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Appeal help please

mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
Hi all,

my brain is a tad muddled so I’m not sure yet what my question is but I’ll keep typing and see what happens!

Rough outline...partner was getting PIP since 2013, basic daily only. The assessor recommended no F2F for 5 years. He’s only had a paper review in 2017 which was decided he was still entitled to the same. 
I didn’t realise until that review about the points and how they work it out. I did an MR but it came back the same. Didn’t have the energy to take it any further. (I do his forms for him) But after figuring this out it’s clear he should have got and still should have the enhanced rate of both. 

He has Aspergers and has every trait of it, he cannot lead a normal life in any aspect.

Had a F2F in feb and they scored him zero in everything. The report was absolutely full of lies and missing all the relevant info we talked about. She also had a lot about physical abilities in her so called justifications which are not in dispute so are irrelevant. I think she used this to pad out her report.

I did an MR (they upheld the decision) and I had no option but to state all her lies, there was no way around it as this made up the majority of her report. 

Partner has many difficulties and they cannot be summed up in a sentence or two! Also, his difficulties overlap with many of the questions/activities. 

So, the MR was 28 pages long, (on a word type document) obviously very detailed! I set it out so it was clear to read and I explained the lies and backed this up with what was in the forms (2013, 2017 and most recent) plus an old GP report (they didn’t get a new one) and other evidence they have but the HP didn’t mention in her report, one most important piece of evidence which is a detailed medical report/diagnosis.

I pointed out how she hadn’t followed guidelines in her report; her justifications contradicted evidence and even herself, she hadn’t backed up her ‘opinions’ by fact or medical consensus and she did not explain why either, plus much more.

I stated what physical evidence I could provide to prove quite a few of her lies, 5 or 6 of them I think. The rest of her lies contradict all other evidence that the DWP has and has had since 2013, and this evidence pre-dates this also.
His condition/disablilty has not changed since then, has not changed since childhood (except it has got worse) and will not get better in the future. It’s lifelong and not treatable. 

In her report, once you take away the physical abilities which are not relevant and the lies, even if you just take away just the lies I can physical prove, there is no justification for her choices, this is so clear for anyone to see. This is why it baffles me how someone can look at this and not see it! And she’s basically saying that everyone in the past who has agreed he is entitled to PIP were either lying or they were all wrong, everyone who’s ever looked at and agreed with the decision to award him. 

In the first decision letter from the DWP it said that they don’t believe from the information he provided that my partner would have known that he’s not entitled! I’m not surprised as he (me) gave the same information as before when he was entitled! 

Sorry this is so long!

anyway, I tried submitting the same info as the MR, with a covering letter, to do an online appeal but it keeps saying there’s a technical issue and to try again in a few minutes. I tried for hours! Looks like I’ll have to post it. I really wanted to be able to have email updates though. 

I know the info is incredibly long but I can’t shorten it without not giving all of the relevant information. 

I cant not say about her lies because there are just too many of them and it’s those that the DWP are going by.

I will be sending the evidence of some of her lies via post when the appeal is lodged and accepted.

But if I don’t send the loooong explanation for the appeal as to why we are appealing then they won’t have all the information as to why we are appealing and then they won’t accept it! 

I keep reading that the appeal should be short and concise and you should not mention about the HP lying, but if I don’t then none of it will make any sense! 

I still can’t find a question here! I guess I must just be after someone to say, ‘it’s fine’! 
Has anyone else been in the same situation with having so much information to send to lodge the appeal...I mean to start with, not sending additional info? And if so, how did it turn out? 

I’m so frazzled! 


  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2019
    @mandyZ - I didn't get as far MR because DWP reconsidered my case when the HCP's report had been 'corrected'

    Supporting you request for MR with 28 pages sounds like at lot to me. What did you send with the original application?

    (sorry - I think I misread this - are you now going to tribunal?)
  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    I’m so pleased that your claim was sorted out and you didn’t have to take it further. 

    When you say the original application, do you mean in 2013 or with latest claim form just before the assessment?
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    @mandyZ - I meant the original claim form. 

    I was just thinking that, from memory, there are about 12 'descriptors' on the form. If you are sending 28 pages of additional evidence then that seems to be a lot. Personally I'd read through it again and just check that you think it's all relevant.

    Hopefully someone who has been to a tribunal can advise better - the tribunal will be decided on how strong your case is ..
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,218 Disability Gamechanger

    I have to agree with @cristobal 28 pages is an awful lot for them to read, especially when you're also pointing out any lies that may have been told in the report. The Tribunal won't appreciate you mentioning any of the these, they will see for theirself any inaccuracies.

    What you need to do is go through all the descriptors to see which ones you think apply to him and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 real life examples of what happened the last time he attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to him.

    Letters from a GP aren't the best evidence because they only tell them the basics, a GP doesn't know how our conditions affect us against the PIP descriptors. You say they didn't get a new report from the GP. It's not their responsibility to prove he qualifies, it's his/yours. They very rarely request any evidence from anyone.

    When requesting the Tribunal, keep it simple to start with all they need to know is your reasons for requesting it. Any thing else can be sent later, remember you only have 1 month from the date of the MR decision to request this. The most important thing is to get that request sent and send the MR decision letter with it. They won't refuse the appeal, unless you forget to send the MR decision letter. Waiting lists for hearings are huge and a lot of people are waiting in excess of 1 year for a hearing date so you'll have plenty of time to send any extra evidence. Appearing in person will give him the best chance of a decision in his favour. 71% of those that appear have a decision in their favour. Only 5-8% of those who request a paper based decision have a decision in their favour.

