PIP, DLA and AA
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Do you think the PIP system is better han the old DLA

FedUpWithPainFedUpWithPain Member Posts: 5 Connected

Do you think the PIP system is better han the old DLA 17 votes

Yes
29%
WaterLilyyingtongChloe_ScopeannmariescantleburyAlfieboy 5 votes
No
58%
lucille49Rosie2017feirWaylaydebbiedo49ericwattsCazannzany52Retro89sofabunny 10 votes
It needs more time and tweeks
11%
YadnadNashwood1968 2 votes

Replies

  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,300 Disability Gamechanger
    The two benefits are totally different in how you are scored to gain each benefit. DLA was, is about your disability whereas PIP is based on your abilities to manage ,cope doing tasks in daily living and your mobility issues. So PIP is a more robust acessment as can be seen when people are moved from DLA over to PIP.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    They are different benefits but broadly based on the same principle of looking at the consequences of impairment. There were huge problems with DLA and similar problems with PIP, albeit that people like to think the problems are entirely different. I can see advantages in functional assessment if done properly but there are manifest flaws with the evidence gathering processes and I’m no fan of the biophysical model.

    The attached link is a big read but well worth it. I don’t agree with all of it (it’s a bit polemical) but the gist of it seems correct to me.


  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    No. If you are entitled to PIP then you'd have been eligible for DLA too, so i don't get why they brought it in, other than to deny many disabled people the right to a quality of life.

    DLA you could get if you had a sick note from your doctor,that's all you needed to be considered ill and needing help. Although you had to be sick for a year before you were able to claim it but at least eligibility was considered by actual doctors.

    Now everyone gets turned down unless incapacitated according to their dodgy criteria and this does not cover all disabilities that affect real peoples lives.

    I would think it's good if it was because the government did not consider the disabled useless but i seriously doubt it was brought in to give disabled people more rights to work either because benefits are a separate issue from that overall and working rights being enforced is what would help here. it's actually taken away a lot of disabled peoples rights to a quality of life that our human rights says is fundamental to our well being. Disabled peoples rights have been taken away and the gov. can pretend they still exist but they underfunded everything that helps the most vulnerable of society too and this includes the disabled. They cut back on the NHS and council funding too so that anyone disabled is less likely to get help there either.

    I also think it's disgusting that some disabled people who can and do work have had support taken away as their ability to work is taken as a sign that they are not disabled (despite them needing certain aides to retain their independence as a disabled person). I think the amount of disabled people relying on charity now proves that welfare is not working under this scheme. It proves that your right to a quality of life as a disabled person is not there any more, that has now gone. This is a basic human right that needs other humans to give it to you, and it does not exist under the government. Your right to live the same life as everyone else has gone.

    I've always said the tories are evil, everything they do proves it.









  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    feir said:
    No. If you are entitled to PIP then you'd have been eligible for DLA too, so i don't get why they brought it in, other than to deny many disabled people the right to a quality of life.

    DLA you could get if you had a sick note from your doctor,that's all you needed to be considered ill and needing help. Although you had to be sick for a year before you were able to claim it but at least eligibility was considered by actual doctors.

    Now everyone gets turned down unless incapacitated according to their dodgy criteria and this does not cover all disabilities that affect real peoples lives.
    Literally no idea where those 3 things come from. 2nd para. especially. Sick notes were never required nor relevant for DLA and you have only ever had a 3 months backward test not 12 months. As for the “actual doctors”... they were and are the worst bit of DLA.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    edited July 2018
    No
    I claimed DLA once when i was on the sick for a year. Had to wait a year to be entitled to claim it but i did and i got it based on a sick note from my GP that covered me for life, and still does cover me in the sense that it restricts what work i can do and what they would be able to force me to apply for. I am way more disabled now than i was then and was only restricted physically in what work i could do but i still got help because i was disabled at the time, now i am incapacitated but not even covered by PIP.

    I got DLA for less than a year because i 'got better' and so was classed as able to work (despite the sick note that covered me for life) but i am still covered by what work i can do by that sick note ironically and not what is wrong with me now. So that's where that came from. 

    I'm more disabled now but have less protection. It's a joke, this system is laughable.

