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UC over payment of £14k help

u08cad

I used to get wtc against a part time job and self employed income on the side. Lost my job May 20 due to stroke and commenced se after 2 months off. CAB told me to apply UC. I rent a property and have a flat I was trying to sell. I listed the flat for sale in August, let go of tenants, paid Council tax on it being empty handed keys into estate agent, reduced the price etc. DM 1 had a lengthy discussion accepted it as discounted capital. She was made aware it has been in the market in 2015/16 but since Oct 17 had tenants in as gave up all attempts to sell as I had lost my job so couldn’t obtain a mortgage to buy something else so was futile selling. I was on WTC at that time. No you asked me about the flat again. In May they awarded me lcwra after a ten month delay. In June I was asked a couple of questions on the journal re the flat which I replied to saying price was reduced further and cosmetic repairs done. A few viewings etc. Then DM 2 says we’ve decided we shouldn’t have paid you UC since jan 21 we were meant to review the flat as capital in jan sorry the review is 6 months late. I protest asking if I’m meant to pay it all back snd saying that can’t be right so ask for MR. DM 3 comes along says we stick by what we said in Decision 2 we should NEVER have discounted it as capital we shouldn’t have paid you UC since June 20!!! Then they closed clsim and want £13700 back. But DM 2 didn’t dispute DM 1 she called it a change in circumstances and used jan 21 NOT june 20?! Also I could have just stayed on wtc as lost my job but still had se income and was only without se income for 12 weeks. Since read could have had 28 break in working and stayed on wtc. Can I backdate wtc claim as should never have been put on UC. Can UC do this they claim original DM did not have the info on form a64 that property had been for sale in 2015 but clearly they did because it is mentioned as evidence elsewhere in the decision and That fact is clearly stated on it. I only filled out ONE A64 a and had lengthy discussion with 1st DM.
I am out of mind as what to do.

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Comments

calcotti

You cannot get back on Tax Credits having claimed UC. No one ‘put you’ on UC, you applied for it and the application ended your Tax Credits.

The Mandatory Reconsideration Notice should explain your appeal rights to take the decision to tribunal.

The rules allow for a property that is up for sale to be disregarded for six months, or longer if DWP consider it reasonable to do so. Unfortunately, if the property was tenanted at the time you applied for UC and not up for sale I think it probably should not have been disregarded. More unfortunately even if DWP have made a mistake the law says that any overpayment of UC is recoverable,

u08cad

It wasn’t tenanted at the time I applied. I put it up for sale because I had had a stroke and couldn’t deal with renting it as I live 400 miles away from the property

u08cad

I cannot or could not use it to generate money. It was empty untenanted and put up for sale at estate agent.

u08cad

sorry sorry just checked I applied uc in July and it was backdated to June and it was July it was relisted for sale at estate agent it took a month to get paperwork in order and make arrangements as I was very unwell after the stroke it wasn’t august everything happened July. There were no tenants in it as it had already been empty due to Covid.

calcotti

u08cad said:

sorry sorry just checked I applied uc in July and it was backdated to June and it was July it was relisted for sale at estate agent it took a month to get paperwork in order and make arrangements as I was very unwell after the stroke it wasn’t august everything happened July. There were no tenants in it as it had already been empty due to Covid.

In which case it would appear to meet the conditions for a disregard for at least six months which would get you to January 2021. At they point they have discretion to extend the disregard. I don't think the fact that it was previously on the market in 2015 is relevant if it has been off the market in between.

So, If you haven't had a Mandatory Reconsideration then you need to request one. If you have had a Mandatory Reconsideration, then you need to appeal to a tribunal.

