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Late night non-sleeping thoughts once again

Topkitten

Firstly I would like to make a couple of things clear. I love intellectual discussions especially when it helps me understand other people better. Secondly some of the things I write sometimes sound arrogant or appear to put others down in some way. I had too many years programming computers when younger and it makes me sound unintentionally condescending at times so please try to take what I say as being completely neutral and simply being interested in others opinions.

I am 62 and male and, according to some, had things really easy when it comes to relationships compared to most boys / men, even though that in itself has led to difficulties that many do not appreciate. Getting along with women has, for me, never been difficult and try as I might Ito believe otherwise I have always assumed that girls / women who think I am attractive are crazy in some way, lol! However, the ease at getting into relationships has actually made it much more difficult to sustain long-term relationships either due to completely misunderstanding who I was with or by refusing to admit that I don't "know it all" and consequently making horrendous gaffs because I was too dumb to talk properly, lol! I remember the first time I asked a girl out (age 13 I think) who I thought I had no chance with and who couldn't accept quickly enough only to be too dumb to ask whether to hold hands or cuddle and (as she brought a friend and her friends bf) said bf had to actually push me up against her physically so that I would get my first ever real kiss because I was taking far too long to try. Obviously I was so awful in all respects that I was made fun of by her and her friends for days, and all because I wouldn't actually ask her what she wanted from me for fear of appearing stupid. See? I said ease of getting into things wasn't always as easy as it seems, lol!

Being old has, I believe, led me to a fairly good understanding of how and why older men behave the way they do and am happy to discuss this later if it helps others but first I would like to understand better why women react the way they do to older men. I appreciate that when it comes to disabilities such actions by men and women are exaggerated compared to the way healthy people behave but the same logic still seems to apply just more so.

And so to the actual question itself (sorry for the long preamble).

It has been my observations both of myself and other men that makes me wonder why it is that women in general somehow undervalue themselves in either looks, intelligence or attitudes / confidence and seem to always end up being with men who are, to me, not a patch on those that they really deserve to be with. I wonder whether it is that maybe women are constantly bombarded by adverts telling them they should be better than they really are. Or maybe it's because men constantly devalue women to their face in order to do better for themselves thus almost brainwashing women into accepting less. Of course maybe women can see something in men that it is impossible for men to see for themselves. Another option I guess is that it's a clever ruse by women to gain stability in an unstable world (if so then please help me understand where I am going wrong, lol!)

I am trying to keep this a little lighthearted because I know that dating and relationships can be very stressful and upsetting especially when they go wrong (something I am all too aware of myself). Please though do give serious thought to why it is that I don't seem to be able to understand people better.

Ofc, if anyone wishes to know just how badly my long term relationships have been I will go into more detail but keep in mind that up until I was 49 I was apparently completely healthy and it was only then that I discovered that some of my simple issues were actually the result of a degenerative chronic condition.

TK

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Tammyjane33

Hi @Topkitten welcome to the scope online community. I'm Tammy one of the volunteer community champions here on the site. It's great to meet you.
Im here to talk and support you ?so feel free to ask any questions.

Tammyjane33

@Topkitten
Thankyou for being open and honest and sharing your thoughts /experiences. You don't have to justify yourself but thank you for describing your personality so others understand. We don't judge. We are here to help you and support you. It's nice to talk to people and get to know people with different backgrounds and personalities ?everyone has something about them. that makes us unique and shows our individuality.

Adrian_Scope

I think this is quite a difficult one to answer and obviously not being a woman, it's probably not my place to. But I can imagine being able to determine how partners stack up against each other in terms of value is very subjective. What one person looks for in a partner is a personal preference that even they won't be able to fully define.
I'll be interested to see the responses.

Topkitten

@Adrian_Scope. considering the lack of responses I'm wondering if the ladies have been scared away from the topic. I did try to explain it's more than morbid curiosity which. considering my relationships experiences, would be a valid thought. I would just like to hear others opinions on whether they feel pressured into being something they would rather not be, which is the type of response I guess I expected. I also realize that the younger generations now also apply such pressures to men too but this seems to go right over the head of men my age and those perhaps a decade younger or so. I know that my youngest (a son) certainly feels such pressure without seeming to realize it.

TK

Ami2301

Sorry for the delay in replying to your question @Topkitten it's made me think really long and hard, and it's made me realise a few home truths.