    Oh and let's not forget that they got rid of the lowest level of disability payments too, so protection for those people also gone. Supposedly that was so that the money went to help those who needed it more, sorry but you class one set of disabled people as not worthy of help  then you're really denying all disabled people the help and this is just the first step there and as you can see they try and move the boundaries for disability again and deny more people help.
    Your rights as a disabled person are being taken away little by little, for many theirs have already gone.
    Evil, like i said,
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    Ah, I fear some considerable confusion. There’s no way you would have had to wait a year to claim DLA unless you had been absent from the UK for a period before claiming and therefore didn’t meet the residence conditions. The 3 months text existed from 1992 and has never changed. If you were newly sick you could have claimed from 3 months.

    A sick note in itself would never get you DLA. Only the consequences of your condition would do that. Again, always been the case. 

    Finally, being able to work is not a relevant change of circs for DLA so you will not have lost it specifically because you were fit for work. Thousands of people get DLA and PIP but also work. You will have lost it because the consequences of your condition improved. It’s not obvious but it’s not always the same thing. 

    Sorry to take us OT.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    edited July 2018
    No
    That's exactly how it happened, a sick note was all i needed but i had to wait a year. I have no passport so have never left the country. I claimed it after 1992. It might have been that my area had different rules to somewhere else, in the way the UC is being rolled out in different areas and so doesn't affect everyone yet?

    I was assessed within 3 months of being entitled to it and they took it away then but as my daughter had just died i really didn't care  at the time. It was only years later that by having their doctor say that there was nothing wrong with me that i had also denied myself self care because i thought nobody cared that i was ill, or more that i wasn't ill at all. And it's the same thing all your life until you finally get some support, once you get it this tells you that you are worth looking after, that you're entitled to help, that you're valid as a person. But it took me into my 40s to get any help at all and feel that i deserved it. It took actual supportive people to do that, not some idiots who invalidate your life and experiences as nothing and you as nothing also.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    There were no different rules so sadly I suspect you were simply misadvised.

    Sorry to hear your story. I can relate in a small way to it as I was in my 40s before I finally got properly diagnosed, by accident, and began to process some fairly heavy related personal stuff and deal with all the self-care and validity issues. Can talk about it to anyone now but it took a series of genuinely life changing events and some seriously supportive people. 
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    Yeah well thanks to the lack of support, and even the damage, these organisations offer i'm campaigning to get rid of them.

    I notice the topic saying those on long term disability won't be being assessed any more (doubt that personally) but if they actually bothered using the evidence presented to them in the first place then nobody at all needs assessing. These assessments are just there to save the gov. money, not for actual assessing of anyone in a way that helps them.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    Indeed, original intent was to save 20% on the DLA budget and use those savings to bring in UC. Not going well on either front. 
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    Didn't know that was an actual fact, was just guessing because all that happens is people get denied help after having one rather than get the help they need.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    The 20% was a Maria Miller quote. The UC thing came out after IDS stepped down. 
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    No
    Pip is wrong for people with mental health issues as their main reasons for applying and how it’s affecting their day to day lives is not treated as favourably as physical health issues. However both sets of issues can be treated badly by the system which is like jumping through hoops of paperwork and processes. The strain on community resources like cab and WRO can now mean we cannot get representation at meetings. That’s how bad pip is draining resources. People talk about just giving up on certain benefits on this forum as it’s just too stressful.That’s not a real choice . It’s cruel.
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    Have to say that, whilst I don’t agree with the first part of your post, I’ve never known a time where people felt that not being on benefit and struggling financially was a choice let alone the better choice. Hear it almost every week now. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 142 Listener
    I don’t agree with the first part, I think the PIP2 questionnaire was far better suited to those with mental health issues than DLA ever was, especially the mobility component! xxx
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    No
    Why do people have to disagree? Why not just state your own opinion and respect others? 
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    The 20% was a Maria Miller quote. The UC thing came out after IDS stepped down. 
    I hadn't heard of it at all. Interesting that they admit it.I'm guessing they were hoping to catch out all these benefit cheats they think exist?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    feir said:
    The 20% was a Maria Miller quote. The UC thing came out after IDS stepped down. 
    I hadn't heard of it at all. Interesting that they admit it.I'm guessing they were hoping to catch out all these benefit cheats they think exist?
    Yes, they’re big on fraud and demonising and yet their accounts have just been qualified for the 30th successive year i.e. deemed as unreliable. One of the main reasons? Their figures on under and overpayments don’t add up.

