PIP, DLA and AA
If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

Urgent Help Required!

Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
edited June 2020 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi all you lovely folks. Just joined today after reading great comments about this forum, so hopefully you can help. My sons has severe learning difficulties and was placed in a special unit at school. he had Autism and ADHD, the list is endless. he’s on enhanced rate and low rate mobility. he’s just found a cleaning job 2 days a week and is too scared to do it as they might take it off him? before someone says you can work and still get high rate because working or not .... but planning and following a journey is where he scored most of his points? so he’s worried about taking the job now. anyway advice would be marvellous as I’m a single mum and can’t find the information I need. Regards Sandra 

Replies

  • Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    edited May 2020
    Hi Folks. I’m new here, I’ve posted my story on PIP category can anyone answer it please. new on here, so still getting use to it. 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 8,100 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Sandra_63 - Welcome to the community. You can work & claim PIP, tho you do have to be careful that any work you might do may contradict what has been written in a PIP claim. Perhaps the following government guidance may help: https://www.gov.uk/pip/eligibility
    I would also be happy to also ask a member of the Scope team to look at this tomorrow for you. :)


  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,268 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi, I don't think there is a simple answer unfortunately, really depends on each individual case.  As above it depends if the work contradicts where he scored the points.  

    I'm in the same position though, scared to try any sort of work due to the PIP and ESA.
  • Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    @chiarieds tbh I don’t even have to declare to PIP that I’m working anyway so wouldn’t have to mention it. as on the PIP website it doesn’t say you have to declare if your working or not. I spoken to PIP today and the lady said the only change you need to make is change of bank details / address , or if your condition has got better or worse. it’s not a legal requirement to notify them if your working or not on PIP. other benefits you have to declare it by law but not PIP. 
  • Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    @OverlyAnxious he’s not required by law to notify the DWP PIP if he starts work anyway. as it’s not a legal requirement to notify them of that change. the only thing you need to notify them is change of bank details address or if your condition has got worse ect ect. but on the PIP website it says you don’t have to notify us if your working or not as you are allowed to by law. so couldn’t careless. just won’t notify them! as other benefits you have to but not on PIP you don’t. 
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,268 Disability Gamechanger
    You don't have to tell them about extra income because PIP isn't means tested.  

    The problem here is if someone reports him and he gets investigated for benefit fraud.  For example, if the PIP decision form says he can't mix with people under any circumstances...and is then seen working in a busy supermarket, that would obviously contradict the claim.  I'm not sure where he scored the points, so can't say whether a cleaning job might contradict or not. :)
  • PlainSailingPlainSailing Member Posts: 5 Connected
    It all depends on what he gets the points for.  You should have a letter telling you exactly what points he has - I would be happy to talk to you if you have that list of points
  • LauraR_ScopeLauraR_Scope Scope Posts: 14 Connected
    Hi @Sandra_63

    I hope your well and finding your way around the community okay. 

    Has your questions about PIP been answered? If not you may find our Scope helpline useful, their number is 0808 800 3333.

    Hope this helps :)
    Activities for All coordinator 
    Scope
  • CarolAnn1953CarolAnn1953 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    I scored  9 points in total
  • PlainSailingPlainSailing Member Posts: 5 Connected
    But what were the points for?
  • CarolAnn1953CarolAnn1953 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    Moving around 10
    Aid to prepare meal 2
    Washing and  bath 3
    Assistance to get in Bath or shower 3
    Managing toilet etc 2
    Dressing 2 
    The rest was all 0

  • CarolAnn1953CarolAnn1953 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    I was sat the whole time she didn't see how unsteady I was 
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,268 Disability Gamechanger
    Two threads have got crossed here so there's a bit of confusion.  Hopefully the mods can separate them again. :)
  • Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    @OverlyAnxious it’s not benefit fraud as he’s gained most of his points for reading / signs. medication , bathing so none of that constitutes as benefit fraud. if he gained most of his points for mixing with others and is working in a busy environment that constitutes as benefit fraud, but with his descriptors there not affecting his entitlement to PIP. I appreciate your advice though! all I am saying as it’s not means tested you don’t have to report your working full stop when your on PIP. unless your condition has got better and your score shouldn’t be as high as it is. 
  • Sandra_63Sandra_63 Member Posts: 13 Listener
    @PlainSailing bathroom , reading writing. medication , that’s where he’s gained all his points from. so he’s fine anyway. also he doesn’t even have to notify PIP even if he does start work as it’s not a legal requirement to do so regardless. the only time you need to is change of personal circumstances address , bank details ect ect. so it’s all good! it even says on the website you don’t have to notify DWP your working as it’s not means tested anyway.
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 8,100 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Sandra_63 - I'm sorry I don't feel I can help you further, but, as I offered, I could ask a member of the Scope team to advise, or as LauraR_Scope mentioned, you could ring Scope's helpline.
    You said your query was about your son, then you replied to me as if it was about yourself. You initially said your son gained most points for 'planning & following a journey,' now you say it's for 'bathroom, reading, writing & medication, that's where he's gained all his points.' It all becomes a bit confusing as to what, & who, you mean.
    Neither @OverlyAnxious nor I said that you had to inform PIP about any work. You asked for advice, which we both gave; sorry you weren't happy with it. Here on Scope we help & support each other, as we try to do with new members.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    Good grief. Pardon my bluntness but talk about making a really simple issue complex.