I strongly feel that I've never had a father figure. Up until my partner and I got together, I'd been abused in every way possible, bullied, you name it. It's been difficult to pick myself up and build up my self-esteem. Since my late teens, I think because I've been knocked down since a very early age by a certain male, I sought validation as I was convinced I was never enough.

I apologise if that doesn't make sense, but if you have any further questions then I'm happy to answer any.

heydarling

Topkitten said:

Firstly I would like to make a couple of things clear. I love intellectual discussions especially when it helps me understand other people better. Secondly some of the things I write sometimes sound arrogant or appear to put others down in some way. I had too many years programming computers when younger and it makes me sound unintentionally condescending at times so please try to take what I say as being completely neutral and simply being interested in others opinions.

I am 62 and male and, according to some, had things really easy when it comes to relationships compared to most boys / men, even though that in itself has led to difficulties that many do not appreciate. Getting along with women has, for me, never been difficult and try as I might Ito believe otherwise I have always assumed that girls / women who think I am attractive are crazy in some way, lol! However, the ease at getting into relationships has actually made it much more difficult to sustain long-term relationships either due to completely misunderstanding who I was with or by refusing to admit that I don't "know it all" and consequently making horrendous gaffs because I was too dumb to talk properly, lol! I remember the first time I asked a girl out (age 13 I think) who I thought I had no chance with and who couldn't accept quickly enough only to be too dumb to ask whether to hold hands or cuddle and (as she brought a friend and her friends bf) said bf had to actually push me up against her physically so that I would get my first ever real kiss because I was taking far too long to try. Obviously I was so awful in all respects that I was made fun of by her and her friends for days, and all because I wouldn't actually ask her what she wanted from me for fear of appearing stupid. See? I said ease of getting into things wasn't always as easy as it seems, lol!

Being old has, I believe, led me to a fairly good understanding of how and why older men behave the way they do and am happy to discuss this later if it helps others but first I would like to understand better why women react the way they do to older men. I appreciate that when it comes to disabilities such actions by men and women are exaggerated compared to the way healthy people behave but the same logic still seems to apply just more so.

And so to the actual question itself (sorry for the long preamble).

It has been my observations both of myself and other men that makes me wonder why it is that women in general somehow undervalue themselves in either looks, intelligence or attitudes / confidence and seem to always end up being with men who are, to me, not a patch on those that they really deserve to be with. I wonder whether it is that maybe women are constantly bombarded by adverts telling them they should be better than they really are. Or maybe it's because men constantly devalue women to their face in order to do better for themselves thus almost brainwashing women into accepting less. Of course maybe women can see something in men that it is impossible for men to see for themselves. Another option I guess is that it's a clever ruse by women to gain stability in an unstable world (if so then please help me understand where I am going wrong, lol!)

I am trying to keep this a little lighthearted because I know that dating and relationships can be very stressful and upsetting especially when they go wrong (something I am all too aware of myself). Please though do give serious thought to why it is that I don't seem to be able to understand people better.

Ofc, if anyone wishes to know just how badly my long term relationships have been I will go into more detail but keep in mind that up until I was 49 I was apparently completely healthy and it was only then that I discovered that some of my simple issues were actually the result of a degenerative chronic condition.

TK

@Topkitten thanks for sharing your thoughts interesting stuff

I agree women massively undervalue themselves and their abilities. As someone who recognises this, if I openly talk about it I automatically get called a feminist or people say I’m high maintanance. I definitely think devaluing women or the idea of them having to live up to a beauty standard is a part of the patriarchy and it’s surprising really many men like women who will stand up for themselves and value them. I think I lot of people, men and women are in the relationships just for the sake of it, not because it helps each other and thats where we get problems. Also, we need WAY more education for people on narcopaths, sociopaths and the like because for some people they are used to this, our society makes you feel less than for not being with someone and so you’ll put up with bad behaviour not knowing its actually the other person playing you and they’re severly mentally ill.

I get what you mean about appearing easy and it not actually being easy. I’ve always got on well with men and found it easy to talk to them. We’re all the same really no matter different parts. I like men and how cute they can be. They’re ease with doing handiwork, wanting to care and be there for you and seeing their soft side when no-one else is around. It’s like a big bear really

I’ve always found relationships difficult despite the ease with men - maybe everyone does they just dont talk about it. I’ve also found myself in the past getting involved with narcisstic emotionaly unavailable men - I think this is something our society encourages with the focus on sex, outer living rather than inner and quality time with someone rather than relationshit.

