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tribunal help

mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
edited April 24 in PIP, DLA and AA
hi i have been reading a few people journeys on here and now decide for advise for my wife who i have cared for 15 years shes was on the old system for 10 years high on both parts for life but got letter 5 years ago to move pip got both high on mobility and care someone reported her 2018 and in july 2019 we had fraud squad follow us for 3 weeks out of the 3 weeks they seen us 9 days my wife got a letter to attend a interview what evidence they are using against her is getting in and out of a mobility car , standing on a kerb , pushing a small trolly instead of using her stick and crossing a road with out a stick once and they contacted mobility to see what cars she has had an he said in the interview that she drive really good for being on mobility . so the report come bk in nov 2019 so say she score 0 points on everything and pip wanted 31k money bk for 5 years they send it to the cps the case got dropped no further action the problems my wife has is rheumatoid arthritis dybetes  she cant dress shower or cook with out my help some days bed bound with flairs up we did a MR come bk same 0 points so we went to CAB in feb 2020 showed them all the reports he helped us start a tribunal process and said he would come to the trbunal for support and help us with the appeal for 31k they dropped the case in april 2020 and CAB said if they drop the money case then it will help in the tribunral we have kept all papers and dr speclist letter and we have sent in photos on all the aids my wife uses walk in shower sticks perching stool etc so what i am asking is anything else i can do and will the tribunal be asking diff qwestions compares to someone that had to go to a tribunral with a fresh claim sorry being soo long and no date for tribunal 
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Replies

  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    she did apply again with a fresh claim for pip in january 2020 while waiting for appeal she got dianosed with fibromyalgia, incondinence , rainards in 2019 as well as her other problem preview she didnt have a home visit with covid 19 she scored 0 everything they said nothng has changed since when she first applyed for pip 5 years ago so we didnt do a appeal as we already had 1 going

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 9,104 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi and welcome to the community, what an ordeal you and your wife have been through.

    We have lots of advice on PIP tribunals and also lots of members experience too in the PIP section

    The main focus should be giving examples of how your wife is affected against the descriptors, what happens when she tries to do the task, can she do it of not why not, can it be done safely and repeatedly, does she need help or use aids to do the tasks.

    They will only look at her condition at the time she was assessed and no worsening of condition since then as that is the decision she is appealing.

    Appearing in person or on the phone will also be advisable

    A tribunal is looking at the whole claim with fresh eyes from an independent panel

    Have a look around and hope you get some more tips
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    thank you @janer1967 its been a long hard worrying time still don't understand is if the case has been closed and know further action to be taken then why my wife hasn't got her pip back and would it help my wife case with the tribunal with the letter stating case closed as evidence .  i no not worth asking about how long waiting times are by the forum lol
     
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 9,104 Disability Gamechanger
    She hasn't got PIP back as last she doesn't have any award in place assessments all gave 0 points 
    The case that was closed is just in relation to the money they have not tried to take back 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2020
    Hmm, did you see any physical evidence that the case actually went to CPS or was it DWP referring it upwards to look at the possibility of prosecution, which is not the same thing at all.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    Sorry @mikehughescq kinda not sure what mean by physical evidence the letter my wife got bk was cps has investigated The evidence and know further action taken the case has been closed it does have the dwp on the letter
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    When dwp were send letters asking for a payment plan I told my wife To ring them and say we are appealing it I thought was if she excepted that payment plan then she’s excepting that she guilty of the evidence so we went to cab nxt day 1 of my question was to cab if the case drops for the money will that help tribunal he said yes there trying to claim 5 years worth of money bk with 9 days out 3 weeks of evidence cab said they don’t have 5 years of evidence this why I wonder will this letter help with my wife tribunal case 
  • pierce202pierce202 Member Posts: 7 Listener
    that is terrible what u have been through,im reaplying for my sons renewal and am worrrying as last time it took us a yr of court 2 tribunals which we won but the stress was horendous as we were in the middle of diagnosis and getting plans in place at the same time, now 3 yrs on he is on meds for adhd and meletonin at nite also has now ehcp plan and risk assesment reports and therapys reports ect been excluded twice so has behavior reports but the form is so intense and not clear on some parts 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @pierce202 I 100% agree the stress and worry never felt like before finding scope and reading people story’s and advise they give has helped so much when my wife went from the old system to pip she got awarded it for 10 years the accessor who come to the house could see the pain and struggle she was in
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    mark1983 said:
    Sorry @mikehughescq kinda not sure what mean by physical evidence the letter my wife got bk was cps has investigated The evidence and know further action taken the case has been closed it does have the dwp on the letter
    What I’m getting at is did you ever have any direct contact with CPS e.g. phone calls or letters from them or was it just DWP telling you CPS weren’t pursuing it?
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    Hi @mikehughescq it was dwp pursuing it and the letter we got bk to say the case was closed is from dwp has there stamp on top right of letter stating in capital letters we have closed are investigation then it says on 21 August 2019 you were interviewed under caution about a failure to declare a change in circumstances having considered the i information we have decided to close out investigations no further action will be taken an then further yours sincerely the name 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    So it will be no we have had no contact from cps letters or phone calls
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2020
    Okay, so the reason I was asking that question is that you’ve been duped by DWP here. It’s not uncommon and I’ve no hesitation in calling it intimidation as that’s what it is. In essence someone reports your wife; DWP video her and start an investigation. They suggest there’s a possibility of fraud and thus they will refer it upwards. In some cases they suggest that if you end the claim and agree to pay the money back with an administrative penalty added to it then the matter will go no further. 