    1 - he’s planning on working 2 days a week and gets PIP mobility at standard rate. That means he can only have scored either 
    c. Cannot plan the route of a journey.  8 points 

    or

    d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.  10 points.

    In order to get that award he needed to have satisfied the 50% rule ie

    1. where one descriptor is satisfied on over 50 per cent of the days of the required period,
    Now, just at the most simple level how does working 2 days out of 7 or even 5 suggest he no longer meets the 50% rule? The answer of course is that it doesn’t. 

    How would it impact 1c? Well of course it most likely doesn’t because that’s solely about planning a route and not about doing it. Provided he needed assistance to plan the journey then nothing is impacted. Given that he has autism and ADHD it seems highly likely he’ll need support to plan the journey. 

    How would 1d be impacted? Again, it likely wouldn’t. The journey to work is only going to be unfamiliar once. Even if he could make an unfamiliar journey once that didn’t mean he can do it reliably and doing it reliably, rather than doing it once, is the test.

    He’s likely going to have to rehearse the journey and once done it’s a familiar journey. As he may have scored his mobility points for unfamiliar routes then doing a familiar journey is irrelevant. 

    It’s that simple. It might be more complex if the cleaning job was at more than one location each day but that’s not likely for someone with autism. I’ll happily be corrected on that. 

    So, @Sandra_63 subject to the caveats detailed above, I see little reason to be concerned. That doesn’t mean you’ll be able to calm his anxiety but you can at least explain why he should be minimally concerned.

    Now, let’s deal with the other points.


    The problem here is if someone reports him and he gets investigated for benefit fraud.  For example, if the PIP decision form says he can't mix with people under any circumstances...and is then seen working in a busy supermarket, that would obviously contradict the claim.  I'm not sure where he scored the points, so can't say whether a cleaning job might contradict or not. :)
    Nothing to worry about here very much. Anyone can be reported for fraud no matter what they’re doing. The only people who need fear that are... people committing fraud! There is no fraud here. At worst there would be an arguably recoverable overpayment for a failure to disclose or misrepresentation. As has already been semi-accurately states you do not ordinarily need to declare employment to PIP so failure to disclose would be unlikely to be relevant. If the work didn’t have to be declared then there can’t possibly be a misrepresentation as there was no obligation to represent anything in the first place!

    To clarify, some work must be declared to PIP where, for example, it could reasonably be considered to bring entitlement into question. I don’t see a 2 day cleaning job as being likely to do that at all bevy’s if the 2 things I laid out at the start. 

    Equally, working in a supermarket does not “obviously contradict” points for social engagement. Being able to talk to strangers momentarily in a social situation is absolutely not “socially engaging”. See https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

    No mention here of whether ESA is in payment. The potential impact on ESA is a far bigger issue but easily addressed with advice re: permitted work etc.
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 8,100 Disability Gamechanger
    Perhaps the OP made this complex. She asked about her son, then replied to me as if the PIP claim was about herself. Initially she stated her son gained most points for 'planning & following a journey,' then she said, ' it's for 'bathroom, reading, writing & medication, that's where he's gained all his points.' It may depend on what she means, & about whom, but there was more than a little ambiguity here. Very difficult to advise when the goalposts keep moving.
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,268 Disability Gamechanger


    The problem here is if someone reports him and he gets investigated for benefit fraud.  For example, if the PIP decision form says he can't mix with people under any circumstances...and is then seen working in a busy supermarket, that would obviously contradict the claim.  I'm not sure where he scored the points, so can't say whether a cleaning job might contradict or not. :)
    Nothing to worry about here very much. Anyone can be reported for fraud no matter what they’re doing. The only people who need fear that are... people committing fraud! There is no fraud here. At worst there would be an arguably recoverable overpayment for a failure to disclose or misrepresentation. As has already been semi-accurately states you do not ordinarily need to declare employment to PIP so failure to disclose would be unlikely to be relevant. If the work didn’t have to be declared then there can’t possibly be a misrepresentation as there was no obligation to represent anything in the first place!

    To clarify, some work must be declared to PIP where, for example, it could reasonably be considered to bring entitlement into question. I don’t see a 2 day cleaning job as being likely to do that at all bevy’s if the 2 things I laid out at the start. 

    Equally, working in a supermarket does not “obviously contradict” points for social engagement. Being able to talk to strangers momentarily in a social situation is absolutely not “socially engaging”. See https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

    No mention here of whether ESA is in payment. The potential impact on ESA is a far bigger issue but easily addressed with advice re: permitted work etc.
    I don't completely agree with your first point there - it doesnt necessarily matter whether you're doing anything wrong or not, what matters is whether other people think you are!  I've found myself in the wrong place at the wrong time many times in the past and having to try and explain what were actually completely innocent & genuine circumstances.  Not benefit related admittedly, but it's very much a case of once bitten, twice shy for me now.  It also seems the general idea after a fraud suspicion is to stop money and then investigate - causing a lot of unnecessary stress & hassle to the claimant, plus all the financial implications that come with that.  I do appreciate the point that legally it's not classed as misrepresentation though.

