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Assessment of Lies

erob12erob12 Member Posts: 12 Listener
Hi All,

sorry for the long winded post that is about to come,

So today the dreaded brown envelope dropped through the door, and I open it and find out they haven’t awarded my anything, I have been scored 0 on everything. 

Firstly they have said no breathlessness was noted in the assessment, yes I was constantly having to use my inhaler throughout as talking for long periods cause breathlessness. They have said I can walk half a mile, even though I told them I cannot walk down the 13 steps from my flat to the car which is parked less than a meter away from the steps without stopping and using my inhaler. I told them that I have regular asthma attacks and I require an ambulance at least twice a week and I have attacks that I can treat with my nebuliser which my partner has to set up as i obviously cannot do when I’m hardly breathing.

due to my bipolar currently being managed by my GP and my mental health nurse then have said that I am not a danger to myself or others. I am known by the crisis team at the local hospital, and I have had multiple section 136’s including a  28 day Section 2 as I was in such a depressive manic stage and was non compliant with treatment. As I cannot remember when I need to take my meds my partner has to make them up for me a week in advance and reminds me every time to take them, he also has to help me with my Insulin and helps me keep track of my blood sugars including working out how much insulin I need to take. I also have previously attempted suicide and this now means that my partner controls all my medications. 

They have said I showed now signs of severe anxiety or physiological distress, when asked about going out I said I needed my partner to come with me due to me not being able to go out on my own one for the fear that I am going to have another life threatening asthma attack, and when things are this bad I am unable to communicate in any way, also the thought of going out sends my heart rate through the roof and causes me to have panic attacks, they said because I am not on anxiety rescue medication which I cannot take due to being a brittle asthmatic, but I want asked about any medications for my anxiety. I cannot answer the door if I don’t know who it is, it took over 6 months to answer the door to the post man, and before that I had to send my partner. 

I suffer with osteopenia which limits how long I can sit, stand and walk, but again nothing of this was mentioned, I was asked about cooking food, I said I cannot cook a mean myself, one because I become easily distracted and have on many occasions walked away from the toaster and not realised that I’d forgotten about it until the smoke alarm goes off. Standing in the kitchen for anything longer than a few minutes is torture because the amount of pain I am in becomes unbearable, I also told them on some days the pain is so bad I cannot get out of bed!

This is only half of the story and apparently I don’t qualify for PIP, the whole situation is getting to me, if anyone can recommend a service that can check over the letter I am about to write asking for my MR it would be much appreciated. 

Replies

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi 

    Sorry to hear about your PIP 

    You need to contact welfare rights for help and advice 

    If you look it up you should be able to find your nearest one 
  • erob12erob12 Member Posts: 12 Listener
    janer1967 said:
    Hi 

    Sorry to hear about your PIP 

    You need to contact welfare rights for help and advice 

    If you look it up you should be able to find your nearest one 
    I’ll look them up thank you and I’m going to call them on Tuesday and ask to speak to the DM already started writing my letter which I hopefully can get sent off 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    Try and not focus on the report but on your account of giving examples of what happened last time you tried to do task , his you did it , who helps , any aids , if you cant do it why not , can you do it reliable,  safely,  repeatedly 

    What after affect does trying the task have 

    Remember the assessor gives their opinion on how you are   affected which isnt necessarily lies but how they perceive it based on what you tell them 
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 4,187

    Scope community team

    Hi @erob12

    Sorry to read about the outcome of your award, I hope the appeal goes well for you.

    Welfare Rights is a good place to contact, as is Advice Local and CAB too. I hope you have coping techniques in place to help manage your mental health during this time. 
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  • erob12erob12 Member Posts: 12 Listener
    @Ross_Scope

    I do i am very lucky my partner who has taken on being my full time carer has been amazing I can’t thank him enough, he was absolutely livid when he read the report and all the lies that were in it. 

    He’s been great and is helping fight this all the way
  • erob12erob12 Member Posts: 12 Listener
    janer1967 said:
    Try and not focus on the report but on your account of giving examples of what happened last time you tried to do task , his you did it , who helps , any aids , if you cant do it why not , can you do it reliable,  safely,  repeatedly 

    What after affect does trying the task have 

    Remember the assessor gives their opinion on how you are   affected which isnt necessarily lies but how they perceive it based on what you tell them 
    I will do thank you, and it’s more the things like I told them I cannot walk down the 13 steps to the car and they have said I’ve said I can walk half a mile with ease and could walk further if needed and there are many other things that I’ve been incorrectly quoted on saying hence why I’ve called it an assessment of lies but I completely understand what you are saying :) 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    Unfortunately and stupid as it is stairs are not considered in the descriptors

    Good luck with the mr and in finding some help 

    Let us know how you get on 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,637 Disability Gamechanger
    Several things to remember here.

    1 - The HCP is there to assess. They have no obligation to simply accept what you tell them. They hear what you have to say and weigh that up with everything else presented in order to form a view. So, there is nothing wrong you telling them about walking down steps etc. and then inferring a conclusion, which you don’t agree with, from that. 

    2 - As @janer1967 has already pointed out steps are not relevant when it comes to walking. Where we may differ is that I don’t think that stupid at all. As has been discussed elsewhere in here recently the ability to cycle does not mean you can walk. They are two different things. How you are on stairs says very little about how you are on the flat out of doors.

    3 - If you approach welfare rights it’s very unlikely they will focus on the HCP report and nor should you. You especially can’t call ot lies. That’s not a thing you can prove legally and you’ll get shot down very quickly if you try. You may be able to demonstrate factually inaccuracies but that’s not the same as lies and showing a weakness on their evidence doesn’t get you PIP if your evidence was weak to begin with.

