PIP, DLA and AA
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What can I use as evidence for a PIP tribunal?

08herlilj08herlilj Member Posts: 13 Connected
Hello all. I'd like to start by saying that I applied for PiP due to anxiety, depression and joint hypermobility syndrome, had the face to face assessment decision back and the "evidence" provides no insight to my conditions. The medical professional hasn't included any info that I gave regarding pain, stress, dislocation, imbalance etc and I don't know if this is something I can challenge at a pip hearing. It's stated that I can do every activity, such as dressing, walking, traveling but it doesn't say how often I can do things, to what extent or standard. 

For evidence I have:
Multiple fitness for work notes from my GP.
Physiotherapy referral form.
Physiotherapy treatment record.
Rheumatology report.
History of medication (sertraline, propranolol, naproxen, zapain).
Referral to counselling form.
Notes from my first mental health assessor.
Universal credit journal entries of me being sleep deprived.
Images of my medication, walking stick and stool to use while cooking.

I can't really think of much else. I'm getting a doctor's written note soon hopefully detailing everything that I need. I have spoken to the EDS helpline and I'm unsure if I should add this to the list. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't always think about what a tribunal panel needs to see since my struggles have become the norm to me.


Replies

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi 

    Before tribunal  have you done the MR as this us first stage of appeal 

    They say less is more with evidence.  If it doesnt detail how your condition affects your daily living then it isnt with it 

    The best evidence is your own giving 2 real examples for each descriptor what happens when you try and do a task including doing it safely repeatedly and reliably 

    Some send in daily diary or supporting letter from those who see you daily and assist in your care 

    Any further questions just ask 
  • 08herlilj08herlilj Member Posts: 13 Connected
    Hello, I think I recognise your name from my last post @janer1967 I have, I've actually already had a tribunal hearing but due to admin error it was a hearing for ESA so I've requested the hearing to be set aside and another one booked. I think I have around 100 pieces of evidence but a lot of this is the garbage spewed from the FtF assessment. 

    A lot of my examples come from when I was working. I only had a 4 hour contract and I couldn't even handle that due to panic attacks, anxiety related nausea, collapse and many many mistakes. I'll type up some descriptor answer later, cheers for that bit of advice.

    I didn't consider using a diary, I have a few days logged into a small book I keep by me so I'll use that. Thanks again! (Apologies for not knowing how to reply correctly, I'm new to this)
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes I remember now your last post 

    You have replied correct dont worry 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,252 Pioneering
    08herlilj said: A lot of my examples come from when I was working. I only had a 4 hour contract and I couldn't even handle that due to panic attacks, anxiety related nausea, collapse and many many mistakes. I'll type up some descriptor answer later, cheers for that bit of advice.
    Remember that PIP is not about work. Although work place examples may be relevant it would be better, in my opinion, to give examples from outside work if possible.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    100 pieces of evidence is about 90 to 95 too many. None of the things you list are especially relevant to the key question of whether you can perform the points scoring activities reliably. This strikes me as an excellent opportunity to explain why to others as well as yourself so let’s take them in turn.

    - fit notes. Literally no relevance to PIP at all. You can get PIP and work for starters but also the fit note effectively says you’re unfit for your own occupation rather than all work and the only thing listed in a fit note is the name of the main disabling condition. If your diagnosis is in dispute then just telling them your diagnosis is no help. A for note saying depression or arthritis literally says nothing.
    - physio referral - not evidence of anything really. Nothing can be inferred either way. It could be the GP saying this person really needs physio or it could be the GP saying they’re fed up with you and did the referral to get you off their case. It can also be read as you needing a little physio and then you’ll be fine or your daily living needs will have reduced. In some circumstances such evidence can damage a case.
    - physio treatment record. Interesting but what does it actually say? Is there anything in there at all which would suggest you struggle with specific points scoring activities? Rarely the case.
    - rheumatology report. Will doubtless mention the diagnosis, treatment and prognosis. None of that is relevant if none of those things are in dispute, What explicitly does it say about your ability to perform specific points scoring activities?
    - history of meds. Often useful as it prevents the medical professional on the label concluding you have other options available when the record you tried those and they didn’t work. Apart from that? The meds you’re on are effectively voodoo. The levels arrived at are determined by what your body can tolerate as much as what it needs. Also doesn’t say anything about pain management. People with a high pain threshold might be on low meds and vice verse. Helps paints a picture but only a broad one.
    - referral to counselling. Of no relevance whatsoever. Doesn’t prove that you attended and there will be no mention of what subsequently happened i.e. did you cope better or worse? Were you so ill you failed to attend etc.
    - notes from first MHA. Depends on whether they cover the period of the claim and whether they link in anyway to the activities of daily living. 
    - UC journal record. Take your pick. Either you wrote in the journal and it proves nothing in isolating or they wrote it because you said it. Being blunt. So what? What matters is the impact of the sleep deprivation on your ability to reliably perform a points scoring activity. That differs from person to person. They can’t guess at it. You have to have spelt it out. 
    - images of your meds. Meaningless. I’ve never come across a case where the amount of medication was disputed. If you’ve already written down what you currently take then  that will be accepted unless your GP records say otherwise.
    - stool and stick. Possession of them doesn’t matter. The circumstances in which they came to be prescribed matters when deciding whether they are things you need. 

