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Do not resuscitate

lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
edited March 27 in Disabled people
On the news and on line people have been telling their story about how when they were taken into hospital with corona virus that the hospital have been putting  do not resuscitate  on their hospital file without consent 

I was wondering what people's thoughts are on this 


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  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,486 Disability Gamechanger
    I don't for one minute think they were putting DNR's on all CV patients just those who probably wouldn't recover, although it should always be done with permission/agreement. Both my mum and dad had DNR in their last couple of years, but it was always reviewed every 6 months.

    Basically I don't disagree with a DNR, and if I was unlikely to have any quality of life they could put one one me no problems.
    I do however think this is almost yesterdays news now.
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    @woodbine it's been on the news and online all day today thsts why I asked how people felt as a few people have told their stories  someone also on here had the same thing happen only just wanted to see whst people's point of view 
  • Sandy_123Sandy_123 Member Posts: 1,538 Pioneering
    @lisathomas50 it's a good debate. I'm unsure on DNAR on covid patients and who they decide on, but I do know from working in multidisplinary teams in the past, and before covid, DNAR was put on patients with out knowledge of family and patients and with out any agreement by patient or family. not every body alot were consented etc, but I have seen where it's just been done. Then debated by family and patients when they found out and some had them removed. 
    It can be the case where a Dr sees it's the right choice at the time, then later a patients health may improve and no longer needed. 
    I've also seen a Dr state on the DNAR that a patient is unable to understand, with out going into too much detail, this was challenged by staff, as said patient was fully  composmentos. 
    I agree in certain circumstances that DNAR are put in for good reasons, patients can also request one put in place also.
  • Caz_AlumniCaz_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 626 Pioneering
    edited March 27
    Thank you for highlighting this issue @lisathomas - and thanks to all those who have already contributed to this discussion. 

    I do think that this is an important topic - although I know that we will all be well aware just how emotive and difficult this might be for us all to talk about sometimes, particularly for anybody who has lost somebody to the Covid-19 pandemic. 

    In fact, this is something that has already been raised by some of our other community members. Plus, the Care Quality Commission (CQC) are currently conducting a review on this issue and in December 2020, they published an interim report which found that: 

    'at the beginning of the pandemic, a combination of unprecedented pressure on care providers and other issues may have led to decisions concerning DNR orders being incorrectly conflated with other clinical assessments around critical care.'

    The review is still ongoing and the final report is due to be published in early 2021. So, it may be that this debate will continue for some months to come. 

    In the meantime, perhaps this is something that we can and should keep talking about?  That way, it gives people the opportunity to tell their stories about their own experiences and share their thoughts on how they and their loved ones have been treated during the pandemic. A difficult conversation, I know - but sometimes we need to have difficult conversations to get answers to our questions.

    @Caz_Scope
    Online Community Coordinator (she/her)

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  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    @Caz_Scope thank you I also thought it was a good debate people don't think it happens people think it's our decision but it's not always the case 

    As sandy said this was happening pre covid but the pandemic has brought it to light a bit more 

    As people who have found that  they have a DNR on their medical records I under stand in some circumstances but I think it has been used to much now and it makes people wonder did these people that had a DNR on their medical records due to corona virus that weren't resuscitated  would they have lived if they had of tried 

    One lady thst has told her story said she has got lung damage caused by the corona virus and she got the corona virus after being admitted to hospital eith a severe asthma attack  she was very poorly and survived and found out she had a DNR on her medical records 

    When asked why they said her lungs were damaged because of asthma  and the corona virus has caused more damage they wouldn't be able to ventilate her if she stopped breathing  the lady has said thst she is now scared to go to hospital if she has an asthma attack becsuse she now thinks she won't be saved thryvwould let her die she has been told it will on her records the rest of her life and that even if she appealed to get it taken off she would lose she is only 53 years old 

    I know that the NHS are under pressure but I don't think all of the DNR put on people's medical records are necessary  thousands of people have got lung damage caused by the corona virus  including myself 

    I hope like myself that people carry on campaigning to stop this from happening  unless of course a patient has asked for a DNR to be put in place to many people could have died becsuse of this DNR on their records but may have been saved 

    It needs to be debated because everyone of us could be at risk of this happening without out knowledge 


  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    I am appealing against a DNR that was put on my records due to me haveing corona virus more than once  I am awaiting a chest exray  for a second opinion  
  • Caz_AlumniCaz_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 626 Pioneering
    edited March 29
    Hi @lisathomas50,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this and your experience. 