    This is an area I'm very interested in, so do appreciate your experience here.  I scored 9D, which was a complete shock to me tbh - I do have significant social difficulties, but am able to shop at a supermarket once a week at a quiet time - surely that doesnt constitute OPD from any social engagement?  While I'm glad of the award (I wouldn't have had enough points from other areas), I'm now worried about being seen in any social place now, but maybe I'm still misunderstanding the descriptor.  I also used to visit the odd car show for example (obviously not this year lol!) but worried that could be seen as a contradiction.  Back on the subject of work, I was also aiming to do something eventually as I hate being stuck on benefits but will never be able to do a normal 9-5...so looking at something like gardening or window cleaning for example.  Very low social contact needed but still some...so doesnt that contradict 9D?  As I say, I'm very interested in your experince, not just trying be awkward! 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2020

    I don't completely agree with your first point there - it doesnt necessarily matter whether you're doing anything wrong or not, what matters is whether other people think you are!  I've found myself in the wrong place at the wrong time many times in the past and having to try and explain what were actually completely innocent & genuine circumstances.  Not benefit related admittedly, but it's very much a case of once bitten, twice shy for me now.  It also seems the general idea after a fraud suspicion is to stop money and then investigate - causing a lot of unnecessary stress & hassle to the claimant, plus all the financial implications that come with that.  I do appreciate the point that legally it's not classed as misrepresentation though.

    This is an area I'm very interested in, so do appreciate your experience here.  I scored 9D, which was a complete shock to me tbh - I do have significant social difficulties, but am able to shop at a supermarket once a week at a quiet time - surely that doesnt constitute OPD from any social engagement?  While I'm glad of the award (I wouldn't have had enough points from other areas), I'm now worried about being seen in any social place now, but maybe I'm still misunderstanding the descriptor.  I also used to visit the odd car show for example (obviously not this year lol!) but worried that could be seen as a contradiction.  Back on the subject of work, I was also aiming to do something eventually as I hate being stuck on benefits but will never be able to do a normal 9-5...so looking at something like gardening or window cleaning for example.  Very low social contact needed but still some...so doesnt that contradict 9D?  As I say, I'm very interested in your experince, not just trying be awkward! 
    You are of course welcome to disagree but that wasn’t quite my point. My point was very much that you can’t live your life based on what other people might do or think and you have no control over it so logically the only time to be fearful is if you have actually committed a fraud. Most paranoia about fraud is fuelled by lack of knowledge both on the part of the accuser but also the accused. 

    In this thread for example the son of the OP has little to be concerned about provided their ESA position is clear but their health won’t necessarily let them see it that way. However, they will clearly be better off to some degree at least knowing their PIP is unlikely to be threatened. 

    Would that stop someone reporting them? No, of course not, but you can’t legislate for stuff like that. It’s a choice. Worry about things you can’t control or... don’t.

    Your supermarket example was borne of ignorance (pardon my being so blunt) about what the PIP descriptor in question actually says. That in turn feeds into your question. I posted a link to some of the case law on social engagement. There’s a great phrase in  there which sums up what social engagement is actually about. 

    It’s not about what’s described as a “mere reciprocation of exchanges”. It’s about forming relationships. Being able to go to a supermarket and ask for food at the deli or indulge in a quick chat with the lad on the till is just an exchange, it’s not social engagement because it’s not forming a relationship. That simple really. It’s why there’s great case law about going to the pub not automatically leading to the conclusion someone can socially engage. Asking for a pint and sitting with a group you have known for years is no evidence at all of currently being able to form relationships.

    So, whilst I’ve no way to say whether your award of 9d is correct, none of what you’re suggesting would automatically cause an issue under 9d.

    Hope that helps.
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,268 Disability Gamechanger

    Your supermarket example was borne of ignorance (pardon my being so blunt) about what the PIP descriptor in question actually says. That in turn feeds into your question. I posted a link to some of the case law on social engagement. There’s a great phrase in  there which sums up what social engagement is actually about. 

    It’s not about what’s described as a “mere reciprocation of exchanges”. It’s about forming relationships. Being able to go to a supermarket and ask for food at the deli or indulge in a quick chat with the lad on the till is just an exchange, it’s not social engagement because it’s not forming a relationship. That simple really. It’s why there’s great case law about going to the pub not automatically leading to the conclusion someone can socially engage. Asking for a pint and sitting with a group you have known for years is no evidence at all of currently being able to form relationships.

    So, whilst I’ve no way to say whether your award of 9d is correct, none of what you’re suggesting would automatically cause an issue under 9d.

    Hope that helps.
    Thanks, that definitely does help.  I had misunderstood the descriptor as you suggest!  

    I'll try and worry about it a bit less if I can get to the odd social event once lockdown is lifted. 
Sign in or join us to comment.