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Tribunal Appeal Allowed - Now What

katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
I'm sure everyone knows the hurdles so if you have gone through it congratulations for that - it is a hellish time I appreciate that. My question is now what happens ? So I was ESA which was cancelled thereby pushing me to UC. The appeal was allowed meaning the cancellation of ESA was overturned. However I now have to re-apply for Limited Capacity on Universal Credit (LC), and meanwhile attend the Job Centre ? In Homer Simpsons words 'Dulp' ? I want to get this right in my head - so I applied for LC on the understanding this is what I'm supposed to do. This may be accepted with or without another Health Assessment at the same rate as UC £73. Then I have to re-apply for the rate (now reduced) that ESA was, prior to the cancellation, (that 'status', which the decision of Tribunal have re-instated) with additional £23 (roughly) to DWP and if unsuccessful to the Tribunal and start the process again for this £23 (roughly) ? Or LC will be declined and I will have to do a MR and then head to Tribunal again or both ? If this is correct as CAB have said if occurs come back and we will come with you again, what was the point of the Tribunal Case ? Also what does over-riding the DWP decision to cancel ESA in January mean, if not that it continues ?  As a side note, the Tribunal requested I not have a health assessment for two years (not so important to me) I know this is not a legally binding part of the decision, is this a standard paragraph they attach to all decisions ?

Replies

  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    Lets say I am not entitled to any small additional amount, and I am instead allowed the LC status which I need to attend medical needs not job seeking ones for work I cannot do right now. Lets say I achieve that, at the same rate of UC  I currently receive. Has all this time, these many months of MR, ESA cancellation, DWP abuse, Drs time and letters and CAB workers time - led to simply two letters an L and a C ?
    All the court time, the judge, the Doctor attending, many meetings and drama for an L and a C ? What does the result of the Tribunal hearing mean ?  Knowing the DWP rules and goals, why does the hearing simply not transition one to LC ? Why is UC the same rate for LC recipients who have medical needs to fulfill, aids, transport, special diet, after hour emergency room visits ? Is that odd ? Not differentiating the needs of a ill person to the needs of a fit for work person ? It feels odd to me, since I have had many 101 referrals to after hours Doctors across town in the early hours.
     Am I a nutter or is there a better way to do this ?
  • Hart86Hart86 Member Posts: 394 Pioneering
    What was the decision for ESA @katiesymon? Did they place you in Support Group or WRAG?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    DWP should honour the decision and place you in the LCW group for UC. You'll also be backdated any money that's owed from when you were found fit for work for ESA, you just need to wait for DWP to action this and it can take 8 weeks to receive backdated money owed.

    When they do pay you the backdated money placing you into the LCW group may not happen automatically and it's highly possible that you'll need to speak to your case manager to send the MPG1 form to ESA for the information to be sent across, but you'll need to wait for the back dated money to be able to do this.

    The reason you need to wait is because DWP have the same chance we do to appeal the decision and to do this they have 1 month from the date of the decision to request the statement of reasons (SOR). Once they receive this they have to find an error in law before they can appeal it. They sometimes request the SOR but rarely appeal it. If they request it they will contact you.

    I also see from your previous thread that you've been sent another work capability assessment form for UC, this does have to be returned and any new decision made on that will overrule the Tribunal decision. As your previous ESA claim started before April 2017 then if after this decision you're given LCW again then you will continue to receive the extra £126 per month. Hope this helps.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    Should I then cancel the LC application that was sent to me - which I did not request. It simply arrived in the mail prior to the Tribunal hearing and I believe due to an admission into hospital for kidney failure. Maybe organised by Remploy who said I was not fit for WRAG.
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    This sounds different to what you said a few weeks ago Poppy123456. Don't mind my dubiousness. If DWP honour the decision and place me into LCW why would I risk and overturn that decision by applying for LC through a form someone sent maybe initiated by Remploy ? Can I request through my journal for that information if this over-rides Tribunal how ridiculous ! - after the Tribunal do I have to attend job-seeking appointments
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    I cancelled the LC. I have asked for more information through my journal as to why it was sent and asked the work coach to ring me as I think it was sent due to Remploy concern over the job-centre commitments I had during kidney failure episode/hospitalisation rather than a directive or DWP request - At the time Job Centre ignored fit-notes. I am wondering if this has occurred due to a circumstance of the time. (I could barely stand up) with Remploy very concerned. CAB may have assumed DWP initiated that form as well.