    All the best with your appeal on that decision and do let us know how you get on.

    @Caz_Scope
    Online Community Coordinator (she/her)

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  • Richard_ScopeRichard_Scope Posts: 2,838

    Scope community team

    I have spoken to 3 people during the pandemic who after hospital treatment for non-Covid-19 issues and found out that there was a DNR on their records, not requested by them! This is completely unacceptable.
    You can have them removed immediately. 
    Scope
    Specialist Information Officer - Cerebral Palsy

    Want to tell us about your experience on the community? Talk to our chatbot and let us know. 
  • Sandy_123Sandy_123 Member Posts: 1,538 Pioneering
    @Richard_Scope it's not good is it, I've seen them being put in place with out patients or families knowledge way before covid
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    Good debate 

    A dnr in my opinion should never be put on records unless discussed and agreed by doctor,  patient and family unless patient has no family or no capacity 

    Those who have had them placed due to covid should have them removed if they have recovered 

    Scary situations 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    @Richard_Scope I have had to go for appeal as I have had corona virus more than once  I already had lung damage caused by my lupus  I have to have a chest xray and a Mri  scan and I have to go from there 
  • Richard_ScopeRichard_Scope Posts: 2,838

    Scope community team

    @lisathomas50 you don't need to appeal. You have been told the wrong information. Unless somebody has power of attorney over you and your affairs?
    Scope
    Specialist Information Officer - Cerebral Palsy

    Want to tell us about your experience on the community? Talk to our chatbot and let us know. 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    @Richard_Scope I have a solicitor they have put me as a person with a terminal illness and that my lungs are to damaged to ventilate me if I stopped breathing my dr disagrees hence why I need the exray and mri  there are a few people in the same position no body has power of attorney over me I have got my mri tomorrow and my exray  so hopefuly it will be lifted I have lupus but I don't come under terminal illness as is on my records so two things realy need to come off 

    The lady who I mentioned above lost her appeal and the DNR remains so she is trying to take it further her case is different she has to have oxygen I dont I only have an inhaler if I need it  and a nebuliser if I need to use it  I was on oxygen the times I had corona virus never ventilated 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,620 Disability Gamechanger
    I have spoken to 3 people during the pandemic who after hospital treatment for non-Covid-19 issues and found out that there was a DNR on their records, not requested by them! This is completely unacceptable.
    You can have them removed immediately. 
    Same here. I've come across a number of people and read the stories of numerous others confirming that DNRs have been used without consent. Ultimately down to very poor guidance; undue pressure on medical professionals and a lot more but let's be very clear; this has been happening and if there weren't so many other things happening it would likely be a national scandal.  
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    Alot of people are campaigning to get it stopped  I try not to think to deeply about it as no one knows how many people weren't resuscitated  Mike it should be a national scandal however good or how ever much pressure NHS are under it shouldn't be happening 

    It was happening pre covid but covid has brought it to light a bit more 
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,486 Disability Gamechanger
    Isn't it most likely that many of those who had a DNR died anyway and would have done regardless?
    There are far worse "national scandals" imho
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,620 Disability Gamechanger
    No @woodbine the reason this has come to light is that the overwhelming majority absolutely did not die and in several cases came nowhere near doing so. Major issue around the guidance and consent. Absolutely a scandal by most definitions.
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,486 Disability Gamechanger
    I have nothing to add.
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • Sandy_123Sandy_123 Member Posts: 1,538 Pioneering
    @woodbine I know as I said before earlier people having DNAR put in place and perfectly fine, not on deaths door, also in cases where nothing can be done for a patient then yeah it's needed, that is a situation that cannot be helped, I've been in that situation when by boyfriend was dying and Dr asked me about dnar, even tho I knew nothing more to be done, I refused to be apart of it, and Dr said I can over rule it with out you, and that I told him was fine, which it was in that situation. 

  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Posts: 4,348 Disability Gamechanger
    If people bury their head in the sand and think its not happening then nothing will be done to stop it I was appaled abd shocked when I found out and I am certainly not ready to die yet 😑
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