Nice hearing your thoughts on the matter as a man. Hope you can get some validation and better sleep knowing a woman has replied.

It sounds like, through your life and despite troubles you have always tried. To me, that’s what matters.

I love intellectual topics. Keep posting. Best

Topkitten

@Ami2301, I understand about the abuse and, to be honest, it seems more prevalent in disabled relationships than it is when both are healthy. I used to try to be a friend to a young lady half my age because it was easy to see that she had been abused before. Unfortunately she mistook my friendship and general gentlemanly behavior for love, having never had a friend before that didn't try to take advantage of it. She also wouldn't take no for an answer either which made things difficult before I became too ill to travel that far anyway.

@heydarling. I know what you mean about being called a feminist or high maintenance as I have heard many a man complain about such when in actual fact it's simply that they weren't getting everything they wanted and had to make an effort themselves.

On a slight tangent but related and despite my laughing at Durex for producing a gel to "win orgasms", I have found that the majority of men over 50 think that the use of "toys" in the bedroom are both dirty and unnecessary. Many seem to think that "getting on and getting off" is all that is required and women should accept such a situation. In fact when I expressed my laughter on FB I was reprimanded by half a dozen women who all stated that most men aren't interested in whether the woman enjoyed things or not. A lot of this is down to simple arrogance on behalf of men and this attitude seems to spill over into the relationships most men have, or so I believe.

TK

heydarling

@Topkitten those women are right - it depends on who and what you're prepared to put up with.

I have met men that take real pride and pleasure in pleasing a woman, I'd say that is one of the most attractive things about a man when it's clear he wants to do his best in all respects. Might not always work nor be perfect, that not the point. I feel it's a need in men, like it's something they pride themselves to do and it comes out either in the best way or the worst way possible by complete ignorance expecting someone else to do it all.

Women and you have to also be responsible for yourself. No-one's going to know what pleases you unless you say and that's going to show you exactly whos worth having around if you're straight up about that and there's no comprise together but complete ignorance

'Win orgasms' sounds awfuly narccistic to me. Like it's a gambling pot where you 'win'. Part of our culture now seeing sex as just a 'win' and 'I'm better than you because I win orgasms, even if those orgasms are not so good and being given to someone abusing me'. It's like chocolate, its just a commodity not enjoyed for what each and every individual one is.

It's more complex than just 'gimmie orgasms', I'd be much more inclined to **** after I'd been served a delicious home cooked dinner than special lube

Joining your late night thoughts discussion and quite suitably it's late night here

You did your best with the lady friend by the sounds of it.

Yes relationships are a two way street, got to be prepared to look at yourself, be with someone who can do that too as an adult without judgment with kindness accept we sometimes mess up it's human.

I've had men in the past talk looking for advice and everytime I think the best thing I've said is if you can focus on pleasing the lady first, you will win every time. Never had follow up on that so I can't confirm its true - it's a case of being passionate with who you love not using them as a commodity for your pleasure and only that which I feel a lot of men and women do nowadays then wonder why thier relationships go wrong. We are human beings and need to treat each other the same. Sex isn't a commodity you can cut away from human existence to be sold - it affects who we are, how we feel, the choices we make etc who we're having sex with and how we feel about it so many people in uncomfortable relationships why

thespiceman

Hello @Topkitten Maybe you need to stop accessing escorts as you a many times told the community in many posts.

Understand it hurts me to say this bit, but attaining services to pay for sex, how can you judge women.

I had a friend when I was in business, who used these services. Yes he was disabled the problem was, I often met ladies who had a friend make a foursome for dinner or dates.

He could be difficult expecting to be having sex after every date, which in those days was a simple polite denial.

That was never my intentions to have this friend do this, hurt me and the ladies I was meeting.

In the end went to the toilet and was gone quite a while, we left and that was that.

Stopped asking him and he went back to paying escorts and much more than he could afford.

He could and did got this image of women difficult to the one he perceived to be in his mind.

Must add my all time favourite tale was a former friend who decided to become a gay man, which he was not. Just to get near ladies as he thought it would work.

Of course saw through all of that dubbed The Pink Panther by any of the ladies who became accustomed to his act.

I am embarrassed to say and humbled but a lot ladies like me for two reasons they first feel safe, second I am aware of certain qualities I have.