    In most cases the matter will never go any further. It’s just an empty threat to get you to pay up. You’ll note that the CPS were never involved. If the CPS were involved you would know about it immediately; would have correspondence to say so and would be formally interviewed under caution by more people than the DWP. 

    In your case it sounds like they reviewed the evidence; decided there was enough in the video evidence to end the award without waiting for you to do so and then... well you tell me. My guess is that as above they said that the fraud threat would go away if you would just accept paying back the overpayment and an admin penalty. 

    You have done absolutely the right thing my going to Citizens Advice and I’m glad they’re challenging this for you. However, this is the sort of case which needs a representative who will turn up on the day of the hearing and actually represent on the legal argument face to face rather than just put something in writing in advance and leave you to it so you need to make sure that your rep will do this and, if not, insist they obtain someone who can. 

    To answer your original question, winning your overpayment appeal ought not to have any influence over whether your wife is now entitled to PIP but you need the o/p appeal to be decided before your new claim appeal. This is because if you win the overpayment appeal then of course the PIP overpayment will not be recoverable and the decision to end PIP will have been incorrect. If that PIP award was reinstated then the question then arises as to how long that original award was for. Would it have stopped by now? Lots of things to be sorted but essentially, without telling your CA rep what do, I would want to be reassured that they had requested a direction from a HMCTS judge that the second appeal cannot be heard before the first. 

    The most likely outcome of that of course is that they will hear them together on the same day. Overpayment first. New claim second. That’s fine but you need to be sure that it does not happen the other way round.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @mikehughescq ty mike u are a legend with help and information U give and when we went to the cab he ticked the box for a face to face for tribunal and said he wants to attend the tribunal with us as support/help
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Excellent. Just make sure the overpayment one comes before the entitlement one. 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @mikehughescq to do that does my wife have to wait for a tribunal date and then ring them to say she wants the overpayment first or can she write  a letter to them to tribunal 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    No, that needs to be done by your rep now if it hasn’t already happened. 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @mikehughescq thank you i know the dwp had till the 27 march to hand in there evidence to the tribunal but never heard anything bk my wife gets txts on phone with updates the only txt she had is to say they got the info that we want a tribunal that we filled in with cab
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    and letter thu post to say if we want to add more evidence with code number for the case

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Up to your rep to be proactive and up to you to work with your rep. Really they should have answers to all your questions. The 27th of March date was just the time by which DWP have to put together an appeal bundle. There’s no sanction if they don’t and sometimes that extra delay can be handy in terms of piecing together a case. 

    However, a couple of things to note. The burden of proof on an overpayment case fails on DWP. They’re the party who changed the PIP award and decided there was a recoverable overpayment so they’re the party who needs to prove the case i.e. they need to show its recoverable rather than you having to show it’s not. That matters because if there are still no appeal papers for the overpayment appeal your rep can ask for DWP to be directed to produce them by date x and then, if they don’t, the appeal can be directed to go ahead without the bundle. Very hard for DWP to prove recoverability if there is no evidence in front of the tribunal!
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    today my wife recived a letter from the tribunral saying dwp asked for a extension and they gave them till 3rd of oct to hand the evidence in i was wondering if this is normal for them to ask for a extension 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 9,104 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes it isnt unheard of especially with all the back logs currently 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    You have rep. These are questions for your rep. 

