pip refusal for a second time
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jimbo57
Online Community Member Posts: 8 Connected
hi I've just joined this site to see if anyone else has been in the same situation, in aug 2016 I applied for pip due to my osteoarthritis getting worse along with other conditions. at the time of filling in the how your disability affects you form and at the assessment interview I was totally inexperienced in how I answered the question on paper and acted in front of the atos health professional and was refused pip and at first thought perhaps I really didn't qualify and was not entitled to pip but weeks later the Macmillan welfare nurse who was dealing with my wife questioned me about my mobility as she noticed me struggling to move and carry out tasks around my house and was concerned about how I was managing with my wife who had just returned home from 3 months in hospital including 32 days in intensive care after her bowel cancer surgery developed serious complications (sorry to go on about it) she advised me to contact a welfare support charity who helped me but after being refused again at the reconsideration stage even with more medical evidence supplied my case ended up at a tribunal where it was noted the health professionals musculoskeletal examination report of aug 2016 about me and also my ability to carry out tasks differed greatly from my gp surgery records about my long term conditions and a letter from the hospital senior consultant stating my condition was severe advising me to take more pain relief dated some 6 months earlier in march 2016 ,anyway at the tribunal held in aug 2017 I was awarded 10 points for carrying out daily tasks and 10 points for mobility a big difference from the 2 points I was awarded from the DWP and pip for my hearing loss but I do believe if I was not wearing my hearing aids I would not of got those 2 points when the tribunal panel handed the award letter to me there was an added comment on the back of it and signed by the judge it read ...by reason of his medical conditions mr x is significantly limited in particular in his mobility and as a result he qualifies for the award . in reaching its decision the tribunal placed particular reliance upon the medical evidence and his oral answers. so why was my medical evidence and oral answers not good enough for the atos so called health professional or the DWP
so the award was backdated to aug 2016 to run until aug 2019 fair enough, so back in april 2019 I thought about getting everything prepared for when the DWP and pip contact me again and requested my up to date medical records from my GP surgery to have ready to post along with the new how your disability affects you forms , at this point I will mention since 2016 my osteoarthritis and mobility has become worse I have venous insufficiency in my legs I developed deep venous ulcers on the back of my left leg from jan 2018 to nov 2018 spending over 40 weeks in compression wrapped bandages I have long term chronic oedema, long term chronic lymphedema and in the past I've been hospitalised 4 times with cellulitis and still get attacks of cellulitis , I suffer from gout, I have ankle flare causing reduced movement and non diabetic hyperglycaemia plus there's various skin conditions on my legs as well,
so I fill the forms in post them off with a bundle of medical details old and new and very quickly within a couple of weeks on Wednesday 3rd July I got a phone call from the independent assessment service (really its still the atos people) saying attend a pip interview on Saturday 6th of July at 08.30 bit of a rush to prepare but I said yes I will attend and did accompanied by my son, the HP was a physiotherapist and at the start I enquired do you have my previous details about my current pip situation or is this start from scratch again he said its treated as a new claim he then read all his questions from a screen and would only accept a yes or no answers moved quickly onto the next questions without engaging with me and told me several times he can only ask me questions that are written on his laptop screen and if I don't answer I will have to apply for pip again then at the end of the interview I made the point of telling him the structure and way he conducted the assessment was so one sided and not once was I able discuss or point out problems I encounter but said good bye after he said the dwp will contact you in 4 to 6 weeks
so Saturday the 10th of aug not one but two brown envelopes are posted through the letter box and not feeling to confident I read the first one that reminded me so much of the letter I received after my first assessment in 2016 , we have looked at your claim and can only award you 2 points for your hearing as you wear aids and absolutely nothing for mobility, now I'm thinking what about the part in that tribunal award letter that reads ….by reason of his medical conditions mr x is significantly limited in particular in his mobility and as a result he qualifies for the award . in reaching its decision the tribunal placed particular reliance upon the medical evidence and his oral answers. I understand conditions change but my conditions are degenerative they don't get better in the past 3 years they have become much worse
so why was my medical evidence and oral answers not good enough for the so called health professional or the DWP this time I accept having to be assessed but I want to be judged fairly I was gutted but then I open the second brown envelope and it reads having looked at the change in your medical conditions we will cancel your pip payments immediately and let you know you may have to pay us back money
