Legacy benefits to Universal Credit — Scope | Disability forum
New to the community? Remember to read our community guidelines and our community house rules.
Concerned about another member's safety or wellbeing? Find out how to let us know.

Legacy benefits to Universal Credit

tcellmutation
tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
edited October 8 in Universal Credit (UC)
Hello, I currently receive legacy benefits which includes Severe Disability Premium.

I understand that they plan for everyone on legacy benefits to move onto Universal Credit by September 2024 and people will be invited to move over.

I understand that if it's a managed migration I won't lose out on any money but if I have a change of circumstances that triggers a move to Universal Credit I will lose out on money 

My question is, if I am invited to move to Universal Credit before September 2024 can I refuse the invite and stay on legacy benefits until the very last minute (September 2024)?

Thanks 🙂
Tagged:

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    Managed migration hasn't even started yet and when it does, it could be quite a few years before you're asked to apply. Once you've been invited you will have 1 month to start you're claim. If you don't start your claim by the deadline your existing benefits will stop. When you then claim UC you will not receive any transitional protection and if a health condition provents you from working you will need to send in fit notes to start the work capability assessment process off.
    If a change of circumstances prompts a move before then, you will receive a SDP transitional element.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    Managed migration is not an invitation. It will happen whether you like it or not. There is every possibility some people will lose in the process. You will not get an invite before managed migration unless you have a relevant change of circumstances which ends your entitlement to legacy points. If that happens there is still no invitation. The choice on whether to claim UC will be up to you. 

    All that said, the chances of managed migration happening in 2024 are slim.  
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    The OBR previously based their forecasts on an assumption that managed migration would not complete until 2026 but that was pre pandemic.

    At the time of managed migration the transitional protection should ensure that you do not lose benefit at the date of transfer.

    If you 'naturally' migrate prior to that then, although you would get the SDP transitional element (if you meet the conditions for it), you would likely be a bit worse off.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    edited October 6
    Managed migration hasn't even started yet and when it does, it could be quite a few years before you're asked to apply. Once you've been invited you will have 1 month to start you're claim. If you don't start your claim by the deadline your existing benefits will stop. When you then claim UC you will not receive any transitional protection and if a health condition provents you from working you will need to send in fit notes to start the work capability assessment process off.
    If a change of circumstances prompts a move before then, you will receive a SDP transitional element.
    This is the info I have

    Is there anyone who cannot claim Universal Credit?

    You can’t get Universal Credit if you are getting, or recently stopped getting a benefit with a severe disability premium (SDP). If you are or have been getting SDP you can still apply for legacy benefits.

    To get an SDP with a benefit, you must also get a disability benefit like Personal Independence Payment (PIP) or Attendance Allowance.

    You might get an SDP with:
    income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance
    income-related Employment and Support Allowance
    Income Support
    Housing Benefit
    Check your benefit award letter to see if you are getting an SDP – it usually says you are entitled ‘because you are severely disabled’. Check if you could get an SDP.

    Will I be worse off on Universal Credit?

    If you move to Universal Credit as part of the managed migration process you will receive a transitional protection payment. This makes sure people who are moved on to Universal Credit by the DWP don't get less money.

    If you choose to move to Universal Credit or move as a result of a change in circumstances you will not get the ‘transitional protection’ payment, therefore may be worse off on Universal Credit
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    edited October 6
    calcotti said:
    The OBR previously based their forecasts on an assumption that managed migration would not complete until 2026 but that was pre pandemic.

    At the time of managed migration the transitional protection should ensure that you do not lose benefit at the date of transfer.

    If you 'naturally' migrate prior to that then, although you would get the SDP transitional element (if you meet the conditions for it), you would likely be a bit worse off.

    I think you are wrong because it clearly states I will not be worse off. Thanks tho
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 6
    The information you have that prevents those who are claiming SDP from claiming UC, not longer exists and this ended on 27th January 2021. See link. https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/severe-disability-premium
    As advised, if a change of circumstances prompts a move, if you still qualify for the SDP you will receive the SDP transitional element in with your UC entitlement but this erodes over time so if other elements increase the SDPTE decreases. The same applied when people transfered from Incapacity benefit to ESA.
    Managed migration hasn't started yet so transitional protection doesn't exist.


  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 6
    calcotti said:
    The OBR previously based their forecasts on an assumption that managed migration would not complete until 2026 but that was pre pandemic.

    At the time of managed migration the transitional protection should ensure that you do not lose benefit at the date of transfer.

    If you 'naturally' migrate prior to that then, although you would get the SDP transitional element (if you meet the conditions for it), you would likely be a bit worse off.

