Is it worth combatting Assessor's lies to use as example of how my disability effects me? — Scope | Disability forum
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Is it worth combatting Assessor's lies to use as example of how my disability effects me?

PIPQuestions
PIPQuestions Member Posts: 32 Connected
edited December 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Eg. Assessor claimed I communited well and thorough about my problems and did not need prompting. He also claimed no physical disabilities were present preventing this (twisting the truth, my problems are mental)

This is a lie, I struggle to communicate properly due to my mental health and this was once again present at assessment (one, two word answers, I struggle massively to hold a proper conversation). I also prompted the person with me to answer a few questions, and the assessor had to prompt me for an answer because I was so anxious I "shut down". However he claims this did not happen.

Is it worth mentioning this is how it effects me and this was also present at assessment (despite his fabricated claims), as a double whammy (to call him out on his lies and to also prove how it effects me) or would this be a his word vs mine and mines being worthless, so I would need another example ?


Comments

  • wilko
    wilko Member Posts: 2,413 Disability Gamechanger
    Until all PIP acessments are recorded these situations will continue to happen, it’s going to be your word against the acessors. The chances of anybody winning or proving the acessor lied if it went to court is slim to say the best. It would be the ideal thing if an acessor or several where prosecuted for their lies and fabrications written in their reports and maybe the PIP acessments would be more honest and less, fewer MRs and Appeals would be heard or needed.
  • PIPQuestions
    PIPQuestions Member Posts: 32 Connected
    edited December 2018
    wilko said:
    Until all PIP acessments are recorded these situations will continue to happen, it’s going to be your word against the acessors. The chances of anybody winning or proving the acessor lied if it went to court is slim to say the best. It would be the ideal thing if an acessor or several where prosecuted for their lies and fabrications written in their reports and maybe the PIP acessments would be more honest and less, fewer MRs and Appeals would be heard or needed.
    I see. I also have some other, indendent evidence which would support my claims that I plan to send. I just don't know if I should explain that these things were present at the assessment aswell, which is true, but as the assessor lied it's my word vs his. But then if I don't combat it I feel like they will take his word as truth and believe I'm the healthiest person on this planet with no issues what so ever( I wish!!), so I should mention it even if in a throwaway comment.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,871 Disability Gamechanger
    Concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you did that activity is the best way to request the MR. They won't be interested in any lies that may have been told in the report.
  • mattw84
    mattw84 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Well watch this space my tribunal tomorrow the defence I have is based on the assessors lies, 

    also so I only spotted this last night on my reports but well worth reading every detail... on my report in the introduction the assessor listed my job as admin manager which is correct I was at the time yet her explanation on the physical questions listed me as a shelf stacker in a physical role so she changed my job role physical questions she put me as shelf stacker and mental questions I was referred to as a manager. At least that evidence I have in writing.

    My assement was attended with my support worker so it’s our word against hers which also helps 

    will see how tomorrow goes I guess 

    good luck with yours 
  • PIPQuestions
    PIPQuestions Member Posts: 32 Connected
    Concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you did that activity is the best way to request the MR. They won't be interested in any lies that may have been told in the report.
    The last time I did this was probably with my assessor tho, which he is claiming lies. So your post is contradicting the situation , to explain recent examples of what happens when I do these things I would need to combat the assessors lies.

    I do have letters from Hospital trying to issue an ASBO as a result of my behaviour of being anxious and around other people, evidence of walking out of a hospital ward and going to my older ward due to anxiety, walking out of hospital completely due to anxiety,  also being given diazepam to calm me down this is an example of what happens when I mix with other people what it leads to ( this was when I had someone with me too, but I think a lot of it was building up from being alone as hospital would only allow visitors during certain hours and it just got too much), which can be used for both communicating and mixing with others. I will be sending a copy of this also. I do not go anywhere without someone with me as it is too stressful and causes me to be extremely anxious so I don't have many examples of what happens when I don't have people around me. Even with relatives near me I still have a lot of trouble communicating and problems with anxiety but I don't feel as anxious as I would without and I feel "safer".
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    You reduce the weight given to the HCP report by gving 2 or 3 examples of the worst issues and then leave it at that. You’re largely kicking at an open door when it comes to HCP evidence. However, what actually gets you PIP is the weight of your own evidence. It’s pefectly possible to spend time compiling a document showing 50+ errors in a HCP report but in itself it does not get you PIP.
  • mattw84
    mattw84 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Seems the DWP are happy with falsified documents cos in essence that’s what’s happening.
    this is my first fight with the DWP and won’t be my last As I disagree with comments saying proving a lie won’t help your case. Lying or misrepresentation on an official document is a criminal offence and if you can prove a lie you have them by the balls regardless of what others say. (The key point there though is prove it of course)

    if you lie on your questionnaire your be the one in front of a judge for fraud so what’s good for the goose as they say.

    i have said it before I don’t believe the HCP lies I just think they are very good at wording a sentence. 