    The 20% figure? Here you go. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jan/17/disibility-living-allowance-overpayment
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    I didn't doubt what you said but that link was interesting. It ended with this also (which backs up what i was thinking as well):

    The scale of the cuts to DLA far outweigh any net overpayments that might be made under the current system. There are sound reasons to reform assessment, such as to better identify people with mental illnesses, but it can't be used as a principle justification for making much larger cuts than reforming this particular point could ever achieve alone. To achieve the 20% cuts the reduction in payments would have to go well beyond this particular cohort of people whose conditions have changed to cut DLA payments more generally.

  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    No
    @mikehughescq and @feir I'm interested in what you both mentioned about getting diagnosed late and dealing with things, including self-care and validity issues. I'm going through the same thing. 43 and finally being diagnosed with C-PTSD (instead of BPD, in addition to, not sure) right now. I neglect myself terribly, and still don't feel that I'm a valid person, with valid problems, although that's been improving, slowly. I'm dealing with a lot of heavy **** with my counsellor, but have a lot more to do. My PIP experience is basically another trauma, and I've gotten a lot worse.... If you have any tips from your experiences, I'd very much appreciate it if you let me know. Books, methods, whatever.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    No books for me. Just talking about it and, somewhat unusually, working it out in public. Was given an opportunity to tell my story and that was liberating and led to other opportunities to do the same in different contexts. Over 8 years I’ve spoken to medical students; school children; genetics professionals; health care scientists; several rooms full of strangers and a sort of work colleague who became a friend when I accidentally discovered they had the same conditions as me. The fact that it wasn’t just me talking - that I had agreed to field questions - meant that each session led to a new question and led me to question myself. The questions raised new issues and I was finally able to process stuff going back years and, yes, talk about it. 

    You’ll notice the gap there of “family”. There’s this huge gap in as much as however much you want family to understand you’ll do well to find one distant cousin to listen less understand. Love my parents but it’s too late for this stuff to compete. I would strongly advise you keep up with the counselling but also find people who’ve had similar experiences. That’s hugely valuable and potentially life-changing. After that, just keep talking. Go find opportunities to talk. Be an expert patient etc. 

    Don’t get me wrong. I still have that sense of being a fraud and some very specific anxieties but it’s amazing how far talking can take you. Good luck.
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    No
    @mikehughescq Thank you. Very much appreciated. My mother doesn't really get it, but she supports me in her way. My Dad has no understanding whatsoever, and was extremely hurtful a few years ago.

    (Possibly triggering....……….
    .
    .
    .
    .
     I live across an ocean from my parents, so they don't know about my self-harm. In an attempt to get across to my Dad how much my MH problems affect me (he thought I should just pull my socks up and march on), I showed him the scars on my arm. He said, "If you're going to kill yourself, let me disown you first. I don't want to be the father of a suicide.") 



    So then I cut my Dad out of my life for 4 years. About 8 months ago he begged to try to repair things, so we're in contact. I laid down some very strict rules/boundaries, and he's followed them so far, but he still doesn't get it, really. 

    I thought my brother got it, as he was there for a lot of it, but a few years ago he minimized something really traumatic that had happened to me, and I haven't talked to him much since. Family, eh? 

    I have a chosen family now, who understand much more. Some of them have been through similar things, some have known others who have been through them. I try not to depend too much on any one person (don't want to burden them), but knowing that people believe me is really good. My counsellor is excellent. Still, I'm 43 and just starting to figure this **** out. I really wish I'd been diagnosed sooner.....

    Thanks, 

    W
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    No
    How do you end up talking to all these people, @mikehughescq ? Sometime down the line, I'd love to use my experience to educate others...
  • WaterLilyWaterLily Member Posts: 55 Courageous
    Yes
    I voted yes to this poll. 

    I was on DLA mobility only. Receiving full award. (Lifetime). 

    Had the system stayed the same, I would probably still be getting the same award. 
    When PIP came in and I filled out the forms, I never expected to receive any more in help than what I was already getting through DLA. (I was also hoping they wouldn’t take it away, either!). 
    The outcome was I was entitled to high mobility and standard rate care and my husband can claim carers allowance. 
    My point is that had PIP never been brought in, I know I would never have reapplied for DLA care component. I never thought I would of been entitled to it,it didn’t even enter my head to apply. 
    🙂

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,007 Disability Gamechanger
    Waylay said:
    How do you end up talking to all these people, @mikehughescq ? Sometime down the line, I'd love to use my experience to educate others...
    Volunteer for research. Ask them questions. Get involved in more research. Keep talking. When people hear your story and it doesn’t go where they expect it to the invitations will start. Look at being a patient participant for your nearest medical school. Same there. People hear you talk and may want you to do so some more.

