PIP appeals- CAB no longer helping

scouser1977

Hi any advice please, the CAB told me to apply for pip 5 years ago, so I did an on the day of the appeal they said they couldn't represent me, so I had to go alone and was refused. Then last year a different CAB told me to try again an that they would help me, so again I applied on the 8th may last year, an just got my date for the hearing an again the person from the CAB have said they can't represent, as they don't work on that day, so she's told me to go alone or postpone it, which is some think I don't really want to do as I've been waiting 14 months so far, i am so angry with them as they talked me into applying for it again. Thanks 

Chloe_Scope

Hi @scouser1977 thank you for sharing this with us today. I am sorry to hear that you have had such a hard time in getting PIP! I know many of the community members will be able to relate and emphasise with your situation. It must be very annoying that CAB have left you again. Is there anyone else who could support you through this?

markyboy

You can ask for a paper hearing and present your case in writing i did this and won it's not for everybody but it is less stressful 

April2018mom

You might be able to ask for a hearing. Present your case to them- lay out all of the facts clearly and give examples. Tell them why you need the financial support as well. Alternatively you can do it by letter much less complicated and tiring. Either way please do keep us updated. 

poppy123456

Only problem is with CAB is they don't have any funding to represent people at Tribunal and i believe a lot of them have stopped doing this now.

Do you have anyone else that can go with you, a family member or friend? Yes you can ask for a paper based decision but appearing in person will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour. Have you sent in evidence to support your claim?

mikehughescq

Look at whether you have a local law centre, independent advice centre, TUC centre or local authority welfare rights service. A paper hearing is a bad idea as the win rate is less than 8% compared to 71% overall.

scouser1977

Okay thanks everyone for your advice .

Yadnad

mikehughescq said:

Look at whether you have a local law centre, independent advice centre, TUC centre or local authority welfare rights service. A paper hearing is a bad idea as the win rate is less than 8% compared to 71% overall.

and as you have already advised the 71% rate is only for represented appeals. For non represented appeals the rate falls to below 50%

Waylay

If nothing else, can you get a bolshy friend to come with you?

mikehughescq

Waylay said:

If nothing else, can you get a bolshy friend to come with you?

It sounds like a good idea but it rarely is. There’s a clear division between an observer who can watch proceedings; a witness who can give their own evidence and a representative who can present the legal case and give evidence if it’s directly known to them. There is no actual role for someone who wants to come and speak on behalf of someone who is already there unless they’re a representative; an interpreter or an appointee at minimum.

So, the problem with a bolshy friend is that they never understand those distinctions because they’re not explained anywhere.

They might agree to go in as an observer without understanding that when they desperately want to chip in to help they will be immediately be silenced.

They might want to go in as a witness because it sounds supportive but they may never have seen most of their friends daily living needs.

They may want to go in as a representative but know nothing of the law or the tribunal process and thus have the potential to mess it up big time. The obvious example of the latter being the claims that the appellant is going to be disabled all their life so the decision is clearly wrong or the claim that the appellant has got worse since the date of claim which instantly leads to a rejection of the appeal abd advice to go make a new claim because the tribunal can’t award from a date after the date of claim other than in very specific circumstances. The appellant may indeed have gotten worse and a new claim may succeed instantly but if they would have qualified on their original claim then all that money has been lost unless an appeal to the UT wins and the matter goes back to a FTT. That’s probably an 18 month delay at minimum. 

So, yes, bolshy friend if all else fails but, if all eise fails, you’re often better going by yourself. Bolshiness in itself is a huge problem. Tribunals are inquisitorial not adversarial. Someone coming in shouting the odds is rarely tolerated. It’s wholly in contradiction of the idea of an informal question and answer session. 

Matilda

I'm not sure representation helps much except for moral support as the panel will expect you to answer all the questions yourself.

PIP is for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to all stages of PIP including appeals.  They also publish their own Disability Rights Handbook which has a guide to PIP appeals procedure.  £18.50 from DR site or probably also available in your local reference library.

mikehughescq

Matilda said:

I'm not sure representation helps much except for moral support as the panel will expect you to answer all the questions yourself.

PIP is for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to all stages of PIP including appeals.  They also publish their own Disability Rights Handbook which has a guide to PIP appeals procedure.  £18.50 from DR site or probably also available in your local reference library.

The perils of ignoring people exposed full on Continuing to believe that your lived experience and success means that everybody should follow you and potentially harm their own case in the process.

