Tribunal wins for PIP — Scope | Disability forum
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Tribunal wins for PIP

Yadnad
Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
edited May 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Have I got this right? I heard on the news today that PIP appeal wins has reached 75%!!!

If this is right I cannot see this government allowing this figure to creep up to this extent without changing something in the PIP system to make it that much harder to claim and be awarded.

If this figure is right it is embarrassing for the DWP and the government to sit there and do nothing to reduce it.

The supposed idea of PIP was to reduce the then DLA budget by 20%. If you add the MOJ (tribunal) costs to the ever increasing PIP budget where is the saving?

Comments

  • lindadenise
    lindadenise Member Posts: 302 Pioneering
  • lindadenise
    lindadenise Member Posts: 302 Pioneering
  • susan48
    susan48 Member Posts: 2,221 Disability Gamechanger
    I’d have thought I would cost more to pay for tribunals etc. with the amount of appeals happening 
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    I can see no evidence or news item suggesting it’s risen above 69%. Source? It’s also a case of be careful what you wish for. Government has it in for the judiciary and wants them lower paid; on fixed term contracts and toeing the line. 1930s anyone? Most likely outcome of any further hike in appeal success rates would be reform of the trubunal system so as to reduce appeal rights rather than reform of PIP itself.

    It was just something that flashed up on I believe the Victoria Derbyshire programme.

    I totally agree I too cannot see the government continuing to put up with such a high level of success at a Tribunal. I believe we are on course for Tribunals to only carry out 'paper' appeals alongside telephone hearings. The government are intent on closing down the avenue where a Tribunal is a face to face hearing.
    Much more reliance will be placed on quality and professional submissions that the claimants will be expected to prepare without professional help.

    Thankfully I decided a few weeks ago to get off that train and do without PIP. 
  • susan48
    susan48 Member Posts: 2,221 Disability Gamechanger

    susan48 said:
    I’d have thought I would cost more to pay for tribunals etc. with the amount of appeals happening 

    In comparison to the contracts for private providers to do assessments, nothing like. Venues are pre-booked/leased and many judges are salaried so the only additional costs will be medical professionals; fee paid judges and disability qualified tribunal members. The current backlog is testament to the fact there aren't enough of them.

    The backlog to me says the system doesn’t work in the first place.
    thanks for the info though, everyday is a school day  :)
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    edited May 2018
    Aha. @Yadnad I have found what you were referencing. It's a Wales only thing and can be read at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44157953.

    Thanks Mike. So it was in Wales that in operating the PIP system, the DWP are losing 75% of appeals. I wonder why there is so much difference to the rest of the UK?
    Anyhow at least I was not imagining it.

    If the rest of the UK move up to that level something has to be done. If it was the CPS that was 'losing' that many appeal cases brought by convicted criminals against sentence/conviction some very serious questions would need answering. 
  • lisabrazil80
    lisabrazil80 Member Posts: 94 Connected
    Will I win my pip appeal back for my metal heath eny one can shed some life on it pls if u all text been tho this
  • Weeme56
    Weeme56 Member Posts: 36 Courageous
    I wish we were one of those lucky 75%! Hubbys appeal was yesterday. He had got Zero points after assmnt nov 2017- despite being on DLA for best part of 20 yrs at high care middle mobility. He got 1 point at appeal becaus  he uses dosette box & need supervisoon & promting to take meds! I am SO ANGRY not only with panel but lawyer who I feel was so confident we would get mobility part under the new rules the gov announced for MH clients last year, and that hubby was a basket case o stammering & emotional as well as wlaking with stick etc, but he did not even argue it! The panel were over interested in why hubby did not use disability assisstancee when we went to Barcelona for my 60th B day in Dec 2016 for 2 days! They only knew about that cos it was mention in letter from his psych to our GP - as he does after each appointment!  Also, how could he claim carers allowance & give 35 hours of care if he was so disabled? Caring includes watching over & being able to summon help if needed - not just cooking, washing, shopping etc! There is case law on this & I am ****** off lawyer never raised it. Do they not do that for PIP Tribunals now? you get a disabled lay meber on panel yet they are able to claim DLA?PIP AND get work on these panels & yer a man cannot have a weekend away with his wife? My Ex Welfare rights officer brother spotted that right away as soon as I told him. he sais he would have said that but in a light but pointed way! Maybe we will be able to take it to Upper Tribunal if once we see full report we feel they did not give adequate reason for decision or have not applied case law..which I am sure they have not.  I read there is no definition of “care” being provided in order to qualify for Carers Allowance and it includes companionship and supervision which is easy to satisfy when someone lives with a partner.  See paragraph1.200 Social Security Legislation 2015/15 Volume 1.” 
     . 
  • Weeme56
    Weeme56 Member Posts: 36 Courageous
    He is a lawyer. From local Welfare rights Project, the disabled member had walking sticks so I assume he had a disiability that effects his mobility. As for the carer thing..that was won in case law already. a carer can be someone who is able, assist, to alert or call for help & watch over, prompt verbally, support etc etc even if they do not physically do things. A mum of autistic child fought & won on these grounds.As did a woman caring for parents.The Tribuanl ruled you cannot have both papragraph in the criteria..it is either Sustained & Regular or up to 35 hours. folk who live together do so formore than 35 hours - there was no upper limit
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    edited August 2018
    Weeme56 said:
    He is a lawyer. From local Welfare rights Project, the disabled member had walking sticks so I assume he had a disiability that effects his mobility. As for the carer thing..that was won in case law already. a carer can be someone who is able, assist, to alert or call for help & watch over, prompt verbally, support etc etc even if they do not physically do things. A mum of autistic child fought & won on these grounds.As did a woman caring for parents.The Tribuanl ruled you cannot have both papragraph in the criteria..it is either Sustained & Regular or up to 35 hours. folk who live together do so formore than 35 hours - there was no upper limit
    Carers Allowance