    Also, in my case, on top of the above, I lucked out and got a drunken invite at a party which I thought would come to nothing but resulted in an email from the persons secretary the following week. 

    I’d also say it’s futile to think in terms of “somewhere down the line”. There is t a magical point you feel fixed or better enough to talk. Throw yourself in and start talking. It’s part of the process in itself and might even be the best part. Cheapest therapy I ever had.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    No
    Waylay said:
    @mikehughescq and @feir I'm interested in what you both mentioned about getting diagnosed late and dealing with things, including self-care and validity issues. I'm going through the same thing. 43 and finally being diagnosed with C-PTSD (instead of BPD, in addition to, not sure) right now. I neglect myself terribly, and still don't feel that I'm a valid person, with valid problems, although that's been improving, slowly. I'm dealing with a lot of heavy **** with my counsellor, but have a lot more to do. My PIP experience is basically another trauma, and I've gotten a lot worse.... If you have any tips from your experiences, I'd very much appreciate it if you let me know. Books, methods, whatever.

    My coping methods were dissociation, avoidance (with a complete lack of trust for just about anyone which sometimes led to personal isolation), then a complete loss of memory happened from my late teens and this helped the most (it did distress me at times but overall it helped). I was totally capable of living my life and having a family just needed some reminders to be able to function 'properly' within society because my memory wasn't great. I wouldn't have classed myself as disabled at all and just as needing a little support occasionally, i have mentioned that i was on disability for life from my GP but this was for a split pelvis and not my mental health. I don't think my mental health disabled me as i could still be a functioning member of society and only interpersonally i was really affected and not to the degree that it concerned me because i have a few family and trusted friends and that's all i needed.

    Several years ago i had a severe trauma that stopped me from being unable to function for a short time, my dissociation went through the roof and i lost a lot of weight really fast (i'm actually sure i had a brief breakdown at this point but i classed it as a breakthrough at the time because of what happened since then). This trauma left me with a lot of questions and i started to look for answers. I found my answers simply by googling things that did not make sense and then spent time elaborating on what i found, i felt i was over my trauma 10 months later. Mostly the work i'd done that 10 months was focused on other people though and not on myself until one day i came across CPTSD through researching what other people had done to me, what was said did seem to apply to me but as it was a new thing i wasn't sure. I'd had a little support from what i'd found by googling others and i felt more capable. I completely messed up though by traumatising myself by interacting with people who would traumatise me further. I stopped that but didn't seek out support and still thought i could do this on my own, my memory function had improved but my mobility was slightly affected so i started studying, not gonna lie my memory wasn't great so although i could study and pass my exams i did struggle to retain information, my concentration was fine though and i was enjoying life again and felt normal and for the first time in my life i had some goals. I decided to try other people again as well, took things slowly with other people this time and at my own pace and felt everything was ok. Then i traumatised myself yet again by getting involved with someone else who was happy to tramatise me, i knew then that i was nowhere near as well as i had thought i was and it was at this time i decided to seek out support.

    The help i sought out was for multiple things, all the things i considered were my issues, so i didn't just seek out help for one thing and not with one person either. I did contact my GP but i'd say my best mental health help has been other people who have just been through the same things, have the same feelings, have an understanding of what has happened to them and why and you can relate to them. But they are supportive and that was the main thing. They validate you as a person.
    There's a lot of free advice and help out there, you have to work out who and what are the best forms of support for yourself. My most helpful were CPTSD facebook groups and some self help people who help anyone for free so that you can work things out for yourself, i relate to Greg Zaffuto and Richard Grannon personally. I don't relate to all self help people i;ve come across so again it is finding the people who are your best form of support.

    Sorry for the overly long reply but i felt like all of this stuff contributed to my getting better mentally. it wasn't just a few people or groups but all this built up to it.

    I was doing well with these forms of support until i became so physically disabled by my spinal stenosis that i was unable to do anything much, my studying stopped also because of the pain affecting my ability to think. my experience in hospital and what happened with the admission and with the discharge have traumatised me so that i'm scared of hospitals now and they trigger anxiety. Mostly it's the lack of any support to retain some quality of life while having my physical disability is why my mental health declined to moderate depression, which is getting worse and has been bordering on suicide idealisation for some time now. My kids are my physical support now, so is my ex but he doesn't really want to do it and i left him because he was never someone i could rely on so i didn't expect him to want to help me either. A living death is not enjoyable for me, i don't think i will leave my kids to fend for themselves but i'm well aware that there is no proper support for myself and it's unlikely to ever come about. Drugs will probably be the answer so that i can tune out this existence until i feel capable of fighting for myself. i'm hoping to be able to get involved with people who can change the system and lawyers for my own personal circumstances because there has been so many failings when it comes to my care it's unreal. I'm already involved with people who are campaigning for the right to euthanasia because i feel like there is where i can and should focus now.


