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PIP tribunal fail... Help!!

KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
I have just received a letter from the tribunal I attended yesterday denying me daily care but awarding me mobility. 
All the evidence i gave them, the doctors letters, the early help case assessment and young carers case worker.  Everything and the fact I was a wreck throughout the whole 45 minutes.. And they have refused it 

I desperately need the care element, can anyone help me / advise me on what I need to do next? 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    I'm sorry to hear this. You now have 28 days to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings. From this you'll need to find an error in law in making the decision, with the error in law them i'm afraid you won't be able to appeal the decision. You'll need to find someone that knows what they're doing to look at both of these once you receive them.

    Re-apply will be of little use too, if you use the same evidence you used for this claim. Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Kttyn and a warm welcome to the community, I am so sorry to hear this! Everything @poppy123456 has said is correct. Here is also a link to the appeal section of the Scope website, hope this helps. Many of our members have been through this process so if you need anything at all then please do not hesitate to be in touch. We all wish you the very best of luck!
    Community Partner
    Scope

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  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Hi @poppy123456 @Chloe_Scope thank you. What's an error in law?  I just don't understand how they could disregard all the evidence they were given.  Plus I sent more the week before and they said they hadn't received it, then at the end of the 45 minutes told me it had just come through.. But I got the letter the very next day? The daily care 'dr' asked me like 2 questions....

    This has all been going on since July 31st last year :'( I'm almost at breaking point.. Esp as after esa messing up from last June I've only just had my medical  and they have deemed me fit for work .. Again disregarding all the medical evidence I had provided. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    HI,
    An error in law means they would have had to have used the wrong legislation or interpreted the legislation wrongly. You need to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings, as stated above.

    Did you have a representative or did you do all of it yourself?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    No I did it all myself :'( I will request them.. Do I ring the number on top of the letter I received today? They really like preying on the vulnerable don't they. :(
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I believe you need to email the Tribunal to request both of these.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Ok I'll do that now.. May I keep this thread open if that's ok? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It may take a while to receive both of those once they've been requested because there's no timescales. Threads aren't closed unless there's a problem, so yes it will be kept open. Good luck!
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    So... Failing to have regards to material evidence is an 'error in law'  or being influenced by immaterial evidence? Such as the fact I went on holiday, even though it was with a carer and my sons who are my young carers.  Well they have done those things then.   It's not all hopeless then?. 


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    As i said you'll need expert advise regarding this when you receive the statement of reasons, I'm not expert.

    It's great to have evidence to support a claim but if that evidence doesn't prove the descriptors apply then it's pointless having the evidence. An error in law is difficult to find and that's why you need expert advice because there may not be any errors.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    1) Breach of natural justice.
    2) Insufficient findings of fact.
    3) Perversity.

    ... and the 2 others I can never remember as I age :)
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I have just sent an email asking it to be 'set aside'... Something that's listed in the letter I got... Either for the decision to be changed or a new tribunal. The reason being I sent all my extra info before the deadline but the judge didn't get it till 10 minutes before my tribunal ended. I got the letter of their decision the next day so I don't think they took any of it into account. What do you all think ?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    If the documentation was received before the end of the tribunal then it will either have been not admitted, wh8ch they would have says at the time, or admitted. If it was admitted then it will have been taken into account and the only was of proving otherwise is by requesting a statement of reasons and record of proceedings. It’s not a set aside unless DWP weren’t present and haven’t had a chance to comment. 
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Dwp wernt present x 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    Hmm. If they admitted the evidence and DWP didn’t have an opportunity to comment then there’s a possibility of a set aside but DWP aren’t going to push for it and your earlier posts suggested you’d thrown a lot of evidence in at the last minute without necessarily understanding the impact. As the tribunal admitted it they presumably didn’t see it as making any difference and saw it as pointless to adjourn to give DWP a chance to comment so you’re back to error of law and the UT. 

    Had the evidence been a game changer then you’d almost certainly get DWP requesting a set aside if an award resulted. 
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I didn't throw it in at the last minute... This had been going on since July last year.  Eventually they responded to a letter stating how my health was deteriorating with it all and then boom. . My tribunal date was 4 weeks away with them needing extra info within 3 weeks  
    I had the letters from my doctor all ready I was just waiting for the mental health team. And I sent it all in a week before like they told me to.  :(
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 2018
    You said the tribunal judge didn’t get it until 10 minutes before the end?
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    They told me as we were finished that the emails I had sent over a week previously had just arrived in their inbox.  I had all the same info with me but they said they didn't have time to go through it.  So I asked them at the end of they were going to go through the evidence i has sent and they said I would get the decision by the end of the week  I got it the next day with us really suspicious as they had tribunals all day. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    How do you know that all of your panel had tribunals the next day? 

