PIP MR Refused (OCD/Food Prep)

2

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,679 Championing
    edited December 2019
    You all need to ring them for an estimated waiting time for your area. This will just be a guide so do be aware of that. Backlogs are huge for most areas but hopefully you won’t be waiting as long as 2021.

    Im sorry to hear that your condition has got worse. Please also remember that HMCTS will only be able to take into consideration wha you were like the date the decision was made.

    also to add, please don’t lose hope, they are a lot more understanding than DWP and the health assessment providers. If you’re planning on appearing in person then this will be your best chance of a decision in your favour.
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    I can't use phones so it's not possible for me to ring them. :(   What has annoyed me a bit is that I initially sent them a letter asking for a paper claim form due to the phone issue and never got a response.  About 6 weeks later I forced myself to phone for the claim, made myself really ill doing it with long term effects and struggled to even get my NI number over to the call handler let alone anything else.  However they've included a copy of my original letter in the bundle.  So they had it but just ignored it!?  Seems fairly discriminatory to me...as they wouldn't expect people with physical conditions to climb stairs for an assessment...but there's no alternative to phones for those of us with mental conditions.

    My worsening conditions still aren't part of PIP, but at least they'll make the next ESA review easier I guess lol.


    I have said that I'll appear in person but I wouldn't have been able to do over the last week or so and now I doubt if it will be possible at all by the time I get the hearing.  
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 11,613 Online Community Programme Lead
    edited December 2019
    Hi @OverlyAnxious. Please don't lose hope. I know that's easier for me to say but I worry you're starting to believe you're not entitled which isn't going to make you the best advocate for your own appeal. 
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    edited December 2019
    I'm not entitled though...realistically I know I'm clutching at straws using their guidelines about 'fresh ingredients' to get any points for food prep, let alone the full 8 that I'd need...  It's not even law so just down to their discretion.  I can completely see it from their point of view, in that I am able to physically prep a 'meal' (albeit very basic) every day and use the oven safely.  I don't know what I could say to a tribunal to explain how difficult I find it and how restricted I am with what I can cook, but also have no choice to not do it.

    I'm aware of all the restrictions and limitations I have due to my conditions, and the ESA award is proof of that, but they just don't fit the PIP descriptors.  If only health conditions from ESA could be taken into account for Housing Benefit I wouldn't even be attempting PIP.  
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 11,613 Online Community Programme Lead
    I hope I'm not being too blunt here @OverlyAnxious, but I think you're overthinking things and then taking the questions and criteria too literally. Obviously, I don't know you personally, or how your condition affects you day-to-day aside from what you've told us, but from what you've described you meet the criteria.
    If you were able to get someone to get some face-to-face support they'd be able to help go through this with you.

    I think if you looked at the questions again and took the advice @Username_removed regularly gives of adding the word 'reliably' to them, it'd paint a very different picture.
    Can you prepare a meal reliably (i.e to a reasonable standard, repeatedly or in a reasonable time)? From what you have said, the answer would be no.

    It sounds like you keep looking back at the questions and talking yourself out of them applying to you. For example when it asks about help from other people, I know your condition prevents you from accepting help or allowing others to help prepare your food, but that doesn't mean you don't need help. From the sounds of it, you do. 

    I'm fairly certain this isn't the only area you've sold yourself short on either. Can I ask, is it the only area you've focused your MR on?
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    Yeah, it is all I've really focussed on in the MR. 

    I can't score anything for the journey planning because I drive and go out alone.  Not far, not for long, and I've got no chance of using public transport, but none of that matters.

    I can't score anything for bathroom issues because although I spend most of my day in there I can wipe my own bum so again it doesn't matter.

    I'm underweight and probably malnourished but that doesn't matter because I can physically lift food to my face.

    I can't take any meds so obviously no points for that one.

    I don't take long enough on the shower to be awarded anything for washing.

