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Does anyone else have any experience of not having any up to date medical evidence?

LizboLizbo Member Posts: 1 Listener
edited January 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
Type your messageI wish I'd known about this site a lot earlier!  It seems a great way of sharing experiences.
I'm a carer for my husband.  His problems started about 30 years ago when he had a slipped disc.  He had surgery for this.  Eighteen months later he had another slipped disc and another  operation.  A couple of years later, you've guessed it, another slipped disc but at that point they said further surgery would be  too risky.  Fast forward to 2013 when he did have further surgery which in the event didn't really help.  An MRI scan in 2015 showed that basically his spine is crumbling.  He received a lifetime award of DLA in 1996.  In 2016 he transferred to PIP and received the higher rate for mobility and, additionally, the standard rate for care. .  This meant I could now get Carers Allowance.   So far, so good.   He claimed ESA for the first time in 2017 and was not successful.  He got 0 points for mobility.  An MR failed and so we went to tribunal.  We were only in there for a couple of minutes.  They had already decided to put him in the support group.  Even the DWP rep said it shouldn't have gone so far.  Fast forward again to now.  His face to face reassessment is tomorrow.  His condition hasn't changed at all but he's got to the end of the road as far as treatment is concerned.  He can't have any more surgery.  (They were reluctant to do the last one, it was a last resort).   This means that we don't have any up to date medical evidence and this does bother me a bit.  Does anyone else have any experience of not having any up to date medical evidence?  Oh, and by the way, we could have asked our GP for a letter but they charge and the DWP letter said not to pay for any medical letters.

Replies

  • Pippa_AlumniPippa_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,851 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Lizbo, and a warm welcome to the community!

    Thanks for sharing this with us, and I'm so sorry to hear about your husband's experiences. It sounds like it's been a difficult process for you both. How did the face to face assessment go?
  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    Lizbo,

    I have that problem too, lots of appointment letters but none with any mention of my condition and how it affects me. Appointment letters themselves are not accepted as evidence by DWP-PIP.

    My condition has worsened since I was last assessed and I am considering notifying a change of circumstance which would trigger a fresh assessment,but all my correspondence is in the form of appointment letters, so what I am doing is contacting the agencies that monitor me and asking for a support letter for my PIP pack to send with assessment sheets. Two done so far today.
    Also a daily diary of how I am affected and in what ways, this is a very good way of explaining your circumstances.
    The main thing to remember is (for PIP) to state how you are affected, what gives you problems, how you are limited, what makes you breathless or gives you pain and how it prevents you doing things. Keeping a diary may make you aware of things that you have just become used to doing or not doing,taking a rest halfway up the stairs, taking an hour to get dressed or undressed, the aids you use around the house, the jobs you have to ask others to do.
    A diary helps focus these things.
    I could just as easily send links, but I think it is important that we talk to each other to help share problems and find solutions togather.
  • JennyFJennyF Member Posts: 14 Connected
    Hello
    Sorry to hear about the stressful time you've been having. I haven't got much advice to offer, but I did want to say that you're not on your own. We've had a similar problem because my daughter suffered a brain injury as a toddler that was not diagnosed until she was in her twenties, though it was apparent from her late primary school years that there was something wrong. Because there was nothing to be done, the medical profession were not interested in her, and we had a lack of the usual reports or consultants to refer DWP to.  In spite of her various difficulties, she was refused ESA after an assessment with a doctor who didn't believe her and was obviously being paid to turn people down.  In the end, we found the right charity - in our case Headway - and they were very supportive, including going with my daughter to a new ESA assessment. Which was successful, so maybe that is the only advice I can offer - try to find out if there is a  the charity that deals with back problems - maybe they can help.   
  • Pippa_AlumniPippa_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,851 Disability Gamechanger
    Welcome to the community, @stree!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
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  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    Also very important!
    Take copies of all documentation, and before you do, ensure that your full name, Date of Birth and national insurance number are at the top of every page.

