How would a tribunal work?

kali110

A few days ago i sent my mandatory reconsideration and evidence, GP letter stating i have mental health issues as well as mobility issues (foot), mental health letter, Podiatry letter (ruptured foot) previous injury. My podiatrist even stated in the letter how i was having difficulties and struggle to walk. Also had a letter saying im high risk as i suffer from anxiety and depression. 

Previously pip awarded me 
6 points daily living 
4 mobility.


i called up today to ask for an update and a decision has been made. (Really fast).

i have been awarded standard mobility.

However I am disappointed as i believe i should have been given enhance mobility and at least standard for daily living. I have arranged for a case worker to call me back in the next 48 hours. 

However moving forward if i wanted to take this to tribunal how would it be done, considering the current Covid-19 situation. Also any advice that can make the caseworker change the decision on the phone call?

thanks.

Ails

Hi @kali110 and welcome to the Community.  It's nice to meet you.  I'm sorry, but I'm unable to answer your questions as not too sure about this, but other members or one of the Scope Team, who have more knowledge of this maybe able to help and if so will post here.  However, please find some information which Scope has put together about PIP which you may find helpful -

https://www.scope.org.uk/advice-and-support/personal-independence-payment-pip/

I wish you well with PIP and hope you find the information you are looking for.  Please stay in touch and let us know how you get on with this.  All the best. 

chiarieds

Hi @kali110 - Welcome to the community, & thank you for joining. As the link that Ails has given above shows, you can ask for your award to be looked at again with a Mandatory Reconsideration. You have 1 month from the date of your decision letter to apply for this, which is best done in writing.

What may be lacking in the info previously sent, is a couple of examples as to the difficulties you faced (at the time of your assessment) for each applicable activity or descriptor, i.e. how your functional ability is limited by your disability. Why is the activity difficult, what happens, does it cause fatigue or pain during/afterwards, does it take you longer than someone without a disability, can you do it safely, can you repeat it as often as you'd like, etc. Please see the link below showing where points may be gained, so long as you explain why in detail. Your own evidence is just as much important as your medical info.

https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/asset-library/Scores-for-PIP-Descriptors-2020.pdf

If this doesn't change your award, then at present Tribunals will be done based on paper (all the evidence, your initial claim form, why you're appealing, etc). If it can't be judged on paper, as they may have some questions, then it would be a phone tribunal currently.

I hope all goes well, & please do say if you have any other questions at any time, or if we can help in any other way.

kali110

Ails said:

Hi @kali110 and welcome to the Community.  It's nice to meet you.  I'm sorry, but I'm unable to answer your questions as not too sure about this, but other members or one of the Scope Team, who have more knowledge of this maybe able to help and if so will post here.  However, please find some information which Scope has put together about PIP which you may find helpful -

https://www.scope.org.uk/advice-and-support/personal-independence-payment-pip/

I wish you well with PIP and hope you find the information you are looking for.  Please stay in touch and let us know how you get on with this.  All the best. 

Thank you so much for all the information, this was the mandatory reconsideration decision although the   decision was made two days after they received my evidence. I was still to send my document as you have attached the link above. I have requested to speak to the caseworker to look over it again or to wait for my letter which states in detail why i cant carry out the activities. 

kali110

chiarieds said:

Hi @kali110 - Welcome to the community, & thank you for joining. As the link that Ails has given above shows, you can ask for your award to be looked at again with a Mandatory Reconsideration. You have 1 month from the date of your decision letter to apply for this, which is best done in writing.

What may be lacking in the info previously sent, is a couple of examples as to the difficulties you faced (at the time of your assessment) for each applicable activity or descriptor, i.e. how your functional ability is limited by your disability. Why is the activity difficult, what happens, does it cause fatigue or pain during/afterwards, does it take you longer than someone without a disability, can you do it safely, can you repeat it as often as you'd like, etc. Please see the link below showing where points may be gained, so long as you explain why in detail. Your own evidence is just as much important as your medical info.

https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/asset-library/Scores-for-PIP-Descriptors-2020.pdf

If this doesn't change your award, then at present Tribunals will be done based on paper (all the evidence, your initial claim form, why you're appealing, etc). If it can't be judged on paper, as they may have some questions, then it would be a phone tribunal currently.

I hope all goes well, & please do say if you have any other questions at any time, or if we can help in any other way.

Yes this was the decision from the Mandatory Reconsideration. Although i still had one more document to send they made the decision as soon as they received my evidence in 2 days. I still had to sent the form that states why i cant do the activities. I am going to call them up today and ask to speak to a caseworker to look at it again or wait to receive my form. Wasn't expecting them to make the decision in 2 days after receiving my evidence. And i don't know how they have only awarded me standard Mobility £23 p/w I was so upset yesterday and felt like giving up. Hate having to explain in so much details despite them having everything they need. 