Not about looks in my opinion it is about the way you present yourself and the honesty and being open, truthful never lie or exaggerate.

Lots of books out there on the theme.

My favourite Men are From Mars, Women From Venus.

Informative, interesting debates the differences.

Another thing as we get older we want security, feel safe be happy, content.

Sex is that important happiness , enjoyment of life comes from need to be appreciated , loved not sex but cared for.

Kind words, be interested and listening, left an all female mental health charity. The staff and clientele all ladies one or two men arrived but disappeared.

I leant more than ever just by listening be supportive, have compassion some kindness a lot and being a friend.

Old fashioned courteous manners are important to me.

As a middle Fifties gentleman just like my own space never think of meeting any one, maybe the old adage if you keep looking, wanting never found love.

You Can't Hurry Love as the song says.

Only in my life met these lovely ladies of a certain mature ages. Do have been married numerous times and still not happy, paying vast sums of money never find any one.

On these cruises and much more.

If you want happiness enjoyment move and cope deal with anything. Start to change.

Find what is in your heart. Find any skills or talents you have. Use a social network , use volunteering but most of important of all.

Being the real person and be honest who that person you are.

Ladies hate deceit lied to abusive, men. Unkept, rude arrogant, nasty and fake or frauds. Self centred selfish and being used, just a few things I do know.

I had and just know this because many of those who have been through a lot are a lot of the time had been my friends.

Respect have compassion and empathy. Lot of love, attention and care.

In the past care and treasure those moments.

Never asked about the disability or anything knew me as a perfect gentleman a time of old fashioned manners and attitudes concern and care do go in harmony.

Also my humour being funny dare I say helps those with some problems to evaporate for a while.

Laughter is the best medicine.

By having a positive attitude a attractive quality, confidence self esteem very much so confidence in your awareness.

Life will change and sunshine will come, have down depression and some days not recognise that the need to ease the situation you are in.

Be alone and never understand the reasons why maybe need to think about doing that.

Have a heart start to be responsive, adapt your circumstances then who know.

Put stones in your path down go around or over do we stop still.

Life is about contributions being charitable, good heart, kind supportive. The relationships you want will emerge eventually.

@thespiceman

Topkitten

Actually @thespiceman, that was just a phase I went through. Despite being a teenager in the 70's when most guys got their "leg over" very quickly with a girl and often moving to the next just as fast, I was always too gentlemanly and would avoid it when it was too easy or served up on a plate. Not that I thought I was doing so at the time. I was also married soon after my 20th birthday so never had those 20's options to sleep around either. So, by the time I became ill and gave up on relationships in 2006 I had only slept with 7 girls / women. I actually felt like I had missed out somewhere. When mum died a few years ago she left me some money so I took the opportunity to "put it about a bit" so to speak. Since I had no intention of dragging another woman down with me I used some of the money mum left to achieve a couple of things with women seeking much the same.

Firstly, as I said, simply to experience more women. Secondly to experience a greater age difference (and therefore proclivities). Finally to prove to myself that my condition didn't preclude my giving and receiving the enjoyment of something that is an important part of relationships to most. It was also a chance to experiment with different things and to learn more about giving enjoyment which, surprisingly considering who I was with, I found I was still pretty good at it and surprised most of them with what I could do for them (usually it's the other way round). I also learnt more simply because I wasn't scared to discuss things frankly due to no fear of messing things up (a normal reaction to being in a relationship).

I've proved to myself what I needed to and improved what I could do given appropriate circumstances and consequently stopped seeing such ladies over 18 months ago. I am now back into monastery mode as I was from 2006 to 2015 and still have no intention of getting involved in relationships. I will say though that although it's an expensive habit there are no alternatives for some and it isn't something either dirty or disgusting so long as you avoid the low-level street based prostitutes. The ladies that do **** work are fulfilling their need for both money and the physical act itself and most of them find it hard to confine themselves to a normal relationship. In fact, a few of the ladies were married and had families, yet continuing to work as they always had.

It's important to always remember that everyone is different and try to treat everyone with respect and the only reason I separate escorts from prostitutes and frown on the latter is that often such people (both men and women) are forced into the life by money, drug habit or desperation issues and hence physical contact with them is risky.

I'll comment on the other ideas you have brought up later as this post is long enough already and I don't want to make massively long posts which people just get too bored to read through.

TK