    Take your copies when going to ESA or PIP assessments, and refer to them in the assessment if needed, this is perfectly OK to do.
    Always keep master copies at home safe, or even better the original documents.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    stree said:
    Lizbo,

    I have that problem too, lots of appointment letters but none with any mention of my condition and how it affects me. Appointment letters themselves are not accepted as evidence by DWP-PIP.

    My condition has worsened since I was last assessed and I am considering notifying a change of circumstance which would trigger a fresh assessment,but all my correspondence is in the form of appointment letters, so what I am doing is contacting the agencies that monitor me and asking for a support letter for my PIP pack to send with assessment sheets. Two done so far today.
    Also a daily diary of how I am affected and in what ways, this is a very good way of explaining your circumstances.
    The main thing to remember is (for PIP) to state how you are affected, what gives you problems, how you are limited, what makes you breathless or gives you pain and how it prevents you doing things. Keeping a diary may make you aware of things that you have just become used to doing or not doing,taking a rest halfway up the stairs, taking an hour to get dressed or undressed, the aids you use around the house, the jobs you have to ask others to do.
    A diary helps focus these things.
    I could just as easily send links, but I think it is important that we talk to each other to help share problems and find solutions togather.
    All good advice but one thing is missing - where is the confirmatory and independent evidence that supports all of that?
    Anybody can write anything - should they be believed from the outset just because they wrote it?
     
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:

    All good advice but one thing is missing - where is the confirmatory and independent evidence that supports all of that?
    Anybody can write anything - should they be believed from the outset just because they wrote it?
     
    I believe this has been covered many times on here. No need to go through it all again..
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    Yadnad.
    I may be new here but I have seen your post re this topic of April "18 and I agree with poppy123456 that this is not something to cover here.
    Any aspect that would be helpful or useful in this thead is welcome, but I see no value in sidetracking a genuine enquiry with moral philosophising.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    stree said:
    Yadnad.
    I may be new here but I have seen your post re this topic of April "18 and I agree with poppy123456 that this is not something to cover here.
    Any aspect that would be helpful or useful in this thead is welcome, but I see no value in sidetracking a genuine enquiry with moral philosophising.
    It's not. Post after post on here generally tells people that they need to supply evidence, not to support a diagnosis but to support the fact that the descriptors claimed are actually the truth.

    I have mentioned in another of my posts this morning what happened at my three assessments when I claimed for (a) an aid supplied by Social Services (a bath chair) so as for me to get in and out of the bath. and (b) that I needed help to get in and out of the bath (off the chair).

    The assessor carried out MSE each time commenting on the strength and flexibility of my legs and arms which resulted in them refusing points for the bath chair. Despite this equipment being supplied by Social Services it was determined that it was not for need but for choice.

    I had to supply evidence to support my argument that the descriptors applied to me (spinal unit at hospital and Social Services). The DWP then relented and agreed that it wasn't supplied out of choice but out of need.


  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    I apologise, I misunderstood.
    I agree, it is a fraught area, how to properly explain without leaving oneself open to appearing more able than is the case and the temptation to over emphasise your plight.
  • Anne54Anne54 Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Hi, Yes I have had this problem too.  My condition is arthritis and heart failure. It must be over 10 years since I was sent for xrays for arthritis.  The doctors say it isn't necessary - they know ive got arthritis!  But I feel that the assessors think less of you if you haven't got a pile of extra letters etc, its like without extra proof they are just taking our word for it. From my experience they automatically don't believe us. It seems pointless us going if they are assuming we are liars anyway.  I still can't get my head round being refused PIP when I have a letter from DWP about 5 years ago to say I was entitled to DLA indefinitely!  
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited February 2019
    Anne54 said:
    Hi, Yes I have had this problem too.  My condition is arthritis and heart failure. It must be over 10 years since I was sent for xrays for arthritis.  The doctors say it isn't necessary - they know ive got arthritis!  But I feel that the assessors think less of you if you haven't got a pile of extra letters etc, its like without extra proof they are just taking our word for it. From my experience they automatically don't believe us. It seems pointless us going if they are assuming we are liars anyway.  I still can't get my head round being refused PIP when I have a letter from DWP about 5 years ago to say I was entitled to DLA indefinitely!  
    It's not just with DLA. I have had 3 PIP assessments and each one ended up with 0 points. Yet with the evidence I sent them they relented twice and changed the award to Enhanced Care & Mobility.
    So how you can go from 0 points to Enhanced Care & Mobility then back to 0 points and back again to Enhanced Care & Mobility then finally to 0 points all in the space of 5 years!!