I am now so disgusted with the system you may remember earlier I mentioned in 2016 my wife had bowel cancer and complications afterwards that became life threatening due to sepsis and she was to weak to receive chemo but since then the cancer came back again in 2017 and she needed two operations to remove tumours from her bladder and small bowel involving partial removal of various other bits internally she underwent chemo treatment that finished in feb 2018 but the DWP wasted no time in calling her in earlier this year to assess her and decided to take away her mobility allowance and reduce her daily living payments as well , please believe me when I say I'm not making this up before my wife's cancer our daughter developed breast cancer and whilst my wife was in intensive care in one hospital my daughter was having breast reconstruction in another hospital not to far away then a few months later her cancer returned in her spine and hips which needed replacing and has spread to her rib cage and skull so mostly in her bones she is monitored on a regular basis but has needed blood transfusions a number of times she will always have cancer, I'm really sorry to drag this story on but I've never posted or written anything about it before but were getting to a close soon three weeks ago my wife had another surgery for a stoma reversal but in the weeks leading up to her appointment she developed a lot of large bruising on her thighs and large amounts of clear mucus fluid coming out of her stoma so during her stoma reversal operation the consultant found and removed small tumour deposits in the small bowel area and a larger tumour from the peritoneum we have a meeting thurs 15th aug at 5 pm with the consultant we know there was an mdt meeting but we are dreading what we might be told I know the pip should be about my abilities but given what I'm telling I feel like cracking under the stress of challenging the DWP decision
so I am not classed as having a disability according to the assessment HP and DWP even though I cant walk for more than 2 mins without taking a rest on my crutches my venous circulation problems don't count my x-ray of 2015 shows complete loss of joint space on my hips and its now 2019 still bone rubbing bone a tribunal made a statement about my evidence but the system said no to me again at a time when I need things like a blue badge for myself plus my wife and daughter especially for hospitals why do I have to go back to a welfare charity for help again I bet you I will get refused again at the reconsideration stage and have to wait another year for a tribunal
when are these health professional going to be made accountable for their misleading reports that affect peoples lives
sorry it was a long read
so the award was backdated to aug 2016 to run until aug 2019 fair enough, so back in april 2019 I thought about getting everything prepared for when the DWP and pip contact me again and requested my up to date medical records from my GP surgery to have ready to post along with the new how your disability affects you forms , at this point I will mention since 2016 my osteoarthritis and mobility has become worse I have venous insufficiency in my legs I developed deep venous ulcers on the back of my left leg from jan 2018 to nov 2018 spending over 40 weeks in compression wrapped bandages I have long term chronic oedema, long term chronic lymphedema and in the past I've been hospitalised 4 times with cellulitis and still get attacks of cellulitis , I suffer from gout, I have ankle flare causing reduced movement and non diabetic hyperglycaemia plus there's various skin conditions on my legs as well,
so I fill the forms in post them off with a bundle of medical details old and new and very quickly within a couple of weeks on Wednesday 3rd July I got a phone call from the independent assessment service (really its still the atos people) saying attend a pip interview on Saturday 6th of July at 08.30 bit of a rush to prepare but I said yes I will attend and did accompanied by my son, the HP was a physiotherapist and at the start I enquired do you have my previous details about my current pip situation or is this start from scratch again he said its treated as a new claim he then read all his questions from a screen and would only accept a yes or no answers moved quickly onto the next questions without engaging with me and told me several times he can only ask me questions that are written on his laptop screen and if I don't answer I will have to apply for pip again then at the end of the interview I made the point of telling him the structure and way he conducted the assessment was so one sided and not once was I able discuss or point out problems I encounter but said good bye after he said the dwp will contact you in 4 to 6 weeks
so Saturday the 10th of aug not one but two brown envelopes are posted through the letter box and not feeling to confident I read the first one that reminded me so much of the letter I received after my first assessment in 2016 , we have looked at your claim and can only award you 2 points for your hearing as you wear aids and absolutely nothing for mobility, now I'm thinking what about the part in that tribunal award letter that reads ….by reason of his medical conditions mr x is significantly limited in particular in his mobility and as a result he qualifies for the award . in reaching its decision the tribunal placed particular reliance upon the medical evidence and his oral answers. I understand conditions change but my conditions are degenerative they don't get better in the past 3 years they have become much worse