What are most of the Tribunal outcomes like currently? Also is their a waiting time? I am so stressed and worried. 

Thank you so much for you advice. 

chiarieds

Hi @kali110 - I'm sorry about the difficulty with your MR. I learnt yesterday that you can in fact ask for more than one MR, rather than going straight to an appeal. Something useful to know. However MRs have a success rate in changing things at less than 1 in 5.

With some Tribunals now being on paper, they're getting through more appeals, & waiting times are consequently reducing to approx. 3+ months. This will still be dependent on your own local waiting time. The other good news is that there is a higher appeal success rate at the moment.

It's great you've sent details of your functional ability, & I hope they look at your MR again. Kindly let us all know how you get on.

kali110

chiarieds said:

Hi @kali110 - I'm sorry about the difficulty with your MR. I learnt yesterday that you can in fact ask for more than one MR, rather than going straight to an appeal. Something useful to know. However MRs have a success rate in changing things at less than 1 in 5.

With some Tribunals now being on paper, they're getting through more appeals, & waiting times are consequently reducing to approx. 3+ months. This will still be dependent on your own local waiting time. The other good news is that there is a higher appeal success rate at the moment.

It's great you've sent details of your functional ability, & I hope they look at your MR again. Kindly let us all know how you get on.

I tried my best to and asked for another MR even spoke to the case managers manager, however they said i have to put in an appeal and send whatever i have to send to support my application, however he said before it goes to court and once the appeal is registered they will get someone to look over it once again.

i am worried how long the timescale is for an appeal though. Its so much stress. 

Thank you for the info, i will keep you updated 

kali110

Does anyone know the procedure of processing the appeal after MR to PIP and what I should include. Anyone have any experience or knowledge, much appreciated. 

Thanks x

chiarieds

Hi @kali110 - I'll ask @mikehughescq to see if he will look through what you've said, & advise about tribunals as regards PIP. Thank you in advance mikehughes.

kali110

Thanks @chiarieds I really appreciate the help.

mikehughescq

You can put in another MR but frankly with a 16% success rate there are limited circumstances in which I would do that. There’s no magic form of words anyone can give you. The outcome is essentially random at MR. Getting advice from DWP about what to do next is a poor idea. Their staff are not trained in the law. They’re trained about processes and deadlines. They’ll tell you what their guidance says happens next but not what the law says.

You may be able to persuade a caseworker otherwise but that’s rare and unlikely in the absence of anecdotal examples. I doubt you’ll have time to put that together before any conversation. 

In my view it’s appeal time. Outcomes there are significantly less random.

Start with https://www.gov.uk/appeal-benefit-decision/submit-appeal and at this stage don’t worry what happens three steps down the line. 

The advice above from @chiarieds is the most important thing you need to focus on. 

Sit down and write two detailed examples of what happened the last two times you attempted to perform each of the activities you think you score points on. Don’t talk in general terms. Get down to specific incidents. Saying I can’t do x because it causes y won’t cut it. Given an example of what specifically happened the last two times you attempted x. Do that for each of your points scoring activities and that’s your appeal written. Add in no more than a couple of really obvious things the HCP got wrong and you’re done. 

I’m obviously playing devils advocate here but talk to other people who know you if you can’t think of examples. Sometimes it’s hard but then the floodgates open. In all honesty, and again “devils advocate”, if you can’t find two per activity you’re probably struggling to find more points. 

Once the appeal is lodged there is always a further review but those also rarely revise the decision. On most appeals there’s scant evidence of one having even taken place so, again, don’t pin your hopes on a magic bullet. Build a case. DWP get 90 days to put an appeal bundle together but routinely sail past that. In the current lockdown that’s more likely. Rather than get worked up about that or other delays use your time wisely. Get representation from a local advice agency and build your case.

By representation I don’t mean someone who will write what purports to be a written submission but will then leave you to it on the day. I mean someone who will actually represent you at the hearing. 

Of course Sod’s law says that having written then all that a caseworker will now give you what you want. One can only hope. In most instances though you’re heading off to appeal.

Lou67

Hi @kali110. Hi sorry to hear you didn’t get the points you think you should have, I’m in a very similar place as yourself, I was getting standard DL for a cpl year it finished in February, I found out on 17th April I was awarded only 6 points for DL and 10 for Mobility so I’m receiving same as yourself, I’m still waiting on word back on my MR but got a feeling I will be going to appeal. Sorry for the rant lol stick with it Kali 😊

kali110

Thanks @Lou67, I have put forward my appeal, just waiting to see if DWP will change anything, its a long waiting game but should hopefully be worth it. Nervous at the same time. I dont my appeal online but still need to send them the MR letter.