    I think you are wrong because it clearly states I will not be worse off. Thanks tho
    As advised, that is correct for managed migration but not necessarily for natural migration.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    calcotti said:
    The OBR previously based their forecasts on an assumption that managed migration would not complete until 2026 but that was pre pandemic.

    At the time of managed migration the transitional protection should ensure that you do not lose benefit at the date of transfer.

    If you 'naturally' migrate prior to that then, although you would get the SDP transitional element (if you meet the conditions for it), you would likely be a bit worse off.

    I think you are wrong because it clearly states I will not be worse off. Thanks tho

    For natural migration then calcotti is correct, you will very likely be worse off.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    Literally tens of thousands already worse off on UC. Don't believe the propaganda. 

    Also worth saying that if you are on certain legacy benefits then there are some circumstances in which managed migration will never apply provided you have no change of circumstances, which in reality is a hard trick to pull of as life is one long change of circumstances.  
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    edited October 6
    Literally tens of thousands already worse off on UC. Don't believe the propaganda. 

    Also worth saying that if you are on certain legacy benefits then there are some circumstances in which managed migration will never apply provided you have no change of circumstances, which in reality is a hard trick to pull of as life is one long change of circumstances.  

    What are those certain benefits you refer to?
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    calcotti said:
    The OBR previously based their forecasts on an assumption that managed migration would not complete until 2026 but that was pre pandemic.

    At the time of managed migration the transitional protection should ensure that you do not lose benefit at the date of transfer.

    If you 'naturally' migrate prior to that then, although you would get the SDP transitional element (if you meet the conditions for it), you would likely be a bit worse off.

    I think you are wrong because it clearly states I will not be worse off. Thanks tho

    For natural migration then calcotti is correct, you will very likely be worse off.

    Natural migration meaning a change of circumstances?
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, natural migration means a change of circumstances. 

    As regard legacy benefits the most obvious one is contributory ESA. A claimant who has been on that for some time i.e. it's not so-called new style ESA and who has a change of circumstances could simply ask to add on means-tested ESA. UC doesn't even enter into the equation. Same with JSA. 
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, natural migration means a change of circumstances. 

    As regard legacy benefits the most obvious one is contributory ESA. A claimant who has been on that for some time i.e. it's not so-called new style ESA and who has a change of circumstances could simply ask to add on means-tested ESA. UC doesn't even enter into the equation. Same with JSA. 
    Presumably however if, once managed migration is complete, a contribution based ESA claimant asked to have income based ESA added they could immediately be told this is time limited and 'invited' to apply for UC.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope. They might be told that but it would be wrong. The thing which ends legacy ESA and leaves UC as the only option is a new claim to ESA or UC. A claimant in receipt of contributory legacy ESA is not making a new claim for means-tested ESA as it's well-established case law that ESA is one benefit with two arms. I know this especially well as although I'm no longer cited as the lead case on this it was my case which created the original case law upon which the subsequent successful test cases were founded. 

    By coincidence there is a great article on this in CPAGs Welfare Rights Bulletin. 

    At present there is no legislation in place which would end this scenario because of managed migration or as part of managed migration. Someone who for example stays on solely contributory ESA well past managed migration and then needs to claim a means-tested top up would be able to claim legacy ESA as there is nothing currently which compels otherwise. That would potentially include people found fit for work who lose contrib ESA but subsequently win it back as part of a challenge. Provided they don't make a fresh claim for ESA or UC when their benefit stops they would pick up where they left off. 


  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope. They might be told that but it would be wrong. The thing which ends legacy ESA and leaves UC as the only option is a new claim to ESA or UC. A claimant in receipt of contributory legacy ESA is not making a new claim for means-tested ESA as it's well-established case law that ESA is one benefit with two arms. 
    I am well aware of that (especially with regard to the IB to ESA transfer fiasco). I am also well aware that somebody on C-ESA can remain on it and will not be managed onto UC. Neither of these are what I was speculating about.

    What I am supposing is that as all income based ESA claimants will be told their income based ESA will end and will be 'invited' to apply for UC, in future, if a C-ESA claimant applies to have I-ESA added they will then be treated as an I-ESA claimant to be migrated across to UC.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    This is all Greek to me
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    This is all Greek to me
    Sorry, we have strayed slightly off topic.
    However I think your original question has been answered.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    edited October 6
    calcotti said:
    This is all Greek to me
    Sorry, we have strayed slightly off topic.
    However I think your original question has been answered.

    Insightful 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    calcotti said:
    Nope. They might be told that but it would be wrong. The thing which ends legacy ESA and leaves UC as the only option is a new claim to ESA or UC. A claimant in receipt of contributory legacy ESA is not making a new claim for means-tested ESA as it's well-established case law that ESA is one benefit with two arms. 
    I am well aware of that (especially with regard to the IB to ESA transfer fiasco). I am also well aware that somebody on C-ESA can remain on it and will not be managed onto UC. Neither of these are what I was speculating about.