    It’s nothing to do with backlogs. It’s been the norm for decades. You have some interesting options available re: directions from a judge but that’s a dyscyssuin with your rep.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    thank you for the info

  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi everyone just a update my wife got letter today from tribunal saying dwp did not send in any evidence after asking for a extension which has gone and said they can't except any from them now and the tribunal have asked for the evidence we have got we are contacting citzen advise tomoz so we get all the right info they asking for as we only have 3 weeks to send it by i was wondering does it help the case that dwp didnt send any evidence in 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    This happens a lot and they will mostly likely send it at some point. It doesn't make any difference to your case and the hearing will just carry on as normal.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi @poppy123456 hope u having a good day it states in the letter that the tribural won't except the evidence of the dwp now as they asked for a extension and still did not hand any in so they are asking all what my wife has on the case
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    just update on case spoke to cab/rep about the tribunal saying hand in evidence with in 3 weeks and i emailed cab the letter that says case was closed no further action from the 4 march and that dwp did not hand any evidence even asking for a extension and that the tribunal will now refuse any evidence from dwp now and cab told me to not send no medical records no evidence just wait for the tribunal to give us a date of hearing to he said they usually will give us 2 weeks notice and then to send in the letter that states case is closed and the original pip points letter that my wife got awarded with a statement stating kinda in words of the case should be throw out as dwp have sent no evidence and the letter in front states they closed the case in march hoping it will go this way at the tribunal
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    have a qwestion if any 1 could help the dwp asked the tribunal for a extension to hand evidence in the tribunal gave them till 3rd oct they still handed nothing in last week we had 2 letters from the tribunal 1 saying that the receivd the evidence that we added to my wife case and the other letter stating what has happen that dwp didnt send any evidence in and it has expired so i contacted cab/rep read him the letter he said that dwp cant send in evidence now as time as expired from the tribunal so today 7 nov i got thu post 350 page from dwp the evedence they have sent to the tribunal will the tribunal except it and can i fight for it to be removed as time expired cant talk to my rep/cab till tuesday as working from home sorry for being so long

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I believe they can still send the evidence, they are mostly always late even with being given extra time. It sounds like you received the "bundle" is that correct?

    Not sure what you mean by "can you fight for it to be removed?" fight for what? The most important thing is that you concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi @poppy123456 yeah the bundle was from dwp and what i mean fight the tribunal said in the letter they gave my wife is that the time dwp to hand eveidence in has expired so anything that they send in must be invalid to my wife case 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    just so confuse becouse CAB even told us when we read the letter from the tribunal saying that dwp time to hand evidence has expired he told us that the tribunal can't except it with the time being expired
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Are you 100% sure that's exactly what they said to you? DWP are very often late sending their evidence but usually it makes no difference, it's accepted. Regardless, you shouldn't be concentrating on that because this is not going to give you a PIP award.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    yes after each coverstation we have with CAB he writes up as a statement plus we have a tribunal letter that states this and i read word to word the letter to CAB he agreed there time has expired and the tribunal shouldnt allow the evidence and cab told us to keep are evidence simple the evidence cab told us to send is the letter we got from dwp bk in march to say case was closed no further action taken against my wife the orginal pip letter that she was awarded with all her points and assesor home visit statement and a statement from my wife stateing dwp have sent in no eveidence and the letter from dwp states case closed in march few other things and on the end saying she bellieve the case should be thu out 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @poppy123456 in away it does give my wife bk her pip as she was awarded for 10 years after 5 she got reported fraud sqaud followed her recorded 9 days out 3 weeks they then trying to claim 5 years of money 31 thousand wife gets letter saying from dwp case closed no further action so if the tribunal dont get dwp evidence then theres no case would have to award her it bk this why dwp eveidnece shouldnt be aloud if the time expired to hand it in even after the dwp ask for a extention and still didnt hand any in CAB tell us it cant be excepted soooo confused 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I've now read your original post above, which i should have done before commenting. I see now that your wifes PIP was/is under investigation which is the reason for the Tribunal. Based on this, i won't make any further comments because it's beyond my knowledge. As you have a rep then you should contact them and ask them any questions you have because they will know everything about your case, no one here knows anything about it.

    Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    I was just reading this what a ordeal you and your wife have been threw what a night mare . My god that sounds horrible so from watching your wife for 3 weeks there trying to say she’s well what a load of **** how can they make such judgments in 3 weeks . People have good and bad days . That sounds like a awful ordeal to go threw what a worry . Have they stopped your wife’s pip while this is going on ? And trying to say you owe 5 years worth of pip over 3 weeks of them watching you have I got this right ? What a huge stress to go threw . I can’t offer you any helpful advice just my support and I hope things work out for your wife and this is all sorted . 

    Surely they must get loads of fake call ins so many people out there reporting people just to be nasty . So while there looking into genuine  people all the fakers go under the radar . 
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    I find it hard taking in information at Times did you say the 31 k Case has been dropped ? And your just trying to fight for your wife’s pip or you still trying to appeal the 31 k ? What a stress for you both I really hope it goes ok 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi @cupcake88 yeah u have it right but out of the 3 weeks they only cought her 9 days and yeah my wife pip got stopped in 2019 august ty for you're kind words very stress full i wish this on no 1
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
     @cupcake88 we have 2 cases in 1 tribunal money and pip but on 4th march dwp sent us letter saying case cloesd no further action so we sent it as evidence to the tribunal with medical letters of gp and specalist pictures etc
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    My god how awful so they pretty much stoped her pip once she was looked into how awful they must get so many pranksters call up and report people why they stop people money over some silly report I have no idea people are jealous and bitter and make stuff up . My god 2019 she’s had no pip well I hope she gets her back pay soon and her pip awarded . 
    Please keep us updated I hope your wife is ok 
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    If she was reported to them in 2018 you would of thought they would of looked into it then and then either chucked it out or looked into it more why they wait till 2019 to stop her pip how awful I’m sorry she’s got threw this . 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Tribunal procedure rule 2b is little used and therefore largely unknown. However, it gives a judge the power to 

    “… exclude evidence that would otherwise be admissible where—
    (i) the evidence was not provided within the time allowed by a direction or a practice direction;
    (ii) the evidence was otherwise provided in a manner that did not comply with a direction or a practice direction; or
    (iii) it would otherwise be unfair to admit the evidence.”

    It’s mostly used to list appeals where the DWP fails after a very long time to produce any appeal bundle.

    In your case, extraordinarily (but amusingly) a very grumpy judge has given DWP a direction to get the appeal papers in by a date and they failed. So, they’ve excluded the papers. I think this is likely wrong. Appeal papers and especially the DWP submission element of that are explicitly defined as not being evidence in tribunal guidance (the Bench book) so they cannot be excluded. 

    On a more practical level I think the likely outcome here is that a clerk, having received the bundle and (most likely) blissfully unaware of the existence of the direction, will circulate the bundle to all parties and carry on as though there was no direction. What happens next will depend on whether the case has been reserved to the judge who made the direction or a different judge who may simply decide to carry on either way. 

    Ultimately it’s not going to matter. Appeal papers help frame an appeal but ultimately it will be decided by your evidence. 


  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    thank you @mikehughescq for the info my wife phone cab/rep waiting for him to ring bk this week to let him know. i was wondering when it come to the tribunal phone call (no date set yet) that my wife could bring it up about the late evidence an the letter the tribunal sent to my wife that dwp time has expired they can't execpt it or would that make her get on the wrong side of the panel.  
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Focus solely on those issues which will score points for PIP. The rest will be decided before the hearing and is of no relevance. 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi @mikehughescq just update cab/rep phone my wife today about the dwp bundle he was asking her to read a b c d e pages at start to see if there is apology letter from dwp to the tribunal which there isnt for late evidence an to ring him bk on tuesday so he will tell my wife how to write a letter to get dwp evidence thrown out and in the letter she sends my wife can refer to pages out of the dwp eveidence that the tribunal can look at only the pages she refer to nothing else. have u heard of many case thats late and has no apology letter from dwp but the tribunal still let evidence in 
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    I’m so sorry you have to go threw this I don’t understand why they would listen to some one reporting your wife they must get people telling lies on people all the time . 

