PIP, DLA and AA
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Pip new claim

poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
Hi there, I need help getting in and out of the bath. I also need help washing my neck to my lower back and my hair. I have hand grips on my bath. I also have a handheld shower attached to my taps. I’m a best saying I have these or not when filling out my claim form.

Replies

  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    edited March 23
    If you have aids that you need you should say so. PIP points are scored because of the difficulties you have and the help you need regardless of whether or not you get that help. If you have aids explain why you need them and how the aids help. 
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,534 Disability Gamechanger
    On each section it ask if you use aids e.g a walking stick etc that's where you explain what aids you have.
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi and welcome to the community 

    Normal advice us that if aids have been supplied from social services or as a result of a needs assessment then mention them 

    If you have just purchased them yourself they may not comply to standard and ir is up to you if they are mentioned 

    Hope your claim goes ok and if you need anymore help just ask 
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    No social services didn’t supply them. I just didn’t know if to include the aids on application, but say I need help from another person to help me in & out of bath, washing my neck & back to my waist & washing my hair. 
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    As it says 3 points in the dicriptor 4 help in & out of the bath. 4 points 4 help washing neck to waist, from another person
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    ponies said:
    As it says 3 points in the dicriptor 4 help in & out of the bath. 4 points 4 help washing neck to waist, from another person
    But you don't get both sets of points under one descriptor. You get the points that correspond to the highest descriptor applicable for that activity. So if you need help getting in and out of the bath and you need someone to help you wash your upper body the point score for the washing activity is 4 points.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,534 Disability Gamechanger
    It's likely that if you don't include them then when it comes to the assessment you will be asked if you use any aids

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/487374/pip-consultation-on-aids-and-appliances-easy-read.pdf
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    janer1967 said:
    Hi and welcome to the community 

    Normal advice us that if aids have been supplied from social services or as a result of a needs assessment then mention them 

    If you have just purchased them yourself they may not comply to standard and ir is up to you if they are mentioned 

    Hope your claim goes ok and if you need anymore help just ask 
    I can't see the argument for that. If somebody has aids which help them then explaining the difficulty and how they help has to be informative of the level of need regardless of whether the aids are supplied by social services, bought privately or just improvised in some way.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes certainly put in about other people helping you 

    It's up to you if you want to mention the aids as it is just my opinion 
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    I know you only get one score. Will you still get the points if you mention bath rails & shower head on taps. As well as needing help with personal care from another person
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    ponies said:
    I know you only get one score. Will you still get the points if you mention bath rails & shower head on taps. As well as needing help with personal care from another person
    Mention everything. The assessor will look at all the levels of need that may apply and the points awarded and award You will get the point score related to the highest scoring one. 
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    Thanks so much for all of your replies!
    ponies
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,222 Disability Gamechanger
    There are pros & cons to mentioning aids.....if you bought something yourself, it doesn't necessarily mean you needed it, rather may have might bought it regardless. Sometimes the use of an aid can go also go against you, as it could be argued that having an aid helps you with an activity, so you might get awarded fewer points. Describing exactly why you might need an aid in detail should be helpful, e.g. I purchased a silver ring splint for my thumb (I have recurrent trigger thumb) rather than contemplating steroid injections, which are contra-indicated with my disorder, or surgery. The devil is in the detail, as we all know.