    What I am supposing is that as all income based ESA claimants will be told their income based ESA will end and will be 'invited' to apply for UC, in future, if a C-ESA claimant applies to have I-ESA added they will then be treated as an I-ESA claimant to be migrated across to UC.
    Yes I was aware of that and what I’m saying is that it will require a legislative change as at present there is no power to do that. It also doesn’t appear to be anyone’s radar as the general belief is that no-one will be in that position. I think that’s bonkers. It’s going to be relevant for mixed age couples and more.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    mikehughescq said:.. it will require a legislative change as at present there is no power to do that. 
    No doubt that will come in due course - they aren’t going to want a rump of legacy income based benefits to administer.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 6
    calcotti said:
    mikehughescq said:.. it will require a legislative change as at present there is no power to do that. 
    No doubt that will come in due course - they aren’t going to want a rump of legacy income based benefits to administer.
    Personal opinion but I think they have and will let it go. We calculated at one point that UC effectively creates 18 different benefit systems. Simplification always produces complexity and always has. If they wanted to tackle the many tracks people are currently on then they could do so but the complexity of the legislation needed is untenable and managed migration won’t change that. 

    The other side of it is that the total separation of UC IT and legacy IT brilliantly means they have lost track of a lot of this stuff and don’t even know the scale of a lot of these issues. There are a lot of stats on legacy claimants which say zero exist and yet they most certainly still exist. 
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 7
    mikehughescq said:..Simplification always produces complexity and always has. 
    The rule of unintended (but predictable) consequences!
    mikehughescq said: There are a lot of stats on legacy claimants which say zero exist and yet they most certainly still exist. 
    Indeed they do (but increasingly I am getting forgetful of some of the rules especially for Tax Credits).
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    I think that’s forgivable. I would say I never really knew them in the first place. 
  • Marie12
    Marie12 Member Posts: 13 Courageous
    Does anyone including HMRC really know how tax credits should (supposedly) operate? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    Marie12 said:
    Does anyone including HMRC really know how tax credits should (supposedly) operate? 

    You've posted your question on the end of thread related to Universal Credit. It would be better to start your own thread and give a little more information and then i'm sure someone can help you further.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    I thought it was a passing comment @poppy123456 rather than an actual question. Triggered by @calcotti and I wandering off topic.

    Assuming it was a rhetorical question the answer is that HMRC are a basket case organisation and no longer appear to have a grip on how anything works. The clear outcome of privatisation.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq thanks for that. I must admit, although i claimed tax credits for many years while my children were students, i have very little knowledge about them.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    I’ll bet I have less :) Absolutely a weak point for me. 
  • tcellmutation
    tcellmutation Member Posts: 190 Pioneering
    Still all Greek to me
  • Marie12
    Marie12 Member Posts: 13 Courageous
    I thought it was a passing comment @poppy123456 rather than an actual question. Triggered by @calcotti and I wandering off topic.

    Assuming it was a rhetorical question the answer is that HMRC are a basket case organisation and no longer appear to have a grip on how anything works. The clear outcome of privatisation.
    Indeed
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,069 Disability Gamechanger
    I’ll bet I have less :) Absolutely a weak point for me. 
    When I said i was forgetting what I knew about Tax Credits I should perhaps have said what little I previously knew!
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,538 Disability Gamechanger
    Looking forward to the foolish poster who steps forward and says “I used to work for HMRC”.  :#
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,909 Disability Gamechanger
    Looking forward to the foolish poster who steps forward and says “I used to work for HMRC”.  :#

    :D

Brightness

Do you need advice on your energy costs?


Scope’s Disability Energy Support service is open to any disabled household in England or Wales in which one or more disabled people live. You can get free advice from an expert adviser on managing energy debt, switching tariffs, contacting your supplier and more. Find out more information by visiting our
Disability Energy Support webpage.

Fancy a chat in our virtual coffee lounge?

Put the kettle on and have a chat in our coffee lounge with other members. We talk about hobbies, games and anything else you can think of!

Cerebral Palsy (CP) Online Cafe

Here's a new opportunity for people with CP or a similar disability (aged 20+) to get together and chat. The sessions are in partnership with CP Sport so you can find out more and meet people from both organisations.

Are you struggling?

Read our 'Coping with stress, low mood and isolation' support thread for a run-down of ideas on how to banish those blues and feel happier.

What do you think about the community?

Complete our feedback form and tell us how we can make the community a better space for you.

Information about COVID-19

If you have questions about the virus, please read our information and support which includes guidance on benefits, getting food and essentials and Cerebral Palsy.

Back to school this September?

Read tips on how to settle back in and handle any worries you or your children might be having this new term.