Review all the information you have regarding the history of the property and your efforts to sell it. If you have anything you haven't yet given to DWP then include as extra information.

u08cad

I’ve done all that. I’m just looking for some hope that Tribunal will see sense and that the system and Tribunal system works and doesn’t take forever.

u08cad

That is easy to say when you aren’t the one tired of fighting the system. They wouldn’t even let me upload any evidence on my journal re the MR. There is a clear chronological argument and there always has been. But being a tired single mum who had a stroke and trying to recover and who is lwcra and is now worrying about what to live off until this gets as far as a tribunal is not easy. It’s not like I can demand that someone buys the flat tomorrow and pays for it tomorrow.

u08cad

I am seeking advice from all places which is why I came here. But clearly this is not the place to look for advice or support. It is ‘fighting the system’ when I have done nothing wrong. I sought extensive advice regarding this issue so I claimed the correct benefit and didn’t breach any rules. When 3 separate decision makers have made three separate decisions and arrived at three separate decisions and this may have cost you £14000 plus put my mental health down the pan and threat of survival of what myself and my 6 year old son will now live off them yes it does feel very much like fighting the system. And they wonder why uc claimants commit suicide and end up unwell. Forgive me for not using the correct turn of phrase for you. It feels like a fight to me. It’s not like I have committed benefit fraud. I have followed what UC asked and advised me to do. And forgive me for worrying. When you’ve walked a mile in my shoes then you can tell me not to worry. Thanks anyway.

u08cad

And I have done another MR against the repayment decision. It is the capital decision which is now at Tribunal. But I have no faith that they care about the impact.

Ross_Alumni

Hello @u08cad

Welcome to the community, I hope you are well.

I'm sorry to hear that you suffered a stroke, how is your recovery from that going? Have you received all the support you need from medical professionals after the event?

How is your son doing at the minute? Do you receive any support from any loved one to help you during these challenging times?

It appears as though everything you've been through has had an impact on your mental health, do you receive any support from your GP to effectively manage it? It's important that you look after your mental well-being and I hope you have coping techniques in place to help you during rough moments.

I'm sorry to hear that you aren't happy with the advice offered by other users, it's important to note that sometimes words read through an online forum can often come across differently than they are intended. I'm sure that nobody here wants to upset you and we all want the best for you.

u08cad

Thank you. I am struggling and actively ‘in crisis’ as the gp out it. Running the Merry go round of appeals, paperwork etc is incredibly stressful. Not to mention many other things in life which have gone to tribunal this year and my little dog being mauled two weeks ago and the owner refusing to pay the vet bills. It feels like life is one big battle. I wish people would choose their words more carefully. It is bad enough UC trying to lay blame at my door when I have been open and honest about the property from day 1. And being misadvised to claim UC by various benefit advisors including UC themselves is vastly different from ME CHOOSING a course of foolhardy action thus causing the problem myself which is completely different. Being told someone has backdated a decision by a year and making you question your own sanity and leaving a single parent with no life line is horrific and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. I have no relatives who support me with my son and his dad also lives 400 miles away and owes £5k in child maintenance arrears. I was hoping somebody else could shed any light on whether such a huge overpayment that I have not caused and to which no new information has been provided to the DM is valid, whether they are likely to waive it and if the fact they reviewed a decision 6 months late is valid. It seems there is a lot of jargon as to whether a decision is a supercession or supercedes a decision or is a review and what that means for dates. But I guess that is quite technical info that will have to wait for a tribunal.

janer1967

Hi there

I am really sorry for everything you are going through

I can't give you any advice related to your over payment issue far too complex for me

But I can empathise being a single mum and in past close to becoming homeless and my sons dad not having contributed a penny in maintenance or having no part in his life

Things are lots better now 4 year's on

Have faith it will come good

Usually around if you just want to rant

Ross_Alumni

Hi @u08cad

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry to hear you're in Crisis, but I'm glad at least that you have support from your GP. Do ensure you speak with them or the Crisis team if you ever feel as though your mental health is becoming difficult to manage. Furthermore, Mind have lots of useful resources that can help a person in crisis such as yourself, this page of coping methods for example is always really helpful.

A couple of other places you could contact should you need support:

Samaritans, who you can contact any time on 116 123
The Shout text service, which you can access by texting "Shout" to 85258

How is your child coping at the minute? Are they okay?

I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your dog, that sounds awful. You clearly have a lot going on at the moment, please ensure you try and find some time to relax and do something you enjoy, it's so important in order to relive some of the pressure you're under.