    Did they decide to stop her pip after they were watching her ? Well clearly they was not watching good . 

    I really hope your wife gets her pip back how long was the award for was it a life time award? 

    I’m sorry you are going threw this 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @cupcake88 there's no such thing as a lifetime award for PIP. The maximum award length is 10 years with a light touch review.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @cupcake88 it was 10 year award the max u can get untill review like poppy says 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    it was the old system that u could get lifetime award my wife had that as well then pip took over
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    @mark1983
    oh right do you think that’s why they decided to randomly look Into her because she had a 10 year award ? Or because some one reported her ? 

    It sounds horrible and I’m sure you both could do with the money that has been paused looked forward to the back pay ? You will get back pay won’t you if you don’t will you just start a new award claim ?
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @cupcake88 yeah she was reported by someone and in the dwp bundle it states what the person put down for them to look into her it stated that my wife goes on holiday 3x a year ( i wish ) she had a brand new car every 3 years and my wife not disabled :( thats all it took for them to investigate
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @cupcake88as for money side yeah been a big stuggle they took my wife mobiliy car as well we don't have a bus service on are village nearest is 2 miles away so have to reply on freinds and family but me and my wife are kind people that dont like to ask just happy that we can do online food shopping we are hoping to win and i think it will get bk dated till august 2019 as far as i know thats when it got stopped

  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    They took her car as well what over some one saying she’s goes on holiday 3 times a year ? Did they take the car straight away ? Surely they would have to look into it before taking car and stopping benefit .

    you get people who do things like that to others it’s really not nice  . Didn’t you say some one reported her in 2018 and then it was stopped in 2019 so you would of thought they would of looked into it before stopping stuff and taking your car off you how awful is she still getting other benefits 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @cupcake88 no its always been 2019 as for the car if pip hasnt make a decision on what there going to do u can only keep the mobility for so long as pip stop paying mobility payment for the car cant remember how long we were aloud to keep it for so many weeks 
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    Sorry I thought you said you was reported in 2018 . 
    I’m sorry this has happened what a night mare for you both sorry I can’t respond with any helpful advise but I’m sorry this has happened to you and fingers crossed for you 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    I’m not sure there’s anything to add. You have a rep and need to work with them. If you want or prefer opinions on a forum then you presumably don’t want your rep. 

    My view remains that excluding papers which aren’t going to determine your appeal is focusing on the wrong thing. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger


    My view remains that excluding papers which aren’t going to determine your appeal is focusing on the wrong thing. 

    Which is exactly my thoughts too. I wasn't wrong with my advice either. Thanks mike for this and thanks again for all your advice here!
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    So people that have reps don’t need to come on this forum to hear others opinions that could shed extra light on it got it I won’t comment any further and remove myself from the forum 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Of course they can and they are welcome to do that but you have a rep for a reason and you should be asking them. They are the ones that know everything about your case. It's extremely difficult to give any advice when no one knows anything about your case and we could potentially give incorrect advice and i'm sure you wouldn't be happy if that happened.

    You are very lucky to have a rep, a lot of people aren't able to have one because there's no advice agency in their local area that have reps to represent them.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 873 Pioneering
    @mark1983 not ones saying to remove your self mark . Every one is trying to give you the best advice possible . But your rep will be the expert looking after your self and your wife .

    im glad you don’t have to pay back 5 years worth of money that’s one bonus , but i understand loosing your Wife’s mobility car and pip money would of been very hard on your self and your wife and I really hope it’s sorted . 

    Every one on here is nice and trying to help . 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Hmm, there is a phrase about walking a mile in the shoes of others. 

    You know there’s something wrong with the electrics in your house. You know nothing about electricity so you employ a qualified electrician. The electrician appears to be doing a decent job and, when you ask him about it, he’s happy to tell you what he can in layman’s terms. 

    Then you meet your mate. Your mate is not an electrician. He knows nothing about electricity but he does know that there’s a forum where people who also know nothing about electricity meet, and, he’s your mate. 

    The people who know nothing about electricity plant doubts. They have “suggestions”. Some of them are against the law and some of them are dangerous but, y’know, there’s a lot of them - wisdom of the crowd and all that - surely they must know “something”? 