    Put the HCP report out of your mind. Pretend it doesn’t exist and then look at your evidence in is isolation. Did you write enough on the PIP? If you didn’t completely fill every “extra information” box or add extra sheets then the answer is no. Did you provide at least one, preferably two, real world detailed incidents of what happened when you attempted each and every points scoring activity applicable to you? If not then you can fix that with your MR. 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq I didnt mean it is silly for stairs to not be included in walking 

    But I do think it should be included in the mobility section somewhere as for most people using stairs is a daily task and we come across stairs and steps everywhere 

    Not being able to negotiate steps and stairs has a huge impact on accessibility 

    I know there are many daily tasks not covered in the descriptors other than this which is why I think the whole criteria needs a review 

    Eg in WCA they dont even take into account if you are able to even leave the house . 

    Just my opinion of course 
  • erob12erob12 Member Posts: 12 Listener
    Several things to remember here.

    1 - The HCP is there to assess. They have no obligation to simply accept what you tell them. They hear what you have to say and weigh that up with everything else presented in order to form a view. So, there is nothing wrong you telling them about walking down steps etc. and then inferring a conclusion, which you don’t agree with, from that. 

    2 - As @janer1967 has already pointed out steps are not relevant when it comes to walking. Where we may differ is that I don’t think that stupid at all. As has been discussed elsewhere in here recently the ability to cycle does not mean you can walk. They are two different things. How you are on stairs says very little about how you are on the flat out of doors.

    3 - If you approach welfare rights it’s very unlikely they will focus on the HCP report and nor should you. You especially can’t call ot lies. That’s not a thing you can prove legally and you’ll get shot down very quickly if you try. You may be able to demonstrate factually inaccuracies but that’s not the same as lies and showing a weakness on their evidence doesn’t get you PIP if your evidence was weak to begin with.

    Put the HCP report out of your mind. Pretend it doesn’t exist and then look at your evidence in is isolation. Did you write enough on the PIP? If you didn’t completely fill every “extra information” box or add extra sheets then the answer is no. Did you provide at least one, preferably two, real world detailed incidents of what happened when you attempted each and every points scoring activity applicable to you? If not then you can fix that with your MR. 
    Thank you for you advice I’ve already started putting things together. I will forget about the report but I will use it to point out the inaccuracies that there is and I’ve got my partner and his mum as I lived with them for a year and they know how much I’m affected by everything to write statements and my key workers, Asthma nurse, Diabetes nurse etc. I have got a recording of the call so I so I’ll be able to point out the lie about the distance as they have specifically quoted me as saying I can walk half a mile or more if needed when I know I didn’t as I said I get out of breath getting out of bed or off the sofa and walking to the toilet which is approximately 6/7 meters from both rooms. The recording was made with IAS consent 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,637 Disability Gamechanger
    @janer1967 it’s a misunderstanding of what the descriptors are about. The intent was never to include a huge range of tasks. Merely a representative cross section and (arguably) especially those associated with extra cost. 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    I get that mike I just think some fundamental areas are not included but as I said that is my opinion 

    Have to agree to disagree but I do understand where you are coming from 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,637 Disability Gamechanger
    So my question then would be around what it is specifically you think is offered by W descriptor involving stairs which isn’t covered elsewhere?

    Asking not to be provocative but because of course the original list were compiled by committee and there was some dispute at the time so it’s interesting to hear 8 years down the line where people think the gaps are.

    Especially interesting as I’m used to pointing out how certain activities absolutely cover activities people think they don’t.
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    I had no idea 8 years ago what PIP was or what was involved so I cant comment on that and the committee that were involved 

    My view about stairs is that it isnt just a matter of stairs in the home its stairs everywhere eg entrance to shops,  buildings,  toilets,  I cant even get in my local chemist or dentist 

    So I just think it should be included in the mobility section 

    It may be covered as such in the not bring able to go out on your own but even if I ho out with someone I still cant get up the stairs 

    A good debate I understand your side too but you have a very good understanding of where it would be applicable not like the average person putting in a claim 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,637 Disability Gamechanger
    Okay. Interesting. I get that for you it’s about stuff you do often but the context is functional loss i.e. that’s what PIP is about. So the question then is whether there is a functional loss which shows up when you look at the use of stairs which doesn’t show up when you look at other activities. I’m not sure there is because:

    - breathlessness would show up on mobility. It would also show up on dressing and toileting and may even show up on communication.
    - tiredness through physical movement would show up on bathing, toileting, dressing, mobility.
    - pain through movement would show up on bathing, mobility, dressing, toileting etc.

    Thats why I say it’s not needed. People think PIP is about showing all the things they cannot do. It is, but indirectly. Not by looking at tiny asked us of everything you do. PIP want to assess the impact of breathlessness, tiredness and pain but they don’t need stairs to do that. They already have all these other things. 
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,201 Disability Gamechanger
    Interesting again and get your explanation in this example 

    In my example there is no pain,  no breathlessness and no tiredness or other effects it is just phydically impossible so is that not loss of function 

    We could carry this on all day I do understand your perspective and it is helpful to get better understanding for myself but I still hold my viewpoint 


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,637 Disability Gamechanger
    You’re going to need to explain what prevents the use of stairs if it’s not pain, breathlessness or tiredness. My betting is that whatever that is will most likely be comprehensively covered in the existing descriptors.
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