so why was my medical evidence and oral answers not good enough for the so called health professional or the DWP this time I accept having to be assessed but I want to be judged fairly I was gutted but then I open the second brown envelope and it reads having looked at the change in your medical conditions we will cancel your pip payments immediately and let you know you may have to pay us back money
I am now so disgusted with the system you may remember earlier I mentioned in 2016 my wife had bowel cancer and complications afterwards that became life threatening due to sepsis and she was to weak to receive chemo but since then the cancer came back again in 2017 and she needed two operations to remove tumours from her bladder and small bowel involving partial removal of various other bits internally she underwent chemo treatment that finished in feb 2018 but the DWP wasted no time in calling her in earlier this year to assess her and decided to take away her mobility allowance and reduce her daily living payments as well , please believe me when I say I'm not making this up before my wife's cancer our daughter developed breast cancer and whilst my wife was in intensive care in one hospital my daughter was having breast reconstruction in another hospital not to far away then a few months later her cancer returned in her spine and hips which needed replacing and has spread to her rib cage and skull so mostly in her bones she is monitored on a regular basis but has needed blood transfusions a number of times she will always have cancer, I'm really sorry to drag this story on but I've never posted or written anything about it before but were getting to a close soon three weeks ago my wife had another surgery for a stoma reversal but in the weeks leading up to her appointment she developed a lot of large bruising on her thighs and large amounts of clear mucus fluid coming out of her stoma so during her stoma reversal operation the consultant found and removed small tumour deposits in the small bowel area and a larger tumour from the peritoneum we have a meeting thurs 15th aug at 5 pm with the consultant we know there was an mdt meeting but we are dreading what we might be told I know the pip should be about my abilities but given what I'm telling I feel like cracking under the stress of challenging the DWP decision
so I am not classed as having a disability according to the assessment HP and DWP even though I cant walk for more than 2 mins without taking a rest on my crutches my venous circulation problems don't count my x-ray of 2015 shows complete loss of joint space on my hips and its now 2019 still bone rubbing bone a tribunal made a statement about my evidence but the system said no to me again at a time when I need things like a blue badge for myself plus my wife and daughter especially for hospitals why do I have to go back to a welfare charity for help again I bet you I will get refused again at the reconsideration stage and have to wait another year for a tribunal
when are these health professional going to be made accountable for their misleading reports that affect peoples lives
sorry it was a long read
2
Comments
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I'm sorry the system sucks and you will have to appeal if you want to go forward. Did you get any advice from cab or welfare rights at all? That would be my next step. I'm about to reapply myself.1
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Hi thanks for responding I've got a bit more awareness about how things work about appealing so firstly I rang the dwp and have asked for the report from the health professional to be sent to me so I can read it and take it to an appointment at a welfare charity organisation who helped me before and then the reconsideration will be requested once they have looked at it2
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The whole thing is a lucky dip lottery. I have absolutely no health care qualifications but just reading your story it is easy to see you more than qualify. So sorry you have to fight simply for what is fair. Hope you find enough strength to fight on. My one tip is record your interviews if possible. The evidence of assessment unfairness is then more accrssible. Good luck.2
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This seems so unfair. Can you get in touch with your MP and get their support.2
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Its horrible for when you need a tribunal, all I can say is you have done it before so you know you can do it again, do the MR, then if needed do the appeal. Fight for it.2
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Hi @jimbo57,
Sorry to hear what you are going through regarding family and DWP, its obvious that your health has deteriated, (if you have had issues over 3 months) gather Consulation paperwork, GP letter etc submit them with Mandatory Reconsideration, explaining reasons why you feel ie mobility has got worse due to odema of the feet and other issues(swollen feet) your not able to walk a few steps with stopping due to pain in your hips etc, you have a month from when they (P.I.P) made their decision (check the date decision was made) i wish you the best of luck jimbo57.2 -
Hi @jimbo57 and thank you for taking the time to share this with us all. I'm so sorry to hear about your situation and I cannot imagine how stressful this has been.