    But being bitter because you didnt didn’t get the points you wanted won’t help because unless you can prove something in this day and age you don’t stand a chance.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger

    It’s very difficult trying to contradict ‘lies’ unless they are just that - facts that are wilfully stated incorrectly. Challenging someone’s opinion is almost impossible.

    For example your statement that,“the assessor claimed that I communicated well” is just his opinion. You disagree but it’s difficult to describe the statement as a lie. “Claimed no physical disabilities were present” sounds like it may be true if, as you say, your problems are mental.

    As others have suggested it’s better to concentrate on presenting your own evidence. 

    If the assessor has made ‘mistakes’ and you feel that they are crucial to your case say so but back this up with additional examples of how you are affected. 

    Once you’ve done this leave it for a day or two and then re-read what you’ve come up with. Or get someone else to read it. Check that it’s factual, concise and that each example you give addresses the particular behaviours that you say you have difficulty with.

    Good luck!

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    mattw84 said:
    Seems the DWP are happy with falsified documents cos in essence that’s what’s happening.
    this is my first fight with the DWP and won’t be my last As I disagree with comments saying proving a lie won’t help your case. Lying or misrepresentation on an official document is a criminal offence and if you can prove a lie you have them by the balls regardless of what others say. (The key point there though is prove it of course)

    if you lie on your questionnaire your be the one in front of a judge for fraud so what’s good for the goose as they say.

    i have said it before I don’t believe the HCP lies I just think they are very good at wording a sentence. 

    But being bitter because you didnt didn’t get the points you wanted won’t help because unless you can prove something in this day and age you don’t stand a chance.
    It is not possible to prove an assessor lied without hard evidence and if you think it’s some kind of criminal offence you’the going to be very disappointed. It os no such thing Even if you prove they lied. So what? A tribunal will attribute less weight to the report but not no weight at all. Your chances hinge on your evidence not theirs. Heading into an appeal tribunal with an anti HCP focus also risks antagonising the medical professional on the panel. Not the best move. 

    Feel free to disagree with the above but you need far better arguments than ousted thus far.
  • mattw84
    mattw84 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    mattw84 said:
    Seems the DWP are happy with falsified documents cos in essence that’s what’s happening.
    this is my first fight with the DWP and won’t be my last As I disagree with comments saying proving a lie won’t help your case. Lying or misrepresentation on an official document is a criminal offence and if you can prove a lie you have them by the balls regardless of what others say. (The key point there though is prove it of course)

    if you lie on your questionnaire your be the one in front of a judge for fraud so what’s good for the goose as they say.

    i have said it before I don’t believe the HCP lies I just think they are very good at wording a sentence. 

    But being bitter because you didnt didn’t get the points you wanted won’t help because unless you can prove something in this day and age you don’t stand a chance.
    It is not possible to prove an assessor lied without hard evidence and if you think it’s some kind of criminal offence you’the going to be very disappointed. It os no such thing Even if you prove they lied. So what? A tribunal will attribute less weight to the report but not no weight at all. Your chances hinge on your evidence not theirs. Heading into an appeal tribunal with an anti HCP focus also risks antagonising the medical professional on the panel. Not the best move. 

    Feel free to disagree with the above but you need far better arguments than ousted thus far.
    So if I wheeled into a assessment in a wheel chair and said I was paralysed 
    then folded my wheelchair up put it in my brand new Mercedes and walked into my local pub that would not be a criminal offence? Of course it would i would be trying to defraud the state. 

    I am mearly saying if you can prove a document has been falsified it is a criminal offence something called fraud so yes that offence you say does not exist very much does. 
    And the DWP or HCP is not above the law 

    the problem as I stated which you clearly didn’t read is that you can’t fighg that if you don’t have prof and being bitter does not mean their opinion is a lie!
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    Matt W....it's a long time since I studied law but I think you'll find that that the elements of fraud are dishonestly making 'false representation' leading to a financial gain or causing a financial loss.

    Your example is clearly a fraud.