    I had some fantastic evidence - two reports. One was for Mobility and the other for Care. These were factual reports that laid out what I cannot do and can do giving reasons. These reports were dated 2011 and 2012.
    However in late 2017 the DWP wrote to me with the decision saying that they were unable to use the reports as they were too old and not relevant to how I am now. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
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  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I have just requested my medical file from the hospital for 2004 onwards, they needed Passport and Driving licence . Waiting for them to come through. I thought I would have to pay but there seems to be a new regulation about obtaining your medical files from a hospital from 2018 I don't have to pay for them . I don't know if it's the same across the country though.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    They can make up anything ... messed up system. Bribed charlatan so called medics ....who could make this up ... the tory party
    What on earth has the Tory party got to do with this?
    It was Labour under Blair that dreamed up ESA which they hailed as a success  and put the wheels in motion for PIP to replace DLA. The Tories just picked it up from where Labour had left it and brought PIP to the table to replicate ESA being such a success. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
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  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    edited February 2019
    Think you will find PIP was introduced in 2013 by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition .
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    You are right but the groundwork for it was carried out by the previous Labour administration as ESA was such a great Labour success PIP should follow suit.
  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    I dread to think what would really happen to benefits and the cost of living if this current labour mob got in power......Without fail Labour spend everyone elses money and disappear when it has run out.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    edited February 2019
    The original design of PIP was changed before it was presented in parliament by the Conservatives, lets face it Liberal were just puppets in the decision .
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    Don't get me started stree Labour without a leader is a waste of time at the moment they have an idiot far too left wing . I am ashamed to say I always voted  Labour now its the raving looney party no faith in any of it anymore lol :smile:
  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    That about sums it up Bungalow, real shame that "real" labour has been taken over by this sorry shambles.........But they lost my vote after Bliar........and no better after Brown then Milliband,( The Bacon on or the Banana one)
    Where are the old heavyweights?
  • streestree Member Posts: 41 Courageous
    Anyway, thread has got sidetracked............Old evidence and what to do?
    What I find strange is that HCPs have the DWP guide to medical conditions  and it states there when a condition is not curable, reversible and chronic.common sense would dictate that some conditions are bound to be worse after a few years since last assessment.............For example,, I have very  severe COPD and am now on what they call maximised meds..............and only see GP or Consultant  every 6 months or so.......Nothing else they could do or prescribe so not much point taking up their time...But of course, this means very scarce paperwork...............But if the HCP were to refer to the A-Z guide, all would become clear.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    For a start since when do the assessors actually follow what is laid down in their guidance manual?
    Secondly the guide to medical conditions was for DLA and AA. It has no purpose in deciding on PIP awards or the length of the award. That guide will now be covered in dust only to be brought out for Attendance Allowance claims as and when they arise.
    The HCP's who assess for PIP aren't interested in conditions and what may or may not happen to a claimant that has them. Their only job is to sit in judgement as to if the impact of those conditions claimed are reasonable and whether they are true and not exaggerated. Once that has been established they consider the descriptors to see if any fit that impact.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
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  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    Do any of you know if the DWP will ever contact your GP for further information (if requested they do so in MR)? I am aware the chances are low and might not happen, but is GP contact 100% made by the assessor or is there a chance that the DWP will contact also?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    If they are contacted then it will be the HCP that does it and not DWP.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    If they are contacted then it will be the HCP that does it and not DWP.
    Well that's a bit **** - like OP I had trouble with 'up to date' evidence except for my recent hospital stint which could only really be applied to one descriptor (mixing with people). Asked my GP for a letter so that I could send it off with my MR as she knows how it effects me etc and she said there was no point as they would contact her anyways. Which obviously I knew was wrong from what you've posted. Instead I just mentioned what she said & wrote to contact my GP on the MR.