Please do seek face to face advice from Citizen's Advice or AdviceLocal. They will be able to give you accurate advice which is suitable to your situation and will tell you the best way to move forward. Please do bare in mind that most appeals have to go to tribunal unfortunately.
I wish you the very best of luck, and please do let us know if there is anything else we can do to help.2 -
hi all sorry in the delay coming back on here but thanks for all the good advice lots of memories of how the process worked last time I ended up at a tribunal, just an update for now on Monday morning first thing I rang the DWP and requested a copy of the health professionals assessment report and could not believe it arrived the very next morning I also phoned the welfare charity group I used before but have to wait for an appointment next week , I have read the report and I am lost for words on how to express my anger about it, on page 1 he notes the use of my old consultation report from 18/10/16 as evidence but that report was overturned at a tribunal, he has only written I have osteoarthritis when its actually severe osteoarthritis, said no vascular clinic for my venous insufficiency and venous ulcer its on a least 8 pages of medical notes I was referred out to the hospital skin viability clinic as condition took over 36 weeks to heal, no other hospital admissions I've been hospitalised 4 times with cellulitis and he failed to include my oedema swollen feet and legs, said he has partial hearing loss when it is a profound loss, reported my medication as only standard dosage of pain relief taking 12 pills a day when its actually 18 a day, he can pop his pills out of the packaging indicating able to manage his medication, then the following activity sections prep food washing bathing toilet needs dressing ect are written near enough in the same way my report from 2016 was written, his findings from the musculoskeletal examination report are a joke all I done was remain seated rock my ankles back and forth twice lift my right knee I can only manage 2 inches off the ground reporting all my ankle joints are within normal range and here's the best bit he never!!! carried out a knee or hip examination on me for both legs or hips but reports able to fully extend straighten and bend left and right knees flexion 120 degrees within normal range, left and right hip flexion 130 degrees or more!! both hips bend within normal range external rotation on both hips 45 degrees or more!! again both within normal range, power in both legs normal, amazing I'm cured how did that happen because in march 2016 the joint space in my hips was completely worn and on the couch examination revealed my hip range of movement was 0 to 80 degrees not 130 degrees and no internal or external rotation on the right and only 5 degrees on the left not 45 degrees he's copied the report from 2016, the hp said I walked with a normal gait now I'm not an expert but a person with my degenerative conditions who walked with a reported gait in 2016 is surely going to be walking with gait 3 years later in 2019. Then there's he's able to read newspapers no glasses I was wearing glasses the whole time with bright yellow string holding them on my ears and behind my head, now I will be honest and say I done this next bit on purpose after I went to the 2016 assessment smartly dressed washed and groomed and that went against me so this time I had about 4 weeks of unshaved stubble on my face I cant grow a good beard and that kind of facial hair looks worse I was wearing an old t shirt and track suit bottoms with trainers and I took my photo on my phone for how I looked I was clean but not very presentable his report read , does not look tired well kempt casually dressed looks well average build pardon me average build to my embarrassment I am 62 years old 5ft 7ins tall and a good 12 stone overweight and attending the obesity clinic at the hospital average build indeed .thankyou for reading2
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Hi @jimbo57, thank you for this. I can completely see why you'd feel angry about this. Did you manage what award may be given based on the report's recommendations?2
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@jimbo57 - Hi Jimbo...I'm really sorry to hear about you situation, and also your wife. I hope she is as well as she can be at the moment...
Can I make a couple of suggestions?
You've made two quite lengthy posts but they both concentrate exclusively on your illnesses, and diagnoses. There doesn't seem to be anything about why you believe you should get PIP and which daily tasks (Descriptors) you have difficulty with. This is what PIP is about - functional ability, not diagnosis.
If you ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration I personally would concentrate on how you meet these descriptors, and not worry about what the assessor said (some of it doesn't seem to be relevant anyway such as whether or not you wear glasses?)