    The other way round is more difficult as you have to prove that the assessor lied and this lie caused you a financial loss.

    As others have said though proving that the assessor lied doesn't actually get you any closer to your entitlement...

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    And you are wrong. I’m sure there’s a more polite, less blunt means of expressing that but factually wrong remains factually wrong whichever way it gets dressed up and it’s important at this stage 

    1 - no-one was talking about fraud as per your first paragraph above. As it stands, no, there wouldn’t even be a hint of a criminal offence there and your understanding of both the law on fraud and disability seems fundamentally lacking. Just like most impairment is invisible, most people in wheelchairs have some mobility. 

    2 - it is not an offence to falsify a document unless you can show intent and even then it only applies to specific documents. Reports like HCP reports have existed since 1992. Number of prosecutions? Nil. There’s a specific reason for that. Legally you cannot prove someone lied other than in the most extraordinary circumstances. You can only show they were factually incorrect. The two are wholly different. 

    3 - I absolutely read and understood your post and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from petty insults. This is, as you say, your first encounter with DWP and if you want advice you would be well advised to listen to it instead of shouting the odds. 

    4 - I hope you win your appeal and you may well do so but I’ll say again that it will be because of the weight of your own evidence and not because of wholly discrediting the HCP report. I’d also suggest that as you’re clearly wound up about your appeal an internet forum is probably not the best place the night before. 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2018
    cristobal said:
    Matt W....it's a long time since I studied law but I think you'll find that that the elements of fraud are dishonestly making 'false representation' leading to a financial gain or causing a financial loss.

    Your example is clearly a fraud.

    The other way round is more difficult as you have to prove that the assessor lied and this lie caused you a financial loss.

    As others have said though proving that the assessor lied doesn't actually get you any closer to your entitlement...

    We cross posted. I disagree. The example is nothing like a fraud. It would depend upon what was meant by paralysed for starters. I know sometime who goes to the same football game as me. For around 60% of a day they can literally have no movement at all below the waist. The rest of the time he can get in and out of a chair.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    Matt W .... I'm slightly confused now.  

    You gave your example of going to an assessment in a wheelchair and claiming to be paralysed and said that it was a faired as it was "defrauding the state"

    I said I agree.

    But now you disagree with me, when I'm agreeing with what you said.

    Best move on I think!!
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    Sorry...ignore the last comment I completely misread it...

  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you did that activity is the best way to request the MR. They won't be interested in any lies that may have been told in the report.
    There is no evidence that any lies have been told other than what the poster says.
    So obviously the report lies, warts and all will be with the Tribunal as will the claimants side of the story. The tribunal will then have to draw conclusions from the facts found and on the balance of probabilities come to a decision on who they think should be believed.
  • Polly2
    Polly2 Member Posts: 15 Connected
    If you can back up any lies told with evidence definately point it out. If you cant then leave it. An example on my assessment stated i had no issues with medication. My doctors notes from weeks prior to the assessment confirmed that i did have issues remembering meds which the doctor made notes the day i had an appointment. In my mr i was awarded points for that discriptor. My advice is pick your battles carefully. Concentrate on the errors you can prove an ignore the ones you cant
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    That’s a slight misreading of how tribunals work. They assess the evidence; make findings of fact and then apply the law to those facts. However, it’s not generally about who is believed as that implies a party is untruthful. It’s about what is more likely to be true on the balance of probabilities. Claimants see a finding of fact which goes against them as inferring they have lied whereas it’s just saying that, given all the circumstances, statement a is more likely to be the case than statement b. They may prefer statement a because the balance of evidence reeks to them like it points that way. It’s not the same as saying statement b is definitely a lie.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,528 Disability Gamechanger
    Polly2 said:
    If you can back up any lies told with evidence definately point it out. If you cant then leave it. An example on my assessment stated i had no issues with medication. My doctors notes from weeks prior to the assessment confirmed that i did have issues remembering meds which the doctor made notes the day i had an appointment. In my mr i was awarded points for that discriptor. My advice is pick your battles carefully. Concentrate on the errors you can prove an ignore the ones you cant
    All well and good and wholly accurate as far as it goes but it doesn’t win you PIP. 
  • Polly2
    Polly2 Member Posts: 15 Connected
    Maybe not for everyone but it certainly did for me. I had zero points at assessment, this was my first time trying for pip. In all honesty i had no idea what I was doing. But i knew my evidence was strong so i challenged it. It seemed to me the errors/lies told were deliberately stated to stop me getting an award. 

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