disability Gamechanger
    I think you're not totally understanding what PIP is all about. As Mike has already stated, it's totally different to DLA. Some people transferring from DLA won't be awarded PIP because the descriptors don't apply to them.

    During your Tribunal, you totally missed the point of what it's all about by concentrating on your assessment and the lies that were told. The Tribunal wouldn't have been in the slight bit interested in what lies were told. What they would have wanted to see is evidence to prove those descriptors apply to you.

    You do risk losing everything you already have by reporting those changes. As you've already reported them, it's too late now.

    Have you looked at the descriptors to see where you can score those extra points? It's ok to say your condition has got worse but it's a totally different matter in proving those descriptors apply to you. If they don't apply then you won't score those points, it's as simple as that.

    Did you send in evidence to support those changes? Also for PIP you must have had the condition for at least 3 months and expect it to last at least a further 9 months. Have you have those new conditions for a least 3 months? If not then you won't be award points for them.

    I'd advice you to have another look at the descriptors to see exactly where you think you should score those points. If you not awarded and have to take it to appeal again then i'd get some help from somewhere.
  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Yes I sent in extra evidence I sent a list of my stroke teams names a card which they had wrote on with appointment dates of when there been to see me and dates they are coming to see me I am on more medication now I am under a speech therapist I have difficulty swallowing my tablets need cutting up I have been supplied extra aids by my occupational therapist bed rail , pillow raiser,  Walker, raised toilet seat, kitchen percher, ect and all these are a god send to me, I am under the pulamunary team for my copd waiting to go in hospital for 1 night has I have deep rooted injections in my left foot for my oestoarthritis some mornings I carnt even stand never mind trying to walk due to my sciatica I don't want to be I'll I wish I was fit and healthy but this is what life has thrown at me and I don't like it 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    Your extra evidence was effectively worthless as the fact you’ve had a stroke is not in dispute. 

    You’ve now told us about some stuff where you would ciearly score points but it’s meaningiess if they’re points you’ve already been given. What do you think should score you an extra 2 points? What is the one thing where you should have obviously scored points?

    If you can’t identify that by this stage then you’re going to fail.
  • Nairb
    Nairb Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Are you sure you dont work for pip ?, I need help to dress, shower, help with medication, watching over in case I choke has I have proplems with swallowing, cannot manage to walk more then 2 meters unaded I have a wheelchair 
  • Matilda
    Matilda Member Posts: 2,610 Disability Gamechanger
    Disabilty Rights UK site (DR) has a good guide to PIP.  Your disabilities have to fit the various applicable descriptors.

    PIP points are awarded for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

    Try to get some f2f advice from CAB or similar.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    Nairb said:
    Are you sure you dont work for pip ?, I need help to dress, shower, help with medication, watching over in case I choke has I have proplems with swallowing, cannot manage to walk more then 2 meters unaded I have a wheelchair 
    None of that tells us which points you have and which 2 points you think are missing.
  • sue66
    sue66 Member Posts: 124 Pioneering
    Nairb said:
    Are you sure you dont work for pip ?, I need help to dress, shower, help with medication, watching over in case I choke has I have proplems with swallowing, cannot manage to walk more then 2 meters unaded I have a wheelchair 
    Seems to me no matter how hard we do actually describe how our illness or ailment affects us we just cant win.!  You cant be much more clearer Nairb. Many of us who originally got DLA indefinitely due to the fact we had illnesses or what ever that wont  ever improve  or in the  majority of cases only get worse with time as we get older should be taken into account.. Also if you are fortunate enough to get any points at all and get any rate of care or mobility  1st time unless a miracle has happened  we shouldn't have to keep applying for the same condition over and over again. Its never fare  if  the 1st assessor reported all the facts accurately which resulted in us getting higher rate that we should have to start from scratch all over again and re apply like it was first time all over again with a completely different assessor  who may write down things different. Its obvious if we fail to get PIP 2ncd time but got it the 1st that its down to the assessor and not that we have improved. 

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    Not a fan of the “just can’t win arguments”. PIP is costing more than DLA ever did. More people are qualifying than budgeted for. Web forums don’t tend to be populated by success stories by their very nature and yet the fact is that the process, however flawed, does actually get thousands of people onto benefit and many of those on forums actually legitimately don’t qualify.

    There is a simple answer to being obliged to reapply. Use the “anything else you want to tell us” box to explain how your conditions are lifelong, degenerative etc. Then ask for an ongoing award on that basis. Then assert that if DWP are not minded to make an ongoing award you want them to identify the specifc piece of evidence which suppprts the case for a short award. I’ve yet to have a case where they are able to do so when this argument is used appropriately. 

    Bottom line is that if you don’t assert your entitlement to a king award then you’re not going to get one. 
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    edited May 2018
    Nairb said:
    Yes I have I put in a change of circumstances on the advice of my stroke team with being dicanosed has having a stroke weakness down right side I also have a dropped foot and severe sciatica and thus was all put in the change of circumstances form before the change of circumstances I was awarded 10 points for mobility so got the standard rate and 6 points for care so 2 points short of the standard rate for care my right side is weak writing this with left hand yet I'm right handed and my wife helps me type it I am now also having bladder proplems so something else to say to the examiner when he gets here in 2 weeks now on nlood thinners and oramorth fir pain also zapain and gabapentin feel spaced out most days again let's see what happens 

    I would take Mike's advice on this. He knows what he is talking about and is a senior welfare rights advisor.

    Personally I cannot see what is the reason for quoting your medication - it means nothing to the DWP.
    In fact I take similar medication plus morphine sulphate MST. 
    Yet I am able to work fairly normally without any significant side effects. The one side effect I do have because of the Morphine is regularly feeling sick. For this I take anti sickness medication.

    You should be concentrating on where the extra points are going to come from - which additional or higher rated descriptors will apply to you. It's no good quoting your medication or even what your problems are - you only have to show how the descriptors apply to you as well as providing evidence to support that statement. 

    What I can also tell you that based on what my problems are and what medication I am on - 5 pages of repeat prescription monthly the assessor and the DWP didn't consider them relevant. and gave me nothing. The assessor even discounted the fact that I have all of our toilets fitted with frames and a higher seat, I have a bed riser to hold onto in order to dress and get in & out of bed, an electric bath riser as well as a fitted shower seat. The assessor accepted that I had these adaptions but considered that they were not on a need basis, more a question of my choice.

    My problem is always that I see a glass half full and try to put a positive slant on everything I say and do. I put a smile on my face, grit my teeth and get on with it, otherwise what is the point in living.  
  • Matilda
    Matilda Member Posts: 2,610 Disability Gamechanger
    Nairb

    I suggest you ask the judge for a statement of reasons (SOR) for tribunal's decision and ask CAB to read it to see if they can identify an error of law, in which case you could appeal to an upper tier tribunal.

    On the face of it the tribunal's decision appears bizarre, even perverse.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,845 Connected
    Matilda said:
    Nairb

    I suggest you ask the judge for a statement of reasons (SOR) for tribunal's decision and ask CAB to read it to see if they can identify an error of law, in which case you could appeal to an upper tier tribunal.

    On the face of it the tribunal's decision appears bizarre, even perverse.
    I’m not seeing anything bizarre on the face of it. He’s not identified the points he has so we can’t possibly tell if anything is missing. He seems quite insistent on not telling us what points were awarded and for what so we need to respect that but, equally, he needs to understand that without that no-one can advuse him accurately.

    Only to also say, as I did earlier, it’s statement of reasons AND record of proceedings. Having just the one makes a challenge that much harder.


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