If you have a look through the posts on this forum you'll find plenty of help on this...
I hope everything turns out well; come back here if you need more advice...
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Yes I'm probably going on a bit to much but just need to let it all out a bit, the angry bit is I filled in how I mange or have difficulties with the activities truthfully on the forms but there was no chance given of discussing or voicing my part at the assessment it was fast tracked with yes or no answers I accept the need to be a bit more switched on and that's why I will get help I will say after being through a tribunal before and telling the truth backed up with medical evidence the panel were engaging I was allowed to state my case and they listened and read all the details so maybe this time if its a tribunal again which may be some time away I will attend with a clear head not angry present my case and have believe in being judged fairly that's all I want2
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@jimbo57 - I hope you didn't think I meant that you were going on a bit - everyone needs to sound off a bit (and I hope you feel better for doing so)
I was angry and annoyed when my assessment was done poorly.
Fortunately I realised that anger does no-one any good - and I managed to channel my energy into doing something positive.
Try to switch off for a bit - then make a start with the next stage.
There's plenty of help on here if you need it...
Good luck2 -
No offence taken I know I waffle on bit but that's just me I really appreciate people giving advice it'll keep me on track probably be better when I chat with welfare charity worker next week, lot of thanks anyway for your help2
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Good luck. I'm getting an appointment with welfare rights to help me with regards applying.1
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Pip is all about how your conditions affect you for most of the time day to day. I’m going to focus on the descriptors even more than last time. It’s so dumb as I need lots of help with daily living and travel but I got zero daily living and got standard mobility for travel as I can’t do it independently. However I do remember being more specific about the help I get with travelling breaking it down into steps. I still had to go to appeal to get it last time. The first assessment was a farce even though I had a health professional with me as the “nurse” blatantly ignored my requests for read backs and omitted key info on her report. At the panel hearing later on I felt that they had little knowledge of my health concerns and how they affected me and I felt they were unsympathetic.1
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Hi all, I've been quiet for a few days but I've happily wanted to take in a few comments in from welcome responses to my first couple of posts as on reflection I needed to settle my mind as I've been in the appeal situation once before so basically as I'm sure people do understand my anger about going through this a second time in 3 years and on reflection after chatting on here my mind is straight and focused and so with proper help that I'm going to seek I look forward to the challenge mainly if it inspires others not to give in I doubted myself before but support from others really helps thank you4
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hi everyone, its been a few weeks since I've had time to post a comment or report an update on here. anyway its been 4 weeks since speaking to the lady at the welfare help centre and getting the reconsideration part started she advised me it might take 10 weeks to get a response from the dwp but I'm geared up for a refusal at the first stage and heading for a tribunal , my reason for coming on here today is in relation to my wife's third lot of cancer its now classed as a rare form of peritoneal cancer and the oncologist will not be recommending chemo this time as its hard to target instead she has been placed on a watchful waiting and active surveillance follow up programme , we should have more details about what that means coming in the post in the next couple of days. so I'm asking does anyone know a little bit more about watchful waiting and active surveillance follow ups and also how does the dwp look at that situation is it classed as having cancer or being cancer free until a tumour forms many thanks1
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I'm sorry to hear that. I'm afraid we are medical professionals here and we would not be able to give you any advice regarding this. I would advise you to speak to her Consultant and they would give you all the information you need.Regarding benefits then if the diagnosis is terminal, less than 6 months then a DS1500 would be needed to be able to claim PIP and any other benefits she maybe entitled to. I would advise you to speak Macmillan Cancer support and they will give you all the help, support and advice you need. https://www.macmillan.org.uk/
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Thanks for a reply to the question I've Google as much as I can about the condition being a rare one without worrying my wife, also at the meetings with the consultant surgeon and oncologist details appeared to touch on what I have researched online but again it was a meeting between my wife and the doctors so I didn't want to interfere at that stage, also my wife has phoned the head colectoral nurse who is a lovely lady we have got to know and made enquiries about what does the future hold for her and she was very vague in her response saying it will be in a letter coming in the post, all the waiting and uncertainty is stressful especially as my wife has also received a esa assessment for work appointment in 2 weeks time, thanks again0
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