    Nothing suspicious in the end of week/next day comment. Most tribunals make same day decisions but they’re typed and distributed by the clerk and the speed of that depends on whether they’re doing more outdoor clerking the next day or heading back to HQ. Unless they specifically discuss it with the clerk most tribunals wouldn’t know what the clerk is doing next. 

    If they had the evidence and didn’t want to go through it on the day that says 

    a) out of time.
    b) the evidence they had seen and heard went overwhelmingly against you and anything new was unlikely to change their decision. 

    Both of the above could be errors of law (breach of natural justice/failing to take into account relevant considerations) but they’re not ordinarily set aside territory. However, sometimes a DJ will set aside a tribunal even when they shouldn’t just because they have issues with the judge or wish to make a point.
  • Kellans38Kellans38 Member Posts: 10 Listener
    I am going through same I just been to court she had not change wht benefits said I had been called three mouths early 2 get assment and she said she had only just got my information  but it's not new I have heart failure seen 2016 so where she said going of that she didn't even get me on the bed and I just been through court and they said I was fit 4 work I don't get any of it because I have always had same but 4 benefit saying they just got it I no there lieing because I always had same and all my notes but november  last year they taken me out the group and in 2 working and I no it's wrong and courts didn't look at anything what was In front of them and they new of my problems so how benfit r saying all this now and it's new information I no it's not when it happened in 2016 and was all sent 2 benefits and courts but I don't no where I go now just wait on on them but it's still not going 2 help me when I should near of gone through it anyway from start because of my heart problems like she said I shouldn't of been call up there because of my health but it's not  change seen I was taken out the group courts still didn't change disgusting  what they do to people
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    How do you know that all of your panel had tribunals the next day? 

    Nothing suspicious in the end of week/next day comment. Most tribunals make same day decisions but they’re typed and distributed by the clerk and the speed of that depends on whether they’re doing more outdoor clerking the next day or heading back to HQ. Unless they specifically discuss it with the clerk most tribunals wouldn’t know what the clerk is doing next. 

    If they had the evidence and didn’t want to go through it on the day that says 

    a) out of time.
    b) the evidence they had seen and heard went overwhelmingly against you and anything new was unlikely to change their decision. 

    Both of the above could be errors of law (breach of natural justice/failing to take into account relevant considerations) but they’re not ordinarily set aside territory. However, sometimes a DJ will set aside a tribunal even when they shouldn’t just because they have issues with the judge or wish to make a point.
    It was up on the board that I was the first of the tribunals that day.. And they were every hour from 10am to 5pm. For them to get their decision in the post for me to get the next day is cutting it really tight.

    The evidence in my favour was overwhelming.  My early help case worker even wrote a statement that should my children have to continue in the role as my main carers then there may be a child protection issue... Nothing against me, I'm trying my hardest but I'm not well... They even had that and still denied it ..

    The guy sat in the middle was a complete ass..... Wasn't interested in what I was saying and kept putting my points down :( 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    This is a PIP thread. You appear to be talking about ESA.
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    This is a PIP thread. You appear to be talking about ESA.
    No. . I'm talking about my pip tribunal 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    Kttyn said:
    How do you know that all of your panel had tribunals the next day? 

    Nothing suspicious in the end of week/next day comment. Most tribunals make same day decisions but they’re typed and distributed by the clerk and the speed of that depends on whether they’re doing more outdoor clerking the next day or heading back to HQ. Unless they specifically discuss it with the clerk most tribunals wouldn’t know what the clerk is doing next. 

    If they had the evidence and didn’t want to go through it on the day that says 

    a) out of time.
    b) the evidence they had seen and heard went overwhelmingly against you and anything new was unlikely to change their decision. 

    Both of the above could be errors of law (breach of natural justice/failing to take into account relevant considerations) but they’re not ordinarily set aside territory. However, sometimes a DJ will set aside a tribunal even when they shouldn’t just because they have issues with the judge or wish to make a point.
    It was up on the board that I was the first of the tribunals that day.. And they were every hour from 10am to 5pm. For them to get their decision in the post for me to get the next day is cutting it really tight.