    Seen her yesterday and asked if PIP contacted her as I scored 0 points so I'm apparently perfect, she said no, but they usually send a long form then asked if I said about my troubles going out etc. She seemed kind of shocked that I scored 0 points to be honest.

    Now I guess it just seems like my only hope is letters from my GP mentioning my troubles that are several years old are good enough, or that they send my form back to a HCP due to the new evidence included but I'm not holding my hopes up for that.

    Given the discussion we had in the other thread re communication I don't think I'm going to get PIP anyways any more to be honest. My only chance could be the 10 points for planning a journey now I think which I definitely think I should be getting but since my assessor lied about absolutely everything and the only 'evidence' i have regarding this is from 2014 I think, I don't have high hopes. I can't figure out wether I should be getting 4 or 8 points for mixing with people - having social support does help but I've still gone off the rails even with social support & the part about risk of harm to other people can come into play at times (I don't think I would harm them but they do get that impression a lot, so I guess the risk is there from an outside perspective?)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
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  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It's rare for them to send your report back to the HCP at this stage. As only 18% of MR decisions change then expect to have to take it to Tribunal.

    To score 8 points for engaging with others then this will need to apply to you.

    the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person

    Overwhelming psychological distress means distress related to a mental health condition or intellectual or cognitive impairment which results in a severe anxiety state in which the symptoms are so severe that the person is unable to function. This may be as a direct result of a mental health condition, or as a result of another disability such as cognitive or developmental impairment.

    Otherwise it's 4 points for needing social support, providing you need support when being with others.

    Are you thinking 10 points for descriptor D or E? For E then going out once would mean that you won't qualify for this (night time doesn't apply)

    For D Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid. What about familiar journey's do you need someone with you for those?

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    MSI Group now ? More firms looking to get in on the DWP "Assessment" scam 38k the job advert days it all fed up with NHS hours and stuff come and work for us..... some of the jobs on offer 40k how much money is wasted on so called PIP Assessments ? Advert should read souless uncaring fiends need only apply ...  job anyone ...

    https://www.msigroupltd.com/view-job/physiotherapy/physio-functional-assessor-bootle-38-000pa-plus-package/j6669/

    If the answer is yes to all these questions then MSI might just have the ideal role for you. We are currently recruiting in Bootle for qualified Physiotherapist's who are looking to put their training and skills to use in a different role.

    The role of a Functional Assessor offers the day to day variety, the one to one interaction and the clinical expertise of a normal Physiotherapist role without the ever present threat of cuts, awkward shift patterns and the feeling of being overworked and underpaid

    This I just love.
    Looking for Physios to put their training, skills and clinical expertise in a different role? Great for someone who would have medical issues that would normally see a Physio in a hospital setting. But where in all of the above does it state that they will also be assessing mental health matters?

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    If they are contacted then it will be the HCP that does it and not DWP.


    That's on the assumption that the claimant has actually put the GP's details on the PIP2 as it is not a requirement of making a claim. Some people can be quite shy in giving that sort of information out - much like the request for telephone numbers - no one really knows what happens to the information given to the DWP.

    Additionally they are supposed to ask for the GP's details when making the initial phone call to start off a PIP claim - some do, some don't.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member

    Hi Poppy

    'the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person'


    Anybody with those issues shouldn't be attending a face to face assessment or even completing a PIP2 - they would be locked away under Section under the Mental Health Act!  I know I was!

  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
    It's rare for them to send your report back to the HCP at this stage. As only 18% of MR decisions change then expect to have to take it to Tribunal.

    To score 8 points for engaging with others then this will need to apply to you.

    the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person

    Overwhelming psychological distress means distress related to a mental health condition or intellectual or cognitive impairment which results in a severe anxiety state in which the symptoms are so severe that the person is unable to function. This may be as a direct result of a mental health condition, or as a result of another disability such as cognitive or developmental impairment.