    So, rather than trust the electrician, you trust the crowd and challenge the electrician? Why does he work so slowly? Why can’t he do x, y and z as suggested by the crowd? Does he really need a safety certificate when they’re so expensive? And so on... 

    The electrician is caught between a rock and a hard place. He can do the job professionally as it should be done and it costs what it costs. In doing so he knows that you his client will never be happy. It will have cost too much. It will have taken too long. The fact it was a professional job done in the correct way in a reasonable timescale simply won’t matter. The non-electricians have spoken. Who needs “experts” as a weasel faced politician might once have put it!

    If you have a rep then there should be no answer about your scenario which your rep can’t answer. That’s what they’re there for and it’s what they’d want to be there for. If you have a rep you have no need of the crowd. Their “opinion” is not an informed opinion. Their opinion makes the job of your rep near impossible. 

    If you seek an opinion here and someone happens to be a rep they would be completely unprofessional to comment on the work being done by a colleague and so they would not comment further. To do so would also make the job of your rep impossible. 

    So, you can of course do as you wish but who exactly is going to “shed extra light” here and on what exactly? The non reps won’t have the knowledge to be able to and the experts would be unprofessional to do so. It’s not clear why you think your rep can’t address any of this other than you don’t appear to have asked. 

    To rephrase the above sentence “people who have reps can go on any forum they like and ask any question they like but they won’t get any enlightenment until they remember they have a rep, whose expertise they most likely aren’t paying for, and go ask them”.


  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    just update been 19+ months my wife had letter asking for email details if we have internet access etc for a video call from the tribunal we have 14 days to reply we are phoning are rep today to get more advise to see if he can be on with us in the video call so we can add his details before letting the tribunal know been a long journey hopefully won't be long now
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 9,104 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks for the update let us know how it goes fingers crossed for you
  • QueenofdisabilitiesQueenofdisabilities Member Posts: 90 Connected
    You are allowed your rep in court it shouldn't be any different on a video call.
    I won my tribunal after a year of hell waiting for it.
    Fingers crossed for you let me know how it goes
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    i have spoke to citizen advice/rep and hes says they don't have the felicitys for a video call in there office plus he is working from home and office an is not aloud to do it from home said we are on are own for the video call to the tribunal , phoned tribunal to tell them details for the video call, really nice clerk they offer to send someone out to setup the video call if we having trouble now just waiting game 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 1,128 Pioneering
    mark1983 said:
    i have spoke to citizen advice/rep and hes says they don't have the felicitys for a video call in there office plus he is working from home and office an is not aloud to do it from home said we are on are own for the video call to the tribunal , phoned tribunal to tell them details for the video call, really nice clerk they offer to send someone out to setup the video call if we having trouble now just waiting game 
    I wonder if there's any mechanism for a rep to be involved by phone.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    edited March 25
    You are allowed your rep in court it shouldn't be any different on a video call.
    I won my tribunal after a year of hell waiting for it.
    Fingers crossed for you let me know how it goes
    A tribunal is not and never has been a court. Pre lockdown many were held in court rooms as that was fine north. They’re not courts though. mark1983 said:
    i have spoke to citizen advice/rep and hes says they don't have the felicitys for a video call in there office plus he is working from home and office an is not aloud to do it from home said we are on are own for the video call to the tribunal , phoned tribunal to tell them details for the video call, really nice clerk they offer to send someone out to setup the video call if we having trouble now just waiting game 
    If this were me I would be asking my rep which facilities they are missing. All that’s required is a laptop with a built in camera and a microphone. The video call runs in a browser so there’s certainly no issue there. Absent a laptop then that really complex facility their office appears to be missing is called... a smartphone. Given that CitA make great play of using things like WhatsApp it doesn’t strike me as especially credible that they’re lacking a smartphone!

    My exclusively personal view is that I think it remains the case that most CitA do not do representation on the day and have not done so for a long time. However, they like to present that they continue to do so even though it tends to end with a written submission. What they tend to do is present all manner of bizarre reasons why they can’t turn up on the day rather than say outright “we don’t do representation” as that would lead to some interesting questions politically.  

    As for the idea they couldn’t participate from home I think it would be interesting to establish the exact reason for that. As long as you’ve a smartphone, tablet, PC, a quiet place and a neutral background then you’re in business. There’s certainly no national policy on the point having asked around. I can see thatI said last August that you needed to ensured you had a CitA rep who would turn up on the day and now here we are. 