    The only place I might score 2 points is mixing with people...but because I attend the assessments alone and will be at the tribunal alone I'm almost certain I won't score anything there.

    I was hoping to use the report from my recent  Wellbeing Assessment as extra proof but it seems I wasted my time there completely...I've just been had Ia letter confirming that I have too many problems for thier service and that I've got to do to another F2F at exactly the same place for this new service!?  Surely they could just hand the report over to the new one as it's even in the same building!  I've got very little chance of making the appt as it's the week before Xmas with lots of people and traffic, and I've been having major unpredictable IBS issues over the last couple of weeks...

    Sorry for the rant but I'm getting very fed up with both the benefits and the health stuff atm.  Really can't cope physically or mentally with the latest phase of IBS issues but there's nothing I can do except try and wait them out.  I'm even typing this from the loo, wonders of technology eh!
  • 66Mustang
    66Mustang Community member Posts: 14,985 Championing
    Sorry I can’t help with everything but just a couple of points I thought of.

    The criteria includes help you “need but don’t get”. If you are underweight or malnourished you could state you need prompting to eat and drink - you don’t actually have to receive this prompting, you would just have to benefit from some encouragement if it did exist.

    The same could apply for taking medication - is there medication that may help you that you cannot take? If your OCD prevents you from taking them maybe you would benefit from someone prompting you to take it?
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    Yeah, it is all I've really focussed on in the MR. 

    I can't score anything for the journey planning because I drive and go out alone.  Not far, not for long, and I've got no chance of using public transport, but none of that matters.

    I can't score anything for bathroom issues because although I spend most of my day in there I can wipe my own bum so again it doesn't matter.

    I'm underweight and probably malnourished but that doesn't matter because I can physically lift food to my face.

    I can't take any meds so obviously no points for that one.

    I don't take long enough on the shower to be awarded anything for washing.

    The only place I might score 2 points is mixing with people...but because I attend the assessments alone and will be at the tribunal alone I'm almost certain I won't score anything there.

    I was hoping to use the report from my recent  Wellbeing Assessment as extra proof but it seems I wasted my time there completely...I've just been had Ia letter confirming that I have too many problems for thier service and that I've got to do to another F2F at exactly the same place for this new service!?  Surely they could just hand the report over to the new one as it's even in the same building!  I've got very little chance of making the appt as it's the week before Xmas with lots of people and traffic, and I've been having major unpredictable IBS issues over the last couple of weeks...

    Sorry for the rant but I'm getting very fed up with both the benefits and the health stuff atm.  Really can't cope physically or mentally with the latest phase of IBS issues but there's nothing I can do except try and wait them out.  I'm even typing this from the loo, wonders of technology eh!
    You would clearly score a lot of points based on the above information. I would strongly recommend you get yourself representation as you’re in danger of talking yourself out of a clear entitlement. Lovely bit of supportive caselaw re: driving and PIP can be found at https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/sb-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2019-ukut-274-aac for example. It shows that your assertion/assumptions re: driving and public transport are wholly wrong and you absolutely would score points. 

    I could analyse your analysis point by point but the key point has already been made by @Adrian_Scope and that is that the test is not whether you can do something but whether you can do it reliably. They are very different things. 
    I have tried to get representation but the local disability advice service won't help because they didn't help with the original claim.  The reason they didn't help with the original claim is because I physically couldn't get into their building let alone stay there for 2 hours to fill in the form.  I can't use phones and they wouldn't use email so I had to do it all myself in the end.  I hadn't found Scope at the time and didn't know about the descriptors, just tried to answer the questions as they were written.   If I had understood the descriptors I'd have realised I didn't fit them. 

    Sorry if I'm being dense but I can do these things reliably and don't understand where I should score points for any of the above?