    The evidence in my favour was overwhelming.  My early help case worker even wrote a statement that should my children have to continue in the role as my main carers then there may be a child protection issue... Nothing against me, I'm trying my hardest but I'm not well... They even had that and still denied it ..

    The guy sat in the middle was a complete ass..... Wasn't interested in what I was saying and kept putting my points down :( 
    Tribunals run from 10 to 12 and then 2 to 4 everywhere. They make most decisions on the day; issue a summary decision and usually give a quick verbal summary too unless way behind. Clerk types the summary decision up at the end of each case. Almost no decisions are not made on the day and all will be either given to a DWP PO on the day if one is in attendance, or posted out that night. 

    It is very rare for someone to lose a case when the evidence is truly overwhelming. Your example of the early help case worker is a fine example. It is literally nothing to the point and the tribunal will also have smelt possible BS.

    Firstly, the only relevance of the care provided by your children is whether their assistance scores points under specific activities or not. Secondly, young carers are not a child protection issue unless something else is going on. If that is what you think amounts to good evidence then, to be blunt, you were poorly advised by someone somewhere along the line.
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Kttyn said:
    How do you know that all of your panel had tribunals the next day? 

    Nothing suspicious in the end of week/next day comment. Most tribunals make same day decisions but they’re typed and distributed by the clerk and the speed of that depends on whether they’re doing more outdoor clerking the next day or heading back to HQ. Unless they specifically discuss it with the clerk most tribunals wouldn’t know what the clerk is doing next. 

    If they had the evidence and didn’t want to go through it on the day that says 

    a) out of time.
    b) the evidence they had seen and heard went overwhelmingly against you and anything new was unlikely to change their decision. 

    Both of the above could be errors of law (breach of natural justice/failing to take into account relevant considerations) but they’re not ordinarily set aside territory. However, sometimes a DJ will set aside a tribunal even when they shouldn’t just because they have issues with the judge or wish to make a point.
    It was up on the board that I was the first of the tribunals that day.. And they were every hour from 10am to 5pm. For them to get their decision in the post for me to get the next day is cutting it really tight.

    The evidence in my favour was overwhelming.  My early help case worker even wrote a statement that should my children have to continue in the role as my main carers then there may be a child protection issue... Nothing against me, I'm trying my hardest but I'm not well... They even had that and still denied it ..

    The guy sat in the middle was a complete ass..... Wasn't interested in what I was saying and kept putting my points down :( 
    Tribunals run from 10 to 12 and then 2 to 4 everywhere. They make most decisions on the day; issue a summary decision and usually give a quick verbal summary too unless way behind. Clerk types the summary decision up at the end of each case. Almost no decisions are not made on the day and all will be either given to a DWP PO on the day if one is in attendance, or posted out that night. 

    It is very rare for someone to lose a case when the evidence is truly overwhelming. Your example of the early help case worker is a fine example. It is literally nothing to the point and the tribunal will also have smelt possible BS.

    Firstly, the only relevance of the care provided by your children is whether their assistance scores points under specific activities or not. Secondly, young carers are not a child protection issue unless something else is going on. If that is what you think amounts to good evidence then, to be blunt, you were poorly advised by someone somewhere along the line.
    I'm going to stop you there as I really don't like your tone.. I had doctors letters stating how ill I was.. Mental health team, early help n young carers team... Not of them understand why I were denied daily living.  I'm not trying to pull a con . Who the hell would put themselves through all this for 14 months if it wasn't genuine? 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 2018
    How ill you are is not relevant.The consequences of your ill health on the specific functionality which scores points is what matters. The reason none of them understand why you were denied daily living is most likely that none of them understands how the points scoring works in the first place. 

    At no point have I inferred you were trying to ‘pull a con”. The point I was making is that the evidence you think was great was misdirected and transparently wrong. Young carers, once identified, get assessed and supported and not threatened with there being a child protection issue unless there is some other reason for that to be the case. 

    That guy in the middle you describe as a “complete ass” was a solicitor or barrister with at least 10 years post qualifying experience. Many of them will have worked for local authorities and several will have worked in child protection. Telling them that having your children continue to provide care may become a child protection issue potentially lacks credibility and consequently could undermine other elements of your case. 