Do get in touch with us at community@scope.org.uk if you want to chat further about anything, or if you'd like us to explore what local support we could find for you.

It might be worth contacting your local Welfare Rights, or seeking some help through Advice Local, for your benefit concerns.

u08cad

My child is as ok as can be when money is so tight. I had just had to cancel his football and Beavers and any idea of getting to Scotland to visit his Dad or sort the flat due to my health and the vet bills then this. He knows to finish everything on his plate because we simply cannot waste food and he knows not to expect much for his birthday. I guess at his age as long as they are fed it is ok

u08cad

Thank you Jane. For the last 6 years I have been nothing but resilient so it is not a wee rant for the sake of it. People really do get exhausted from ‘the system’ whether it is CMS/UC/PIP other legal matters/NHS.

Things had just been looking up again after being dreadful 3 or 4 years ago and now this. No choice but to plod on xx

janer1967

Children can be more resilient than we give them credit for and accept change..

Your love support and protection are more important than material things

But I know how heart breaking it is to have to say no to him

If his dad wants to see him he should pay the expenses

Keep strong it will get better even though it feels everything is against you currently

u08cad

Ok I agree with some of what you are saying and not with some of what you are saying so just leave it there. I am arguing that it shouldn’t have taken them 6 months to review a decision they should have made in January. And there are multiple things about the journal that don’t make sense. Like the 3rd decision saying the second decision stands but the second one didn’t disagree with the first decision at all they simply decided that at 6 months it should have counted as capital and as per the rules. They called it a change of circumstance I was led to believe this was a supercession which looks forward but wasn’t sure if the effective date could be 6 months ago. I am trying to get to grip with the guidance but as UC keep contradicting themselves it is difficult to know what they should have done. It also made a reference to a form and said that they changed the original decision because they didn’t have access to the info the first time but they did. There is no new information they have missed out a huge chunk of facts and interpreted it differently. The overpayment is currently with mandatory reconsideration done verbally so again I can’t argue much as the call handler just raised it herself as my journal is closed so I can only call the helpline. The only local help I can find is Citizens advice I can’t find any other local representatives. Who usually take this type of work on? Are citizens advice able to handle this sort of thing because I’ve not found them great in the past.

u08cad

And incase you hadn’t noticed I have been very much trying to get to grips with the the technical issues. I have spoke to a friend who works with dwp and have read the CPAG reports and have downloaded a copy of the universal credit guidance but it is incredibly technical and like you say I have no representation because I don’t know how to find anything. The welfare rights page doesn’t point me to anything local just citizens advice and we don’t even have a proper local office and I haven’t found them great in the past. Judging where you think I’m coming from and telling me to get my head together isn’t hugely helpful because that is exactly what I HAVE been doing. I’ve successfully won a wtc credit tribunal in the past and a CICA tribunal. I’m just finding this particular one way too technical. Thank you for the technical points you have raised they are good pointers for where to start. But I will wear my badge of fighting the system because it has worked for me in the past and given me the tenacity to not give up and get to the bottom of what is needed. We all have our own journeys and the way I look at things is as valid as the way you look at them. But as you say the crux is in the technicalities which is what I’m trying to get to the bottom of.

Peter99

@u08cad
I am so sorry for what you are going through but try to see what Mike is saying. Please don't give up. Perhaps you should try and read up on the circumstances why a second home should be disregarded for the purpose of entitlement to UC. Build up your own narrative and anecdotal. Good luck.

Beesmummy798

@u08cad I can't advise sorry but I can sympathise with your circumstances. I have a 4 year old son and life is a daily struggle financially, physically, mentally etc. I can't even, at times, buy him diluted orange juice at 60p and instead he thinks it's his birthday when I do. So I def can sympathise on that issue. @Username_removed is only trying to help and guide you, his explanations are both factual and to the point. He won't beat around the bush, he will get to the point. If you read his posts there's nothing personal that's directed to you. You will get good info out of it.
Everyone is trying to help out in their own way x