    Every day I make dinner at exactly the same time using the oven.  I'm very limited in what I can make or eat (hence lacking vitamins etc) and often feel so nauseous from the anxiety of doing it and frequent IBS attacks around dinner time that I can't eat much but essentially I'll cook oven chips/potato waffles every day at 6pm.  Then open a packet of cooked ham or similar to have with it.  I don't need any prompting to do it because I have to stick to a rigid routine.  I wouldn't be able to use fresh ingredients, raw meat, raw veg, fresh fruit etc...but I can reliably prepare 'a meal' every day.

    Same with planning and following a journey.  Although I experience huge amounts of anxiety from doing it, I can do it reliably and safely and without overwhelming psychological distress.  I can't travel further than about 30 mins away, I can only use my feet or my car (can't even take lifts from relatives), I can only stay out for about an hour at a time on a good day, I have to stick to certain times (between rush hour and lunch in the morning, or between lunch and kids leaving school in the afternoon) and I can't commit to an arrival time as it depends entirely on how bad the IBS and anxiety are.  But I can do it alone, without causing danger to myself or anyone else so don't see how I'd score any points for mobility.  I don't have any physical conditions so would need to score 8 points for planning and following a journey to get any mobility award which is why I gave up on that in the MR.  The assessor wrote quite a lot about 'going out' on the report before going on to recommend 0 points which seemed like a huge waste of both our time!

    Although @66Mustang suggested prompting to take meds, this wouldn't work unless the assistant is going to force feed me with them against my will!  It is the OCD/health anxiety that stops me being able to take any form of medication due to the risk of adverse effects, I have not taken even a headache pill since 2003 as this is such a severe phobia for me.  I should of course be drugged up with anxiety meds, IBS meds, reflux meds, etc if the Doctors had their way!  The lack of meds has been used against me in the assessment and the MR.

    With regards to toilet needs, I have to visit the loo around 7 or 8 times a day for BM's, and probably spend around 3-4 hours a day sat on the loo on average.  But I generally get to the toilet on time so don't need any aids to avoid accidents (it does happen occasionally when I can't get home in time but not often).  So although I really struggle to cope mentally with that due to the OCD and health anxiety, it has no relevance for PIP at all.



  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    ilovecats said:
    @OverlyAnxious
    its rare but it happens.

    I personally have recommended points for a person with OCD with relation to cooking. They had a lot of evidence from psychiatrists and mental health occupational therapist who stated he was unable to perform the activity due to the way their OCD manifested (cannot close anything, turn anything off, shut lids, shut the fridge, turn off taps leading to quite bad ticking if they tried etc). It was quite specific to the person.

    They got 4 points for assistance.

    They had a lot of medication, specialist input with ongoing treatment and further therapy planned so this can be used as supporting evidence. 

    Should they not have had any of this evidence it would have be harder to support they needed assistance. 
    I don't have any evidence to support the OCD...  The only evidence I should have had was from the psych assessment 3 years ago but the assessor misunderstood me for most of it and even wrote that I didn't seem disordered...  Not sure if I misunderstood that but presumably it means I'm just a bit weird instead of actually having OCD!  The assessment was disregarded due to it's age anyway...

    I can't take medication, I have never had any specialist input and thanks to useless Wellbeing assessment 2 weeks ago I don't even have any planned treatment or a recent psych report to use!  

    So what are the chances now? :D


  • 66Mustang
    66Mustang Community member Posts: 14,985 Championing
    Although @66Mustang suggested prompting to take meds, this wouldn't work unless the assistant is going to force feed me with them against my will!  It is the OCD/health anxiety that stops me being able to take any form of medication due to the risk of adverse effects, I have not taken even a headache pill since 2003 as this is such a severe phobia for me.  I should of course be drugged up with anxiety meds, IBS meds, reflux meds, etc if the Doctors had their way!  The lack of meds has been used against me in the assessment and the MR.

    I understand where you are coming from but it sounds like prompting would actually help you, even if you don’t want any (which by its very nature you probably don’t, you just want to be left alone). I have been there myself.