    Otherwise it's 4 points for needing social support, providing you need support when being with others.

    Are you thinking 10 points for descriptor D or E? For E then going out once would mean that you won't qualify for this (night time doesn't apply)

    For D Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid. What about familiar journey's do you need someone with you for those?

    4 or 8 points depends on the day, situation..etc.. I'm assuming I'll get 4 points for this, was reliant on getting 4 from communication too for the standard living allowance but I'm thinking I won't be getting that either after our last  discussion.

    Now you've actually got me second guessing myself on the going out part also. I can't go out at all on my own no matter where to even if it's to the Doctors which is literally a minute away, infact I can't even sit in our own garden. I either go with my mum or have my Dad come to the house and take me down in the car. Now I'm thinking I'll probably end up with 4 points here.. actually depending how literally that means I'm not even sure if I'd get 4 points for that. I don't need 'prompted' (well actually I might sometimes, depends how literally this is to be took) I just can't do it alone.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 172 Pioneering
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  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    4 or 8 points depends on the day, situation..etc.. I'm assuming I'll get 4 points for this, was reliant on getting 4 from communication too for the standard living allowance but I'm thinking I won't be getting that either after our last  discussion.

    Now you've actually got me second guessing myself on the going out part also. I can't go out at all on my own no matter where to even if it's to the Doctors which is literally a minute away, infact I can't even sit in our own garden. I either go with my mum or have my Dad come to the house and take me down in the car. Now I'm thinking I'll probably end up with 4 points here.. actually depending how literally that means I'm not even sure if I'd get 4 points for that. I don't need 'prompted' (well actually I might sometimes, depends how literally this is to be took) I just can't do it alone.
    If you don't go anywhere alone then you should be looking at descriptor f not anything else. Why do you think the other descriptors may apply? You'll need to give your reasons why you can't go out alone on a familiar journey, what would happen if you did go out alone? Give a few examples of what happens when you do or if you attempted to do this activity alone.

    May i ask if you've got any help with your claim at all? It seems like you're struggling to understand the descriptors fully and this isn't going to help your Tribunal preparation. https://advicelocal.uk/

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering

    4 or 8 points depends on the day, situation..etc.. I'm assuming I'll get 4 points for this, was reliant on getting 4 from communication too for the standard living allowance but I'm thinking I won't be getting that either after our last  discussion.

    Now you've actually got me second guessing myself on the going out part also. I can't go out at all on my own no matter where to even if it's to the Doctors which is literally a minute away, infact I can't even sit in our own garden. I either go with my mum or have my Dad come to the house and take me down in the car. Now I'm thinking I'll probably end up with 4 points here.. actually depending how literally that means I'm not even sure if I'd get 4 points for that. I don't need 'prompted' (well actually I might sometimes, depends how literally this is to be took) I just can't do it alone.
    If you don't go anywhere alone then you should be looking at descriptor f not anything else. Why do you think the other descriptors may apply? You'll need to give your reasons why you can't go out alone on a familiar journey, what would happen if you did go out alone? Give a few examples of what happens when you do or if you attempted to do this activity alone.

    May i ask if you've got any help with your claim at all? It seems like you're struggling to understand the descriptors fully and this isn't going to help your Tribunal preparation. https://advicelocal.uk/

    I don't think F applies to me because of the new one that related to mental health (e), my problems is more of a mix between e&f but doesn't fit either of them exactly - half of e, half of f fits me, my assessor put a lot of emphasis on asking if I got lost, would I know the way home (directions). Knowing where / how to follow a journey and going out alone are two completely different things also I guess the fact enhanced rate mobility seems a bit ridiculous considering I can walk etc..



    Now I could be wrong but if d, f take anxiety into consideration like you seem to be implying - there isn't much point in e? and if they take anxiety into consideration, e doesn't make much sense to be on 10 points when you're worse off than f which gives you 12 points. b and e seem to be the only ones relating to anxiety while the others are relating to other problems?