  • AlfieboyAlfieboy Member Posts: 4 Listener
    edited July 2018
    Yes
    PIP vs DLA - Aren't many of us missing the REAL point of the exercise?

    The DWP rhetoric is this; under the previous "Disability Model" (DLA) those who had been diagnosed with an illness or health condition that was deemed to be a "disability" were pretty much guaranteed a DLA award when, in truth, many of these illnesses and health conditions, especially in the early years after diagnosis, do not render the sufferer disabled or incapacitated to the extent where they are genuinely unable to remain in work and otherwise cope more than adequately with most day-to-day functioning. 

    In 2003 I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease which is officially defined as a "critical illness" and I continued working fulltime for 8 years after diagnosis.  I could have played my "disability card" from day one and the DWP would have awarded DLA without question and my occupational pension providers would have coughed up earlier than they did, but my country, my pride, my work ethic, my employers, the Inland Revenue and my self worth and esteem got another 8 years which, to me, was infinitely more important and valuable than any state handout.

    The DWP policy shift from DLA to a "Personal Independence Model"  is, apparently, to recognise the fact that "disability" and "incapacity" do not always go hand in hand immediately after a diagnosis of whatever and in many cases it NEVER does.  I believe the DWP shift to PIP was a massive kneejerk acknowledgement of the DLA system buckling under the weight from those who were simply playing the game.  The DWP intend a relatively clean slate and are clearly determined not to go down the same road as before.  However, the twist in all of this (isn't there always a twist!) is PIP is wrongly marketed as a benefit that is less interested in a persons diagnosis and more interested in how a persons health condition affects their day to functioning, when in truth claimants applying for PIP and/or ESA and claimants previously in receipt of DLA who apply for PIP that hold a weak diagnosis or a diagnosis of "opinion", and by that I mean a diagnosis for which there is no supporting empirical clinical test that absolutely confirms the presence thereof, such as ME, CFS, Stress Disorder, Fibromyalgia and the like are often perceived by the DWP as NO diagnosis.  It can be no coincidence that so many claimants suffering from such conditions are being refused, or their previous DLA award receiving little or no consideration under PIP rules. 

    IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN, AND IT ALWAYS WILL BE, ABOUT THE CREDIBILITY OF THE CLAIMANTS SUPPORTING MEDICAL EVIDENCE. 

    Similarly, claimants are encouraged by the DWP to include as much information on their claim form as possible under the guise of it being a "self assessment" process - it is not and it makes no difference as the DWP simply do not take the claimants word for anything anymore, they've been there before and way too many people took advantage - I am not suggesting anyone reading this falls into that category, but we are all gown ups on this forum so let's be honest shall we!

    While I do not buy into the PIP rhetoric given by the DWP whatsoever, I applaud the shift from DLA to PIP because, and only because, our disability benefits system needed a proper shake up and a good weeding out and that is what's happening. 

    We never hear about claimants who now receive a higher award under PIP than they received under the DLA criteria because they have now been reassessed and their condition has genuinely worsened over time.  Most people who were receipt of DLA and saw their condition significantly worsen were too frightened to ask the DWP to re assess their claim for fear of "rocking the boat" which is so very wrong on every level.

    We never hear about the claimants who have been treated kindly and with dignity by the DWP and their Assessment Providers and received the awards they genuinely should have, which is the vast majority and those who genuinely slip the net invariably have a successful Appeal Tribunal.
     
    We only ever hear claimants bleating their PIP claim was refused or their award is lesser now than they used to get on DLA.  Surely if the latter is the case this can only mean they were awarded more for however long than they should have been as they are clearly more " independent" than they were perceived as being under the disability model which can hardly be a cause for complaint - unless it is all about, and only about, the money!  

    Those claiming ESA/PIP for all the right reasons and have legitimate supporting medical evidence, have nothing to fear.

    In the real world, this current system could not be fairer and anything less would result in a "free for all" (literally)...…. Just like before!




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