    As for being forced I actually used the phrase “robust prompting” for one of the descriptors, which basically meant someone has to make me do it.

    Think of it another way: if you had a headache and someone “robustly prompted” you to take medication, it would help you in the long run.

    Sorry if this is unhelpful, I know OCD is very complex. These are just some thoughts from my experience.
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    66Mustang said:
    Although @66Mustang suggested prompting to take meds, this wouldn't work unless the assistant is going to force feed me with them against my will!  It is the OCD/health anxiety that stops me being able to take any form of medication due to the risk of adverse effects, I have not taken even a headache pill since 2003 as this is such a severe phobia for me.  I should of course be drugged up with anxiety meds, IBS meds, reflux meds, etc if the Doctors had their way!  The lack of meds has been used against me in the assessment and the MR.

    I understand where you are coming from but it sounds like prompting would actually help you, even if you don’t want any (which by its very nature you probably don’t, you just want to be left alone). I have been there myself.

    As for being forced I actually used the phrase “robust prompting” for one of the descriptors, which basically meant someone has to make me do it.

    Think of it another way: if you had a headache and someone “robustly prompted” you to take medication, it would help you in the long run.

    Sorry if this is unhelpful, I know OCD is very complex. These are just some thoughts from my experience.
    You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.  No matter how robustly you prompt it... ;) 

    I do see what you're saying though, and that is a very interesting thought about meds helping in the long run if I was forced to take them.

    All replies are helpful, I'm certainly not intending to dismiss any of them, even if I am coming across as a bit of an ass at the moment! :#
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 11,613 Online Community Programme Lead
    You're not coming across as an ass @OverlyAnxious. I do worry you may be overthinking the descriptors and therefore not understanding them. @Username_removed is a Welfare Rights Officer and can see how you'd score points just on your descriptions you've shared here with us. 
    I really wish there was a way you could access some support with this and will keep looking for other suggestions. 
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    So, it's been over 2 weeks now since I received my bundle - presumably the DWP sent one to HMCTS at the same time?  But the online tracker still hasn't updated, still says DWP haven't responded to them.  Just wondered if anyone else had submitted an online appeal recently how long it took between receiving the bundle and the online system updating?  I can't use phones as I've said many times now (I'm sure you're all bored of hearing lol!) so can't phone to check if it's got there or not.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,679 Championing
    Yes, HMCTS will have received exactly the same as you. I have no idea how long it takes to update online.
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    Online system updated today lol...  16 days (12 working days) after receiving the bundle myself just in case anyone else is in the same position.

    Just got to wait for the hearing date now...
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 523 Pioneering

    The only place I might score 2 points is mixing with people...but because I attend the assessments alone and will be at the tribunal alone I'm almost certain I won't score anything there.

    ----

    I feel so bad for you, I quoted this bit because I 100% agree, it feels like a lose/lose is forced on those who cannot get someone to attend with them, not all mentally ill people have support, and the DWP enforce attending f2f (when they are deemed required), so you either effectively close your claim by not attending, or attend and then get told you must have no mental issue because you handled a f2f by yourself (this applies for home visits also).

    On the other stuff, been able to lift food to your mouth doesnt mean 0 points for food, I can do that, but I got points because I need a stool to prepare it. Similar with bathroom, if you need an aid, then you should get points.
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    edited December 2019
    worried33 said:

    The only place I might score 2 points is mixing with people...but because I attend the assessments alone and will be at the tribunal alone I'm almost certain I won't score anything there.

    ----

    I feel so bad for you, I quoted this bit because I 100% agree, it feels like a lose/lose is forced on those who cannot get someone to attend with them, not all mentally ill people have support, and the DWP enforce attending f2f (when they are deemed required), so you either effectively close your claim by not attending, or attend and then get told you must have no mental issue because you handled a f2f by yourself (this applies for home visits also).