    My advice is to get some face to face advice, help and support with the Tribunal. If you can get representation then even better. You need to concentrate on a strong case and mentioning the lies isn't doing that.

    This link will help you understand the PIP descriptors, what they mean and the criteria.

    This link will help you find what's in your area for advice. CAB no longer represent at Tribunal but welfare rights or a law centre will.

  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,212 Disability Gamechanger
    To start the appeal to tribunal you only need to give basic reasons for your challenge. Once the appeal has been accepted you will receive the bundle of evidence used by the DWP when making the decision. You should check this and use it to make your submission adding any extra relevant evidence
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    edited June 2019
    Sorry, I think I confused things!
    The 28 pages were for the MR and were related to the 12 activities and descriptors. I had to go through all of them, well all but 3 I think, to say why I disagreed with their decisions on each one. I wrote out the activities (not the descriptors though) and what the HP had put in her report so I could refute it and it would make more sense. 

    I didn’t send any additional info as there wasn’t anything extra to send at the time. Now there will be though for the appeal, the proof of her lies and I’ll try and get an up to date letter from the GP. 

    (Sorry, I don’t know how to tag people yet!)
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,218 Disability Gamechanger
    When you eventually write the submission there's no need to state what you disagreed with in the report. What you need to do is go through all the descriptors to see which ones you think apply to him and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 real life examples of what happened the last time he attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to him.
  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    My last comment there was for Cristobal, I didn’t see the other comments till after I posted.

    thanks for the replies and your time everyone.

    I forgot to say, I also included all of the info about the functional history, social and occupational history, mental health exam etc. All of this was full of lies too, it’s truly shocking how many lies she has told. 
    The DWP have based their decision on her report which includes functional history etc.
    The HP has based her justifications for descriptors chosen on the functional history etc. the huge majority of which is lies. 

    As an example, in the functional history she states that he manages a bank account, budgets for bills, manages car tax, MOT and servicing and child care costs. 
    She uses this info in her justification for 0 points on managing budgeting decisions stating, functional history indicates ability to manage finances, consistent with ability doing online banking. 

    He does not have a car as he doesn’t drive and never has. He also does not have a bank account and never has. I have one in my name only and I deal with all monies. He has got us into debt before which I can also prove.

    Her justification is only based on lies, these are ones I can prove too. Also none of this was even discussed in the assessment!

    How can I explain my reasons for disagreeing with this in a simplified way, not saying she’s lying (although I already did in the MR) and so they get the full picture please?
    is it just as simple as me saying he doesn’t have a bank account etc? Would that be enough? And with sending proof of that too after I’ve lodged the appeal. 

    I have actually seemed to pick out the most basic of activities though, others are so much more in depth! 

    So so sorry for such long posts!
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,212 Disability Gamechanger
    No problem, appealing is a stressful activity but try not to over think it. Your job is not to disagree with the report , you must concentrate on proving and showing with examples how he meets each descriptor. The tribunal are only interested in finding the truth of how he is affected. Additional evidence that is relevant to the descriptors is usefull but proving  lies in the report will not win an award
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    You’ve got it there, overthinking! Yep that’s what I’m doing. 

    Ok, I’m looking at it all again, I’ll get my paperwork out and just do basic.
    So it’s bascially like completing the form again to a certain extent but much less info needed. 
    How about something like this...for the preparing food, 

    I disagree with the decision that **** is able to prepare and cook a meal safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a timely manner. 
    He is not able to prepare and cook a meal in a timely manner or repeatedly. This is true 7 days a week.
    I believe because of this he should score F 

    The reasons why he cannot do this:
    Lack of motivation 
    lacks concentration and gets distracted 
    sleep pattern is very varied
    OCD’s affect whether he makes food at all, the time it takes and if finishes it
    etc etc

    Then do 2-3 examples like poppy said. Then that’s it.

    Does that sound ok?
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I would advise you to have a good read of the link i posted in my comment. This will give you a better understanding of the descriptors and what they mean.

    Preparing and cooking cooking food.

    This descriptor refers to the person’s functional ability in relation to any impairment and their cooking skills should not be taken in to consideration for this descriptor. If a claimant cannot cook because they have never learned but their functional ability indicates they could undertake tasks involved in preparing and cooking food then this descriptor would not apply.

    Descriptor 1F measures the ability to prepare and cook food. A claimant can only satisfy 1F if they can neither prepare nor cook food (even with assistance or supervision). If they cannot do one of these, even with assistance or supervision, but can do the other then one of the other descriptors will apply.

    Claimants who can prepare food but cannot cook it, would not satisfy this descriptor.

    If he can do this with assistance then he won't score points in descriptor F. It's not always possible to score as many points as you think.

  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Thanks for your reply poppy.

    i think I know the descriptors inside out now, they’re etched into my brain! 

    He cant do it with assistance either, major OCD’s and other things. 

    When im going through them I always have in my mind the lowest score, I never over estimate as this would just lead to disappointment and be an untrue representation. Most of them are ‘needs prompting/assistance’, there’s 3 scores of zero but 4 of them are full marks! 

    It’s all driving me mad and I really don’t want to go through it all again. Why do they do this to people?! 
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,212 Disability Gamechanger
    I have sent you a PM
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • mandyZ
    mandyZ Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Hi all, I’m back! I hope you’re all well. 

    ‘I have received today recieved the DWP’s ‘response’ to the appeal but I haven’t recieved anything else. I thought the bundle you get is a copy of all the information they have about you? Or, will that come separate?
    thnak you ?


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