    I'm really confused now as I was told before I was not eligible for any additional amounts and back pay was only between ESA and onset of UC. One or two weeks. Now Poppy is saying from when you were found fit for work ….there is no way I would have filled that form in to override the Tribunal decision, after the damn hearing ! That is absolutely crazy of me to have been led to do. I cant believe this has happened. The question is then is it usual for people to have to fill in LC Forms whilst pending Tribunal Hearings ? OMG. So DWP generally do honour the decision of Tribunal and place one in a LCWRG for goodness sake - that's not at all how I heard it before
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Ok Ironically just received the back payment ESA-UC the few weeks today. I have asked the work coach to send over a MP1 which I will look up on the internet and stressed my concern over the source of the LC through the journal 
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    POPPY123456 WHAT DOES THE MPG STAND FOR IN MPG1 FORM ? I cannot find it on the internet is it a M for migration ?
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Now I can see why it did not make sense at all. The LC was probably sent because of the concerns of Re-employ, she was really a good concerned worker. The assumptions made that DWP may have initiated it were due to no notification for why. If I am to be transferred into a LCW for UC, after Tribunal then of course it makes far better sense. No wonder so confused. So prior information may have sorted that period of stress out. Goodness, if it feels wrong - it is likely wrong prevails here. Got you now Poppy123456 so once in the LCW for UC then the additional money should come and if not then it would be a point of concern to follow up…. now I get it.  Okay so cancelling the LC is not a bad thing and I can deal with the fact I sent it off due to that confusion. Thank you
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Now I ask is there another anomaly ? If the work coach sends across the MPG1 Form and I am placed into LCW group - due to dates the £126 is applied perhaps. Does the Tribunal Decision not over-ride DWP ESA cancellation. Then does that not mean the £126 a month applies from date of UC onset. Another paradox. If I was meant to be i a LCW group as deemed by Tribunal that must apply as the same from the onset of the unjustified UC push.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The reason you were sent another work capability assessment form is because they can re-assess you anytime from 3 months so you won't be able to cancel that, even though you didn't ask for it to be sent. As i previously advised you, you will need to return that form no later than the date stated. If you don't return it then you will be found fit for work for failing to return the form.

    As i've already advised, the Tribunal decision overrules the previous ESA decision and you will receive the extra £126 per month.

    Any decision made on your new work capability assessment though will overrule to recent Tribunal decision.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    This sounds different to what you said a few weeks ago Poppy123456. Don't mind my dubiousness. If DWP honour the decision and place me into LCW why would I risk and overturn that decision by applying for LC through a form someone sent maybe initiated by Remploy ? Can I request through my journal for that information if this over-rides Tribunal how ridiculous ! - after the Tribunal do I have to attend job-seeking appointments
    A few weeks ago i did advise you that any new decision will overrule the Tribunal decision.

    As you have been given LCW then you'll be placed into the work preparation requirement group. This group will be expected to take reasonable steps to prepare for work, such as attending a skills assessment, preparing a CV, participating in training or an employment programme, and undertaking work experience or a work placement.

    A sanction may be applied to your Universal Credit award if you fail to undertake work-related activity. This sanction may be imposed for a period until you meet the compliance condition that you failed, or for up to 26 weeks.

    Your journal will tell you what you what's required.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Sorry Hart86 I did see you there (I was getting wound up) the Appeal was successful due to CABs great support. Thank you for asking
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Okay I spoke with DWP today The LC Application sent out does not need to be returned. The form is sent out randomly to combat Fit-Notes presented to DWP (probably reported by my nasty Case Worker) there is a cross over that can occur if you are in Appeal, but it is a process they are using for everyone, (how interesting is that) to deter Fit Notes being presented at the Job Centre was the reason given.. DWP advised this submitted (grrrrrrr.....) application will NOT override the Tribunal, and when an appointment is made for assessment to decline that. It is integral and important Poppy123456 not to lead people onto this pathway without establishing the understanding facts, very dangerous advice. It certainly was not making sense to be in appeal and then restarting the whole unpleasant process again DWP laughed ! and said of course not. - Also bearer of bad news, I shall never be sanctioned as I am not an imbecile nor idiot Poppy123456, you like to add those into your advice which appears horrible (I tried to ignore it but you just have to add negatives to people already downtrodden) , so lighten up. Perhaps without speaking with authority on sanctions ie your  forms late ? (dangerous)  use words like congratulations, that's fantastic - or in my opinion otherwise it is very misleading, negative vibe. Totally ruining any relief I feel,  squashing the questions . End-note The case manager will not respond to my questions I will give her a week.so - so no it is not in the journal, which is why I am online

  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,926

    Scope community team

    Hi @katiesymon, please try to be mindful of the way you speak to other members here. @poppy123456 has advised you as well as she can given the circumstances and ambiguity of the situation. In most cases, once a UC50 is issued, it has to be returned. This would trigger a new WCA, but so does handing in the fit notes, which you are already doing. The fact you were sent a UC50 means a new assessment has already been triggered and Poppy advised you based on this understanding.
    Universal Credit is a complicated benefit and there are very limited guidelines as to what happens to people in your situation.