    No I didn't get help. Don't have anyone that can help me, getting face to face help would be too much for me ( same reason i will be doing paper tribunal which i know you're gonna scold me for but I won't be able to show up at all so i'll take my low chances..) My CPN was going to help me years ago but they passed my care back to my GP so I never saw him again thus I never applied until recently. I just filled it out myself and pretty much sent it back blank like what I have done with my ESA for the past 10~ years which I think was a mistake aswell but My problems are easier to see in person than on paper, but as my assessor lied about everything it's put me in a difficult position. I have tried to explain it better and wrote more out in a MR but I didn't expect to have to get to this point and I'm not particularly great at explaining myself either....Doesn't help that the assessor wasn't too interested in what my mum had to say either who is better at explaining than I am.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 2019
    All of what you said above tells me that you really don't understand the PIP descriptors or what they mean at all. E doesn't fit you because you go out, although you say you don't go out much, you still go out and for this to apply then going out once would mean you don't qualify. Night time doesn't include this descriptor.

    This descriptor is most likely to apply to claimants with cognitive, sensory or developmental impairments, or a mental health condition that results in overwhelming psychological distress, who cannot, due to their impairment, work out where to go, follow directions, follow a journey safely or deal with unexpected changes in their journey, even when the journey is familiar. A claimant who suffers overwhelming psychological distress whilst on the familiar journey and who needs to be accompanied to overcome the overwhelming psychological distress may satisfy descriptor 1F. So, overwhelming psychological distress applies here.

    You say you're problems are easier to see in person than on paper but you're going to request a paper based hearing, that really doesn't make any sense to me.

    I don't know why you think that enhanced mobility should only apply to those who can't walk.



    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
    All of what you said above tells me that you really don't understand the PIP descriptors or what they mean at all. E doesn't fit you because you go out, although you say you don't go out much, you still go out and for this to apply then going out once would mean you don't qualify. Night time doesn't include this descriptor.

    This descriptor is most likely to apply to claimants with cognitive, sensory or developmental impairments, or a mental health condition that results in overwhelming psychological distress, who cannot, due to their impairment, work out where to go, follow directions, follow a journey safely or deal with unexpected changes in their journey, even when the journey is familiar. A claimant who suffers overwhelming psychological distress whilst on the familiar journey and who needs to be accompanied to overcome the overwhelming psychological distress may satisfy descriptor 1F. So, overwhelming psychological distress applies here.

    You say you're problems are easier to see in person than on paper but you're going to request a paper based hearing, that really doesn't make any sense to me.

    I don't know why you think that enhanced mobility should only apply to those who can't walk.





    How does it make sense that, if anxiety is the reason you can't go out, being able to go out sometimes earns you 12 points, but not being able to go out at all earns you 10 points? That's not very logical and if anything the roles should be reversed. Not saying you're wrong, I originally thought I should get 12 points for this too, but I changed my mind in recent months because of what I've mentioned here.

    Looking at those descriptors at face value, someone similar to me but who is much worse than I am and unable to go out period, would only get standard rate while me, who is in a slightly better place would be entitled to enhanced. That doesn't really make any sense at all.

    Well the assessment didn't help me much and I showed up to that & it's not as simple as 'do this and it will help your case', if it was that simple I wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Right now i'm focused on waiting on a MR response but I don't see myself going to Tribunal.


    Edit: Actually, your post kind of answers our question that E and F are different.. F related to if your anxiety causes it so that you don't know where to go, etc. That's not the case with me. I know where to go, I know where things are, I just can't go out alone even though I'd know where to go etc.

    On further reading..

    "A claimant who satisfies 1E cannot also satisfy 1F. If they cannot undertake a single journey on the majority of days due to overwhelming psychological distress, then 1E will be the applicable descriptor, even if there are occasions when they could follow a familiar route, if accompanied."


    Wouldn't this bolded section fit me more? Although that's basically a copy of what F means and contradicts itself? This is sounding like the communication descriptor all over again..
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Descriptor E is . Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.