No, representation does not help at all! I would use a “roll eyes” emoji at this point but as I can’t read them because of my VI just go with the gist of what I’m saying.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/182311/foi-80708-annex-a.xls

Yadnad

Matilda said:

I'm not sure representation helps much except for moral support as the panel will expect you to answer all the questions yourself.

PIP is for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to all stages of PIP including appeals.  They also publish their own Disability Rights Handbook which has a guide to PIP appeals procedure.  £18.50 from DR site or probably also available in your local reference library.

.

I appealed against a Council Tax benefit claim. On my own I genuinely believe that knowing nothing of the law and how it worked that I would have lost big time. I had legal representation and for approx. 50% of the hearing it was him, the solicitor for the council and the judge doing all of the talking. Law books were examined etc etc. Because of my rep I won £1,000's!

scouser1977

Thanks for all the advice, I think I will be going to the appeal with my 24 year old son, and just hope for the best, the lady from the CAB said she told the court that she doesn't work on that day, but when I rang the court to ask why they gave us a day she didn't work, they said she didn't notify them at all .

mikehughescq

Yadnad said:

Matilda said:

I'm not sure representation helps much except for moral support as the panel will expect you to answer all the questions yourself.

PIP is for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to all stages of PIP including appeals.  They also publish their own Disability Rights Handbook which has a guide to PIP appeals procedure.  £18.50 from DR site or probably also available in your local reference library.

.

I appealed against a Council Tax benefit claim. On my own I genuinely believe that knowing nothing of the law and how it worked that I would have lost big time. I had legal representation and for approx. 50% of the hearing it was him, the solicitor for the council and the judge doing all of the talking. Law books were examined etc etc. Because of my rep I won £1,000's!

I hope it doesn’t happen obviously but I wonder what will happen if @Matilda gets reviewed; ends up back at appeal; follows her own advice; goes unrepresented... and loses. I wonder if her insistence that anyone can do it with a DRH will persist?

Yadnad

mikehughescq said:

Yadnad said:

Matilda said:

I'm not sure representation helps much except for moral support as the panel will expect you to answer all the questions yourself.

PIP is for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to all stages of PIP including appeals.  They also publish their own Disability Rights Handbook which has a guide to PIP appeals procedure.  £18.50 from DR site or probably also available in your local reference library.

.

I appealed against a Council Tax benefit claim. On my own I genuinely believe that knowing nothing of the law and how it worked that I would have lost big time. I had legal representation and for approx. 50% of the hearing it was him, the solicitor for the council and the judge doing all of the talking. Law books were examined etc etc. Because of my rep I won £1,000's!

I hope it doesn’t happen obviously but I wonder what will happen if @Matilda gets reviewed; ends up back at appeal; follows her own advice; goes unrepresented... and loses. I wonder if her insistence that anyone can do it with a DRH will persist?

I hope for the same. It may not happen that way for her and she sails through with no issues.
What I can say for a certainty is that I was amazed how technical my appeal had become and how well my rep (university law school lecturer) argued with both of them pointing out how the guidance that is followed by the local authority when assessing CT benefit claims is completely at odds with the legislation. Even the judge commended my rep on setting the council straight as to how it should be carried out. 
On my own I would not have had that ability through lack of knowledge.

So yes having a qualified rep looking after the legal side of the appeal proceedings goes a long long way to getting justice.
Just a shame that the uni no longer does these sort of representations and the lack of resources elsewhere. It was the CAB who said that they had no idea what could be done and referred me to the uni. 

mikehughescq

The thing is too that once you have a decent rep. things become easier all round. You have someone to ask what letters mean; the what ifs evaporate and what appears complex and incomprehensible can usually be boiled down to 3 main points. I think the most complex appeal I ever had could still be boiled down to 5 things.

Yadnad

mikehughescq said:

The thing is too that once you have a decent rep. things become easier all round. You have someone to ask what letters mean; the what ifs evaporate and what appears complex and incomprehensible can usually be boiled down to 3 main points. I think the most complex appeal I ever had could still be boiled down to 5 things.

My rep worked it down to just one issue in the end. Was the council entitled to take into consideration an income source or not. Their guidance said yes, the legislation and case law said no.

scouser1977

Hi all went for my appeal today, had to go alone with my son as the lady from CAB let me down, well it went much better than I thought, was in and out within 25 mins and was awarded daily living component with 10 points, happy happy days .

Matilda

Congrats!

debbiedo49

Congratulations