  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    Yes, that’s why I was asking about aids, to do with the points. Even with bath grips fitted on my bath, & shower head on my taps. I need help washing my neck to bottom of my spine, help getting in and out of the bath, and washing my hair. Even help with getting dried 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    chiarieds said:
    There are pros & cons to mentioning aids.....if you bought something yourself, it doesn't necessarily mean you needed it, rather may have might bought it regardless. 
    Which is why you need to explain the difficulties and how the aid helps. Clearly if you just buy something for convenience that isn’t the same as needing it and it would not be appropriate to get points for having it.
    chiarieds said:
    Sometimes the use of an aid can go also go against you, as it could be argued that having an aid helps you with an activity, so you might get awarded fewer points. 
    If you can only do an activity with the help of aids you get points for needing the aids.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,222 Disability Gamechanger
    Not necessarily disagreeing with you @calcotti - if you need an aid & give a detailed explanation as to why, all should be well, as I mentioned, but it only gains a possible 2 points for each applicable descriptor. It can be argued that the OP mentions needing help to wash the upper half of their body, which gains 4 points, which it might be concluded that they may be able to do with the use of aids (that is if the aid is of low cost, & it could reasonably be expected therefore that it could be purchased, or perhaps it was already in the home they moved into?), might then result in just the 2 points.
    This is why I mentioned there are pros & cons in mentioning aids, & I have to agree with @janer1967 - if I bought a elbow crutches from Joe Bloggs, that does not intimate I need them. However if got them through a physio referral that would be of more relevance.
    Here the emphasis should surely be on the help the OP needs, whether received or not, with washing the upper half of their body, rather than aids. I seriously doubt mentioning a shower head on their taps is going to help.....
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    I agree @chiarieds but fear 9f being shot down I d7dnt say the showerhead I'm my opinion would even class as aid it is something anyone can use to make their bathing easier but the question is would washing hair be impossible with put this I would suggest not could use beaker etc 

    The aids i had on mine are all required to make even doing the task possible eg bath chair , or wheelchair or rails to get on off toilet 

    I rest my case lol
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,222 Disability Gamechanger
    I fear calcotti  has missed the point that perceived points in using an aid always matter, & can go both for & against you. Always reply due to your knowledge regardless @janer1967 . It's sometimes easier to disregard comments, but often worth fighting for if you have a comment that helps another, as you very often do. Hmmm doubt the use of a showerhead helps the OP.
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    edited March 23
    Janer, you should not refrain from saying what you think on my account (if your reticence was due to anything I said earlier). There are clearly differences of opinion.

    I agree that a shower head is not going to be counted as an aid. However the way it is used may, in my opinion, be relevant. I would argue, that only being able to wash some parts of the body by waving a shower head at them would be evidence of not being able to wash to the required standard if It’s not possible to reach those parts of the body to apply soap etc. without assistance.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    I don’t think @calcotti or @janer1967 have gotten anything wrong here. Aids score points. It’s vital to understand that mere ownership and usage of an aid will never suffice and that in particular buying your own aids will, without good detailed explanatory evidence, lead most decision makers to conclude that you’ve not established a need and could possibly be harming yourself e.g. using crutches originally obtained by a family member and set to the wrong height. Also valuable to remember that case law says something can be an aid for one descriptor but not another. Context abd detail is everything. 

    What I would say though is that, despite the above, you always mention aids and appliances on a PIP 2. Most successful PIP claims score low across a range of descriptors rather than high on two or three. An aid obtained from a non NHS source and set up or used wholly incorrectly can still suggest the need for an aid if the detail and context is there. There is rarely the luxury with a PIP claim to be able to throw possible points away. However, of equal importance is the more obvious point that if you omit information you are not presenting the full picture and allowing a DM the opportunity to infer that in withholding some information you may be withholding other information. 

    Culturally the fear of the DWP leads people to fear saying the wrong thing. There is rarely a wrong thing to be said. It’s the incomplete thing which does the damage every time. 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    @ponies

    I hope all the comments haven't confused you too much it has prompted lots of debate 

    Take from all the comments what you find useful and can use for your claim 

    Fingers crossed for you 
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    Yes I do find it confusing 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    I think the best from all of it is to explain all the help you get from others and the difficulties you have . Explain how the task is done and in order to do it the aids you use 

    Eg I need help to get in bath whi helps you how di they help you 

    I have hand rails to help support me 

    I need help washing who does this how do they do this 

    I cant wash my own hair again who does this how do they do it , why cant you do these things 

    And so on for all things you need help with be it someone or aids 

    This is just my opinion and how I would approach the form others may disagree 

    I just wanted to bring the thread back to what you was asking 
  • poniesponies Member Posts: 71 Connected
    yes agree, I will explain it all on the form. Thanks so much for your help
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,250 Pioneering
    janer1967 said: This is just my opinion and how I would approach the form others may disagree 
    Completely agree.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
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