    My “tone” in this instance is trying to point out that what you think is black and white and really obvious absolutely isn’t. 
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry @Kttyn if you are feeling unhappy as we know this can be a very emotive subject. Also please remember we come here for advice to give it or receive it. We are not here to upset folks. The written word can be a powerful thing good and bad. Btw my son ( 19) is my carer at home and I didn't take him to tribunal as I was aware that he could blame himself if I failed. It's so hard to have to involve your children and I know I sometimes think is it fair to him? You do feel is this "normal" and will he be classed as vulnerable? Off topic soz.
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I'm sorry @Kttyn if you are feeling unhappy as we know this can be a very emotive subject. Also please remember we come here for advice to give it or receive it. We are not here to upset folks. The written word can be a powerful thing good and bad. Btw my son ( 19) is my carer at home and I didn't take him to tribunal as I was aware that he could blame himself if I failed. It's so hard to have to involve your children and I know I sometimes think is it fair to him? You do feel is this "normal" and will he be classed as vulnerable? Off topic soz.
    Thank you hunni.. 
    Its bad enough feeling like a Failure .... But to then have people throw your disability into your face... This country is truly messed up :'( x but I'm the same.... I refused to take one of my sons with me because, well I was a mess..... Now I think I should of done, but what that would of done to him :' (
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    The tribunal have very specific guidance about whether children should be admitted to tribunals and the general line is that they should not.
  • sarah50sarah50 Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    It strikes at the heart of the problem doesn't it that vulnerable people need law degrees to understand very specific terminology, to know what evidence they need to collect, to know how to present it, to be able get the benefit that they need to be able to pay for the advocacy to navigate a system which is so prejudiced against them.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq my child is 19. Of course I don't mean a young child
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • KttynKttyn Member Posts: 17 Connected
    It's truly diabolical ..... My carers are 12 and 9.... I had mounds of evidence from my gp and the early help assessment team and all I was refused 😢I wouldn't mind so much but I'm not lazy or faking.... So it pissses me off that I play by the rules yet I still get refused 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    My post wasn’t aimed at you @debbiedo49
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    What can your GP say about your ability to cook, eat, bathe, dress, budget etc? They can talk about your diagnosis, symptoms, medication, treatment and prognosis but anything they say on the above is either outside their knowledge or reperating what you’ve told them. The latter might add some credibility to your case but it’s not medical evidence, It’s the equivalent of getting your neighbour to write a note. Evidence from your 12 year old, in writing, would potentially have had more credibility. PIP is not and never has been about medical evidence.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    sarah50 said:
    It strikes at the heart of the problem doesn't it that vulnerable people need law degrees to understand very specific terminology, to know what evidence they need to collect, to know how to present it, to be able get the benefit that they need to be able to pay for the advocacy to navigate a system which is so prejudiced against them.
    Sarah - a girl of my own heart!! This has/is/does niggle the hell out of me too.. The more I read the more it seems important that claimants have to be quasi Welfare Rights Officers in their own right if they want to argue points or even attempt to make a claim.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
     Evidence from your 12 year old, in writing, would potentially have had more credibility. PIP is not and never has been about medical evidence.
    Now that is going too far surely?

    So my grandson who is 13 if promised a new game for his xbox  would write a letter that would see the tears rolling down the Judge's cheeks! - Evidence?

    What I think the claimants do need is simple understandable English coming from the  DWP so that it is easy to understand the system. None of this case law or definitions of words - it should be written as it is so that (in my case at least) that the over 65's who are ill, disabled etc can get to grips with a simple system.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope. Completely missed my point which was a simple one about the usefulness of evidence not about who should supply it.

    As regards your last paragraph I’d say we have 70 years of evidence, of which UC is the latest example, that you can have simplicity or fairness but not both. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope. Completely missed my point which was a simple one about the usefulness of evidence not about who should supply it.

    As regards your last paragraph I’d say we have 70 years of evidence, of which UC is the latest example, that you can have simplicity or fairness but not both. 
    Ah yes I can see that now.

    So simplicity and ease of application, assessment and decision is not possible if fairness is then added into the equation.
    No wonder I have had 23 years of aggravation from the DWP, where I have lost my temper with assessors, where I have written letters of complaint that are never answered. 
    I have always believed that when dealing with any problem that if you break it down into it's simplest form so that it is easily understood everyone involved will see that fairness becomes the norm.