Let me know how you get on. 

Best wishes.

kali110

@mikehughescq

thank you so much for your advice, I followed your guideline and submitted an appeal, just need to send my MR letter to the tribunal. 

Really anxious but should hopefully be worth it all. DWP have until mid June to look over it again before it goes to appeal.

Lou67

Hi Kali, yeah defo worth it just a shame we have to go through this to get what we should be getting, I wasn’t aware you could put in for them to look again at your MR if first one is disallowed, so thanks for making that known, I will definitely keep you informed. 

kali110

@mikehughescq I have submitted an appeal to the tribunal just waiting fot PIP to respond, they are over the timescale now as you had mentioned, but I am really unsure of who to use as a representative, it is giving me the option to use Glasgow City council would you have any advice whether this will help me as I dont really know who else can represent me.Also do you think I should get written letters from family and friends as I seen this as an option too. Really anxious of what is going to happen next. Since then I have submitted 2 occupational health reposts and a occupationa senior doctors note too who have highlighted how unwell i am.

Just waiting for someone from PIP appeals to respond but i know its unlikely they will change anything so its a matter of waiting on tribunal which will be a while i take it. 

mikehughescq

32 to 38 weeks is the wait for an appeal lodged now. However, probably less as most are being dealt with on the papers. It’s not appropriate for me to recommend a rep. I suggest you talk to them and make a judgement based on how you feel after that. 

In terms of prepping your case, go back to my previous post and concentrate on the but below the bold text.

kali110

mikehughescq said:

32 to 38 weeks is the wait for an appeal lodged now. However, probably less as most are being dealt with on the papers. It’s not appropriate for me to recommend a rep. I suggest you talk to them and make a judgement based on how you feel after that. 

In terms of prepping your case, go back to my previous post and concentrate on the but below the bold text.

I had my pip tribunal today, was super anxious, although i had provided alot of medical evidence to DWP and Tribunal, OH reports, Podiatrist letters and so on, the judge came on the phone and didn't discuss anything at all and just sad they want my medical records. I was upset and even said to the judge I have provided a written letter from my GP which states all my problems and symptoms already though, and alot of other evidence yet still they insisted for the medical records.

I am happy to provide medical records as I got them from the doctor in March 2020, however I was told its not necessary to send them unless asked for. Obviously now i will be sending them to the tribunal, but just feel like its a waste of time and they had enough evidence and reports to make a decision. I am already getting standard Mobility but challenging for enhance mobility and some daily living too. Even my rep was surprised at the outcome as it just wasn't expected at all. 

Is their any advice you can give, my only worry is my medical records wont state everything and are basic not so much detailed. However Tribunal does have other medical letter and reports already. 

I am scared of the outcome as well as the delay, what is the likelihood of them asking for my medical records I don't understand and if needed i wish they asked before my hearing.

Any advice will be appreciated on what they will do next and any help for me just now too. 

poppy123456

Hi,

Sounds like there wasn't enough of evidence to make a decision which is why they are asking for your medical records, which does sometimes happen.

Even though you said you sent medical evidence, did that evidence sctually state exactly how your conditions affect you because most medical evidence doesn't state this.

Letters from GPs aren't the best evidence to send either because they very rarely know exactly how your conditions affect you. They will only usually know if you've told them.

Hopefully you're not waiting too much longer for another date.

kali110

Yes my reports were very detailed, and a few pages long too, each mentioned my mobility and daily living needs with detail and the difficulties I face, even my rep agreed that it was a great amount of evidence they had if they had wished to use.

Just left me upset and I even cried on the phone to the judge as I felt it was a great let down and that it affecting my mental health. 

poppy123456

I note that you also have a rep so you should really be speaking to them about any questions they have, They will know everything about your case. It's difficult to give any advice without knowing anything about your case. There could be many reasons why the Tribunal have requested medical evidence.

mikehughescq

A few thoughts. Nothing stunningly original. I’ve posted similar in the past but this sort of thing keeps coming up.

1 - you have a representative. Nothing could be less helpful to them than coming on a forum seeking advice from lay people. Your rep is there to answer all your questions. It makes their job much harder if you don’t ask them those questions but then accept what you’re being told elsewhere. None of us here can represent you. You have someone who can. It’s what they’re paid for so use them.

2 - no-one can stop someone with a rep from coming on multiple forums and seeking advice. Most of us can understand the impulse and enjoy the sense of community but just because you can doesn’t mean you should.