    Hopefully you get the gist. 100 pieces of evidence which endlessly repeat a diagnosis; endlessly repeat treatment regimes and prognosis. The evidence missing here is you. You are your own best evidence. Only you can provide evidence of how you struggle with each activity. You’re going to need two detailed examples per activity and I mean detailed. Do that and you’ll be fine. On the day the tribunal won’t be reviewing all your paperwork whilst they’re talking to you. They will want to hear from your and they will want you to direct your answers only to the points scoring activities. Not what you’ve got. Not how long you’ve had it. Not who you’ve seen. Not his high your meds doses are. You and your ability to do a points scoring activity reliably. 

    Under the circumstances I would strongly suggest you seek representation. Start with https://advicelocal.uk/. If you can’t get representation then read https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system and use it in tandem with https://pipinfo.net/ to get to grips with the basics of what it is you’re going for and thus what you need to show. 

    There are hundreds of threads on here where people swear blind they had tonnes of brilliant medical evidence and people like me get shouted down for asserting that it’s the anecdotal stories which will get you PIP. Little of your evidence above is likely to help your case. You now need to start thinking quickly of those real world examples and how they meet the criteria for PIP. Write them down. Have them with you on the day to act as a prompt.
  • 08herlilj08herlilj Member Posts: 13 Connected
    The evidence is mostly from the capability for work assessment, but I see what you're getting at too, considering less is more. Thank you for clearing this up too, this helps narrow down the papers that I can send off.

    I should have probably specified things. The fit notes are to challenge the "unfit for work" aspect of the DWP response and to show that my conditions are severe, but like you've indicated, these aren't detailing any problems specific to the descriptors. 

    My physio referral form only states that I have "recurrent back pain, radiating to hip, hypermobile joints, duration of symptoms since onset (6 months), recent investigation for a dislocated knee from getting out of bed. Hip and back most problematic. Not sure how bad things will get" Not sure what I can salvage from this and I'm struggling to read the handwriting under the problem list.

    If you hadn't have gone through this then I would have charged in blind so I really appreciate this, I'll get to writing some examples and hope I can be as detailed as I need to be. Thank you for taking the time, it's definitely pushed me in the right direction😁
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,252 Pioneering
    edited March 12
    08herlilj said:
    The evidence is mostly from the capability for work assessment, but I see what you're getting at too, considering less is more. Thank you for clearing this up too, this helps narrow down the papers that I can send off.

    I should have probably specified things. The fit notes are to challenge the "unfit for work" aspect of the DWP response and to show that my conditions are severe, but like you've indicated, these aren't detailing any problems specific to the descriptors. 
    PIP has nothing to do with work. Many people get PIP and also work. Equally many people have illnesses that limit their ability to work but would not qualify for PIP. PIP is solely about your ability to do the prescribed activities to the expected standard.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    You’d mentioned a focus on the WCA in another thread about this appeal. Physio report won’t be detrimental if that’s what it says but nor will it help either. It tells you where the pain is but offers precisely zero on how that impacts prepping food; bathing; dressing; toileting; budgeting etc. That’s where your examples come in.

    I’m not sure whether you’re actively resisting my comments re representation or think ot costs but really that’s what you need to be thinking of at this point. 
  • 08herlilj08herlilj Member Posts: 13 Connected
    @calcotti that makes sense. It has confused me for a while because I've had a work capability assessment and couldn't get PIP because of it, then I was told that the descriptors help highlight what you'd be able to transfer to a workplace environment. I've checked the descriptors and either way it seems like I should've had points whether I was in work at the time of the assessment or not.  

    @mikehughescq so in your opinion should I keep the physio report as evidence for refering to when I write about my descriptor answer examples? Also I've taken it into account, I'm just **** at communication. I have a citizens advice branch about 5 minutes from home as well.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Up to you re:the physio report. It’s unlikely that your pain or level of pain is in dispute though.
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