    On the other stuff, been able to lift food to your mouth doesnt mean 0 points for food, I can do that, but I got points because I need a stool to prepare it. Similar with bathroom, if you need an aid, then you should get points.
    Thanks, as you say there must be a lot of people in similar situations!  I seem to be a special case to be fair (in more ways than one! :D ), whereas the majority of people do find it easier to do things with the help of another person...I find it more difficult the more people that are added to any situation, regardless of how long I've known them.  But that does also mean I don't need to pay for a carer/assistant which is ultimately what PIP is designed for really.  

    I had to try and make a 'family' visit last week, in a familiar location but with 3 people instead of the usual 1...it caused me huge problems, hours in the bathroom before leaving, constant uncontrollable shaking, nausea etc, I forced myself there and it took 10 minutes before I could even get through the door, and even then that was only because I needed to use the bathroom urgently and wouldn't have made it home!  After that I tried to sit in the front room with them but could barely get any words out, couldn't make any eye contact and lasted about 30 mins before having to leave completely and was in a right state for the rest of the evening.  That's just been another massive knock to the PIP process really, I'm now almost certain I won't be able to get into the tribunal with 3 other people in an unfamiliar location, let alone stay there for any length of time.

    With regards to lifting food to my mouth, I should've made it clearer, that part is for the 'taking nutrition' descriptor, not food preparation.  I also don't use any bathroom aids...and sadly they don't count using huge amounts of loo roll, water, electric (water heating) and soap as extra costs incurred by my conditions (IBS & OCD for this part).
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,679 Championing
    You said, " But that does also mean I don't need to pay for a carer/assistant which is ultimately what PIP is designed for really."

    I disagree to some extent. PIP doesn't have to be used for help/support or anything along those lines. It's there to help because people who have a disability and find it more difficult to do things than a person who doesn't have a disability. It's there to help with the cost of life in general. It can be spent on anything you want to spend it on.

    I don't pay for a carer or support, my PIP goes on my heating/water costs during the winter months because i keep my heating on about 18 hours a day because the cold makes my condition a million times worse. I also use the bath daily because hot water also helps my pain when it's at it's worst and this is every evening and a bath will help reduce those pain levels, even if it's for a short period of time.

    I completely agree with others here and i also think you're missing the point here and the more i read your comments the more convinced i am that you do qualify for PIP but you seem to be looking for reasons why you won't score those points, instead of finding the reasons why you would. Remember HMCTS will apply case law, DWP don't.
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Community member Posts: 3,071 Championing
    I do appreciate that PIP can be used for anything, but I still believe it was originally set up to pay for care, especially as all the questions ask about assistance and prompting.  My Nan had carers quite often so I do understand the high costs associated with that, compared to a bit of extra loo roll...but equally I've bought bathroom aids for elderly relatives, so know that the small one-off cost of a raised toilet seat for example, is considerably less than the ongoing extra cost's of my utility and grocery bills.  It's difficult to make the system totally fair though.

    I'm looking for any questions I could be asked so that I've got an answer for them when it comes to tribunal, I can't wing things on the day and will just get flustered if I haven't got some answer ideas prepared.  Unfortunately I'm just seeing lots of questions that I don't know how to answer or justify.  With respect, a few members have now said they can see points that I should be awarded for PIP in my comments, but without elaborating on that and I'm struggling to see exactly where I should be focussing for those points.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Championing
    edited December 2019
    @overlyanxious - I also think that you are overthinking this ...it's a good idea being prepared for the tribunal but you won't be able to anticipate every question.If you think about it long enough then you will find a problem but life doesn't come with a pre-prepared script unfortunately!!

    Don't forget also that whilst people offer advice and opinion on here (myself included) no-one knows your condition as well as you. Decide in which areas you should have scored points and justify this...

    My advice - you've submitted your application so forget about it now until you get the date. On the day be yourself, and tell the truth.If you don't know the answer to a question then say so.