    This is the very reason why it is important for everyone to access good advice and help all the way through the procedure - my understanding of it must be common amongst other claimants.

    It's like you said in another of your threads to understand the difference between continual and continuous. Only when the penny drops eventually will people see things differently. My penny is still hanging there with all of the information and advice that I am reading on this site but unable to still fully understand how it all fits together. It's either a mental blockage thing, or maybe a side effect of my damaged brain or maybe it is the simple answer of getting old, I don't know.

    And if I don't know and remain confused my automatic reaction is to do nothing for fear of being seen to be stupid or ignorant or feel rejected by others around me. It's very much like not willing to make claims for benefit without first knowing how the system works and that I would have an good chance of it being awarded without having to fight for it if I did make the claim. I have never made any speculative claims for help - preferring to know as much about the subject being applied for as anyone else.
  • sarah50sarah50 Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    So you state on the forms within the medical descriptors they have chosen for you all the things you can and cannot do and why, they say back this up with evidence, I keep being told that medical evidence is not the B all and end all. But if someone like my carer/husband confirms my situation that carries no more weight than a note from my mum probably because he's lying as well (lets face it most of us are swinging the lead) My GP can't comment on anything other than his medical opinion, but PIP is about how a disability impacts on daily life. You have a face to face with someone who is appointed by dwp who is not qualified in anyway to judge you but at least Dwp will believe what they write down and then you find out the assessor has not accurately written what you've said or demonstrated even lied or contradicted themselves. So your PIP gets stopped after a ridiculously worrying stressful long wait, you find your condition/ mental health has deteriorated and now you are worried sick that you can't afford to keep a roof over your head or even feed yourself. Then when you couldn't get any lower, you are expected to go through a complicated procedure of MR and Tribunal but if nothing you've said or done before has been enough then what hope? We are working on chance or luck
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    sarah50 said:
    So you state on the forms within the medical descriptors they have chosen for you all the things you can and cannot do and why, they say back this up with evidence, I keep being told that medical evidence is not the B all and end all. But if someone like my carer/husband confirms my situation that carries no more weight than a note from my mum probably because he's lying as well (lets face it most of us are swinging the lead) My GP can't comment on anything other than his medical opinion, but PIP is about how a disability impacts on daily life. You have a face to face with someone who is appointed by dwp who is not qualified in anyway to judge you but at least Dwp will believe what they write down and then you find out the assessor has not accurately written what you've said or demonstrated even lied or contradicted themselves. So your PIP gets stopped after a ridiculously worrying stressful long wait, you find your condition/ mental health has deteriorated and now you are worried sick that you can't afford to keep a roof over your head or even feed yourself. Then when you couldn't get any lower, you are expected to go through a complicated procedure of MR and Tribunal but if nothing you've said or done before has been enough then what hope? We are working on chance or luck
    I agree with you entirely. To solve all of these problems people are advised to get a professional involved even before you think about filling in the PIP2 form. Great advice that you have someone at your side all the way through to the Tribunal if need be.

    For one reason or another such people that used to offer that all in one support are long gone. try getting a face to face appointment within 2 weeks at a CAB only to be told sorry we are too busy and then to find out that they no longer will give support at a Tribunal hearing.
    Even harder try finding a good advisor - they are like gold dust.

    In the meantime we all muddle through thinking that we know what we are doing only to find out later down the line that we don't.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,364 Disability Gamechanger
    Benefit decisions are made on the balance of probabilities so non-medical evidence can easily be used to discredit medical evidence. The issue is about what your husband or neighbour writes rather than the fact it was them that wrote it. 

    I keep hearing this thing about medical descriptors. They’re not medical at all. They’re functional. You score points for not being able to perform a specific activity reliably. 

    I also keep hearing this statement that HCPs are not qualified to judge but it makes no sense. They don’t get enough training but they are absolutely qualified and medical training is certainly not required to do functional assessments. How does a physio assess what their clients need from them? Er... Ditto an OT abd indeed paramedics. It’s a transferable skill and completely relevant. The issue lies with the software they use; the time they’re allocated and a DWP culture which does not accurately weigh evidence.

    Finally, it’s worth saying that such is the misunderstanding of the role of the HCP that people genuinely believe there’s some sort of obligation for them to note down what you say. There isn’t. They are obligated to listen; note what they feel is relevant and form their own judgement. 
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