    Not sure I buy into the HMCTS offer to come out and help set things up either. The guidance suggests video hearings are only for those who request them and have the facility/ability. If the latter doesn’t apply then telephone hearing is the preferred option ahead of face to face. Video is absolutely not the default. There have been many reports that the guidance has been breached from day one. It also seems odd given that they stopped doing domiciliary hearings on the basis that they were too costly and required pre visits to do a H&S assessment. 
    calcotti said:
    I wonder if there's any mechanism for a rep to be involved by phone.
    Certainly is. Reps have been doing this nationally from within about a month of the first lock down. This is absolutely routine nationally. I’ve been doing telephone hearings from the study since March last year and as recently as two weeks ago. Clerk dials you into a routine conference call. I’ve been doing them via Cisco Jabber which is a hands free software phone so I can use my work machine to type notes whilst muted and participate as needed. In one case I also managed to use MS Teams to chat to the appellant all the way through the hearing much as we’d pass notes in a face to face hearing. 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 1,128 Pioneering
    calcotti said:I wonder if there's any mechanism for a rep to be involved by phone.
    Certainly is. Reps have been doing this nationally from within about a month of the first lock down. 
    I wasn't clear. I meant I wondered whether the rep could be on the phone only even if everybody’ else is on video.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, they would just come in on the Cloud Video Platform used by HMCTS and not have video on. It’s browser based so couldn’t be any more straightforward.
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 1,128 Pioneering
    Thanks, Mike. I suspected as much.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    hi my wife had a date for tribunal few days ago for 28th may says it a all day tribunal starts at 10-12:30 then dinner break start again 2pm is this normal for all day tribunal
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Day long. Lucky you.

    Yes the a.m. session always starts at 10 and the p.m. at 2. Very likely they’ll run to 1pm not 12:30 though.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    ty @mikehughescq for helping just going thu alot of stuff in life at min and i,m all over the place my dad suddenly passed away last thursday and trying to sort funeral and help my mam thu it she lives 6 hr drive away i had to come bk to check on letters and found the tribunal letter heading bk down again for the funeral monday i found you're thread u posted about tribunals that helps a lot .

    when u say lucky you are u saying that having a day long tribunal is good thing i seen most average are 40-hr long is it so they can cover all of the bundle or we have 2 cases into 1 case . thanks
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    If real life is getting on the way you can always ask for a postponement. Tribunals are generally 45 minutes so if you’ve been given all day for what sounds like 1 or 2 claims that have been linked then that’s usually because you have submitted an excess of evidence or are a persistent litigant. Less is more with all benefits but if you’re aircraft at the all day stage then there’s no rowing back on that. Definitely a scenario where a rep is needed.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    @mikehughescq yeah we did have a rep but got dropped at the end with cab saying they don't have falicitys for video call i got a weak excuse of why they don't.  but the rep has been a great help up to now he said keep the eveidence short and the best evidence that there is my wife on the day an dwp already contacted the gp and hospital specilist for there bundle side what i have read helps my wife case so there was no need to put that in from are end as evidence.  as for the 2nd claim about them claiming bk 5 years of money there is no eveidence we can put in to support it  and all dwp has put in is monthly pip statement being paid for 5 years 1 page for each month for 5 years which makes the bundle look big . 
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    my wife plan on the day is have a snack and drink ready on the day only answer when the judge asks a qwestion and not side track of the qwestion give couple of examples of what happens when she tries/can't do . and give a finshing statement at the end of the tribunal 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger

    You have done absolutely the right thing my going to Citizens Advice and I’m glad they’re challenging this for you. However, this is the sort of case which needs a representative who will turn up on the day of the hearing and actually represent on the legal argument face to face rather than just put something in writing in advance and leave you to it so you need to make sure that your rep will do this and, if not, insist they obtain someone who can. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,926 Disability Gamechanger
    Always good to read back over the thread. You’re on for a full day presumably because one appeal is overpayment and one is entitlement. Absolutely no way you should be going in without a rep.
  • mark1983mark1983 Member Posts: 44 Listener
    thanks @mikehughescq for the advice i will keep trying to get a rep that will help on the day the only other qwestion i have is
    is there any other advice u would give if i can't get 1 
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