    Glad again that you won your appeal and hopefully your Universal Credit will be amended without any further problems.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
  • Hart86Hart86 Member Posts: 394 Pioneering
    That reply is kinda rude @katiesymon!! People have been trying to help and can only answer based on the info you give!

    It’s great the DWP gave you permission not to return it but @Poppy123456’s advice to you was correct. Failure to return a UC50 or ESA50 results in being found fit for work, it’s even in the official guidance!! See below: 



    I’d want the permission not to return it in writing if I were you, wouldn’t be the first time the DWP have incorrectly advised someone!! 
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Sure, but not at all. The questionnaire was a pat of a test process - DWP advised not applicable simply crossed over to a client who happened to be in appeal process (I was confused too)  but to catch others out and lead or deter them. Ok good for them. . Hence DWP laughed and said no don't worry (actually laughed on the phone) . 
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    I do understand where your coming from, hence my initial questions I couldn't figure it out. You know as undiagnosed not receiving points under this terribly inadequate 45 minute physical - I realised all I do is on pain meds - codeine. That never occurred to me but I guess personally I think 5 months of false accusation some like, in DWP's submission to Tribunal she maybe could drink alcohol if she had more money or would if she shopped more than once per month online ? (a strange thing like that)  went to the shop to buy milk once when she declared she buys everything  online, (I was actually asked that in Tribunal, that's in a month) She is on a child's pain relief (well I was upgraded to codeine from paracetamol) She can use a computer (I was a programmer and specialist accounts clerk) She dresses well (not particularly) but do claimants not dress ? She was sick in another country ? No I was not ! (I came from another country, maybe COPD started years ago I don't know) Diagnosed last year. This is my fathers country (is that a issue) I have 23 addresses dating back to early 1900's for my family here. (Tribunal asked about my work history) I think all of those things being presented with limp hands to push down on, walking a carpet 200 plus meters but on relief meds, not mentioned. Told the pain relief is that of a 13 year olds. , The fainting and injuries, seizure I had, paramedics.. I think that to get through it and face more is far too much -  thankfully It is over. Also undiagnosed it was possibly one of the worst 6 months ever. So sure I had exceptional battles I'd like to feel a lot more positive about. I have kidney failure again - you cant stand, bend twist sit in a chair (yet no points) I shouldn't have taken the codeine - to do so.But I did. and I do.  But you know Id like to enjoy some relief just a miniscule piece of it, at least of getting through those months of emergency visits and injuries from falls. After all that I think with a sigh of relief at least at some point I don't have the pressure of threats of sanction, late forms and so forth. However in this case it is important the LC application sent WAS flawed - and the girl at DWP laughed and had to reassure me twice as I would not believe her and I told her I had been online and the opinion there, She said do not worry, DWP will not demand LC applications to appeal processing people, it was a fluke that it was sent, they do not read the history of each person they send it to and just post them - differing departments. Ok, who would have known and what is so funny about it  ? The LC is never obligatory and can be stopped Going that way is going to forfeit serious cost to another me if confused about it (I don't actually think so I think DWP would twig beforehand and DWP do not want 'Rule of Law' issues with the very  Tribunals they use to sort us out by abusing clients in that manner further  - so  road of caution on the topic of LC Applications . I felt the fear of hell imagining to go through that experience  for another 6 months so nothing on my part  to apologise for....
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    Type your commentThat is how it is... it is pretty straight forward
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    DWP send the forms to catch the fit-noter's and they don't want it back from me already sent by confused me, and I am to ignore any appts made thereafter they may offer, she left a note on the file and said sorry you got caught in the automated process HART86 (which was not failed to be sent back)  because that is what it is a automated process. Apart from my son dying I figure this is next worst experience which I have got through, seizures, fainting injuries and all the rest of it. Anyway the rest of the year should work out ok I have a great surgeon, Job Centre are not making appts yet although I check and we shall see what happens - Primarily my health is the best bet but I love hearing of other peoples successes during trying Serco/Salus processes.Whether I get it here or not - every win is a success story 
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    The win belonged to CAB, but I have 2 solicitor student friends have represented clients successfully for PIP and ESA and for free, in their own time these are the guys to be grateful for. Accustomed to loads of crying and carrying tissues. 
  • katiesymonkatiesymon Member Posts: 59 Connected
    edited July 2019
    DWP also said they would honor the Rule of Law, I'd hope so, it is the agency they use. They don't want to enter into a more complicated situation in that way (could you really imagine it) it would involve a load of constitutional challenges, or other complex legal questions, (DWP are already border-line with their contractor's behaviour in law) I accepted the error and apology , the non-legally binding recommendation from Tribunal was not to assess for 2 years, that wouldn't trouble me any way I don't care - but lets see how that goes.  Job Centre as yet are not asking for commitments - they can ring if I miss one so far no particular direction I'm sure we will find one eventually that will suit 
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