    The descriptor regarding communicating was previously answered in the other thread. Anyway, there's no further advice i can give you regarding this because i've done everything i can possibly do on an internet forum. I wish you good luck and hope you have a decision that's right for you, whether it's the MR or Tribunal.

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
    Descriptor E is . Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.

    The descriptor regarding communicating was previously answered in the other thread. Anyway, there's no further advice i can give you regarding this because i've done everything i can possibly do on an internet forum. I wish you good luck and hope you have a decision that's right for you, whether it's the MR or Tribunal.

    Just to make it clear - not really looking for a discussion on this again, and I'm not saying you're wrong - cause you're probably right, but this gov.uk website is quite literally one contradiction after another. Either that or you need a degree in English to understand it. The two red boxes I have highlighted below literally contradict each other to an absolute T. Unless I'm an idiot, which may be accurate.

    In one paragraph, you're entitled to it only if you can't go out without another person, in the very next paragraph, you're entitled to it even if occasionally you can go out with another person. I could be an idiot as I've said but to me that's a gigantic contradiction and really doesn't make any sense at all.



  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    ilovecats said:
    Do any of you know if the DWP will ever contact your GP for further information (if requested they do so in MR)? I am aware the chances are low and might not happen, but is GP contact 100% made by the assessor or is there a chance that the DWP will contact also?
    If they are contacted then it will be the HCP that does it and not DWP.

    Just add, its unlikely the Face to face HCP will contact any medical professionals. 
    It is back office HCP's who make requests for information and that is only if they feel your review may be able to be completed on paper.
    @ilovecats Thanks for that. Just out of curiosity, when i applied for PIP for my daughter for the first time last year (i'm her appointee) i sent in evidence from the community mental health team, which went into considerable length of detail about her conditions, how they affect her, the support she needed and the things she can and can't do. All related to the descriptors that applied to her. Not because i asked for it but because of the recent assessment she'd had done in the few months before the claim.

    She was called for a face to face assessment, which lasted 1 hour 10 minutes and was done at home, without the need for a letter from her GP.

    After the assessment and before the report was returned back to the DWP (it also went to audit for 5 weeks) they contacted someone from the community mental health team to ask about her ability to go out alone and did she ever travel alone. If it's only back office HCP's that make those requests then why was someone contacted after the assessment took place? Just wondering why they would do this.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks for that, much appreciated. Didn't mean to highjack the thread with my question, not something i usually do. Was just curious as to the reasons why. Totally understand the reasons. Infact the person the was contacted is extremely difficult to get hold of, which could explain when they were eventually contacted after the assessment took place.

    To be totally honest with you, i've never had a bad report for any claim but i know a lot of people do but as i always say, we only hear that bad stories.

    Thanks also for answering the question so well about following and planning a journey. I tried to explain it that way but my brain wouldn't allow me.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks for that. Yikes, not the greatest whether to be driving in, that's for sure. Glad you arrived home safely!
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Pipquestions2Pipquestions2 Member Posts: 92 Pioneering
    edited February 2019

    Got my MR result today so 100% can say they never contacted my Dr as expected. Basically says because i'm under no specialist input I don't have anxiety.

    It also says "You cannot go out, engage with others due to severe social anxiety, however you have submitted a police notice regarding asbo behaviour on your part. this is entirely contradictory"..... The asbo was issued by the hospital ward where I was forced to stay overnight without visitors , how that's contradictory i'll never know... If anything I'd say it proves my point as to what happens when I'm left alone... I made it clear this was issued by the hospital, but I'm assuming they think it was me going around causing mayhem in the street or something? lol

    ANother part says "You are sufficiently motivated to play complex video games and interact with others online"... No I don't interact with others online!  The assessor asked if I play with others online, this is true because online gaming is basically 90% of the games. But no, I don't interact with them, I don't speak with them over voice chat etc for the same reason I can't speak on the phone.., they are essentially a computer. I thought this was about face to face anyways and not online?


    Anyways, what is the tribunal form name that I can print out? And do I have to resubmit previous evidence, or can I submit new evidence aswell? Edit: Nvm found the form and it answers my second question aswell.
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