    Maybe I am wrong but the main condition you have to fulfil is that the care given must be for 35 hours or more every week.
    There is no either/or.

    Definition of care

    The 35 hours can include:

    • time spent physically helping the person
    • time you spend ‘keeping an eye’ on the person, eg preventing them coming to harm by walking out of the house
    • time spent doing practical tasks for them, eg cooking
    • time taken doing practical tasks, even if you don’t do them in the presence of the person you are looking after, may also count (for instance, if you look after someone who visits you regularly for the care they need, time spent preparing for the visit or cleaning up afterwards should count)

  • Weeme56
    Weeme56 Member Posts: 36 Courageous
    Okay so I did not use the right word. why are you  disputing this? I said it has already been brough up & won in Case Law. The Tribunal Ruled DWP Rules could not use BOTH descriptors. Look it up I posted the link.
  • Weeme56
    Weeme56 Member Posts: 36 Courageous
    sorry you have such a hostile response to lay people! Here is the link I thoughr I had included. http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=270
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    Weeme56 said:
    sorry you have such a hostile response to lay people! Here is the link I thoughr I had included. http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=270
    On what basis, if any, have either of you claimed  Carers Allowance? And if so is it in payment?
  • Weeme56
    Weeme56 Member Posts: 36 Courageous
    Okay, My point about the cares things is really that the purpose of the assessment is to identify what the client can or cannot do for himself, not another person, and given that my hubby suffers from PTSD & related depression etc, his claim for PIP is largely based on his need for prompting and encouragement, not a physical inability to do things; the fact that I frequently and repeatedly prompts and encourage (nag) him to do things should in fact support the claim and a DM should only make the decision according to the regs and what is recorded from the assessment. The DWP Definitition of Care does not specify any particular 'must do's'.. what you posted is from Cares advice and is only a 'For instance' Here are the  DM guides.  :  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721807/dmgch60.pdf 
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    I have read the transcript that you referred to earlier and can only but agree with what Mike says. It is clearly an Income Support situation and bears absolutely no part of PIP.

    I would also point out in Mike's defence is that he is a well known and respected senior Welfare Rights Officer and above all if he says what it is you can bet your bottom dollar that he is right.
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    edited September 2018
    I do wonder if this is a case of two 'disabled' individuals claiming that they care for each other that may have been prompted in the past as a way of 'maximising' their benefit entitlement and not realising that one may in fact contradict something else?

    Carers Allowance is a self certified claim that once the claimant and the person being cared for have signed it no further questions or examination of the claim will be made by the DWP.
    However the DWP have realised that it could be a contradiction should their 'disability' and the impact it causes be set down for careful scrutiny as at a Tribunal hearing and as such they are fully entitled to an explanation or I should say the Tribunal is.

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